Are the Frey's really look down on before the Red Wedding ?

[the trees have eyes]

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

to play devil's advocate , what poor old Walder did at Trident wasn't that different from how Tywin Lannister sat tight for the whole war till he moved his ass to sack a rich city , murder kids and propose a marriage alliance for his daughter... but no one in Westeros calls him Late Lord Tywin! granted though, Walder was no big scary Hand for years Tywin Lannister. what is ironic is that if Walder never moved his troops and instead announced neutrality in war , he wouldn't have been scolded quite as much.

It's really not that different, no.  Which would no doubt make poor old Walder positively apoplectic. 

Problem is the Lannisters are well-established (Kings of the Rock of old and Lords Paramount in the Westlands) and hold all the Westlands in check behind them during the Robellion.  So it looks like considered statesmanship, if cynical.  Walder is merely a Tully bannerman and sits on the fence unlike the Targaryen loyalists like the Goodbrooks and Darrys or the rest who follow Hoster Tully.  It's hard to be the odd one out and not attract scorn. 

The Lannisters have the prestige and the power that Walder lacks and do eventually come off the fence and get their hands dirty even if at the eleventh hour.  Walder doesn't and just looks like a cynical opportunist.  Which is what he is of course. 

Idk if principled neutrality wins you much respect in medieval warfare.  It's a feudal pyramid and unless you are at the very top you owe loyalty somewhere and pay homage to someone, i.e. promise military service in return for the lands you hold.  The conflict between the immediate oath to your direct lord and the ultimate loyalty you owe the monarch is played on in the series but abandoning both wouldn't win many admirers.

[EggBlue]

23 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Idk if principled neutrality wins you much respect in medieval warfare.  It's a feudal pyramid and unless you are at the very top you owe loyalty somewhere and pay homage to someone, i.e. promise military service in return for the lands you hold.  The conflict between the immediate oath to your direct lord and the ultimate loyalty you owe the monarch is played on in the series but abandoning both wouldn't win many admirers.

not many admirers but a little less hate! Walder is like the teammate who shows up at the very end of the project and expects gratitude and full credit 

[M.Alhazred]

They were beneath the other houses notice.

[the trees have eyes]

On 5/15/2022 at 10:38 PM, EggBlue said:

not many admirers but a little less hate! Walder is like the teammate who shows up at the very end of the project and expects gratitude and full credit 

Hmm, I've worked with some of those...

But if the project manager was Ivan the Terrible or Vlad the Impaler what followed would be memorable but it wouldn't be pretty 

[Lee-Sensei]

On 5/13/2022 at 5:40 PM, Thedog said:

The difference between the Tyrells (and the Tullys who were a minor house compared to the Blackwoods and the Brackens) is that they became lords paramount of one of the seven kingdoms. I appreciate that that the Hightowers Florents, Peakes, and even Osgreys have a better pedigree than Tyrell, but they are required to owe their fealty to House Tyrell. Accordingly they either need to accept that House Tyrell is either equal or their own honor will be lowered by having to bend the knee to a lesser house. No one now doubts the honor/prestige of Baratheon, and they were founded by a bastard only 300 years ago. 

House Baratheon is seen as a continuation of House Durrandon. Olenna says as much when she points out that the Lannisters, Starks, Arryns and Baratheons were royal families before.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 5/13/2022 at 3:52 PM, Thedog said:

There are definitely tiers of noble houses. The top tier are the lords paramount (Tully, Lannister, Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Martel, Tyrell). In Targaryen era Hightower and Velaryon were also in this tier and Velaryon might be in a tier above with Baratheon based on how often they married into the royal family.  

Then their is the tier of powerful lords whose families produce hands of the king/numerous small counsel members (note: obviously people of low nobility or even common birth could rise to the small counsel through ability, but generally these roles went to the same group of families) or could be matches for princes/princesses. I would also include in this tier powerful families who are old and powerful regionally. This would include the nine families above and families like Manderly, Butterwell (pre-Blackfyre), Peake (pre-Blackfyre), Celtigar, Royce, Rowan. 

Frey I would put in the third tier. Powerful family, but is not as prestigious to be considered for a court position. When a Frey was marrying Lord Butterwell, this was seen as Butterwell marrying down. Plus, it doesn’t seem like a Frey’s were ever considered to be a match in marriage for a Targaryen. Nor were the Targaryens recruiting Freys for roles on the small counsel or as hand of the king. 

families from tier 3 could marry tier 2 or even occasionally tier 1 (see Freys marrying Lannisters). But they would never be considered as a match for a prince or princess. 

so yes, I do think Frey was right to think he was looked down upon. 

I don't remember them saying that a Butterwell was a marrying down to a Frey. The Freys were a Tier 2 house.

[Rosetta Stone]

Robert, the Starks, Tully, and the more ancient families were looking down on the Freys. 

On 5/15/2022 at 1:05 PM, EggBlue said:

to play devil's advocate , what poor old Walder did at Trident wasn't that different from how Tywin Lannister sat tight for the whole war till he moved his ass to sack a rich city , murder kids and propose a marriage alliance for his daughter... but no one in Westeros calls him Late Lord Tywin! granted though, Walder was no big scary Hand for years Tywin Lannister. what is ironic is that if Walder never moved his troops and instead announced neutrality in war , he wouldn't have been scolded quite as much.

It is certain that many hated Tywin.  They were only afraid to say it.