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Your Opinions 4: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"


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@Jaenara Belarys I hadn't seen u for so long , I thought you have forgotten all about us and our favorite thread

20 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The reveal that Joffrey was the one who sent the catspaw after Bran was so anticlimactic that many fans still don't believe that it's true. Can't really blame them on this one.

really? I thought that was fitting .

 

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

@Jaenara Belarys I hadn't seen u for so long , I thought you have forgotten all about us and our favorite thread

really? I thought that was fitting .

 

There are hundreds of pages on the web about why it makes little sense that it was joff that tried to kill bran. 

 

Kind of like there is a lot of controversy about ollena and lf plotting to kill joff together. 

 

Grrm really dropped the ball here. 

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4 hours ago, divica said:

Kind of like there is a lot of controversy about Ollena and LF plotting to kill Joff together. 

Personally, I don't have as much of an issue with this. Olenna had a very understandable motive and Littlefinger wanted chaos. Joffrey sending the catspaw felt very random to me, though.

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[QUOTE]My issue is with the inequality of the grit. Woman will get raped all the time, but a group of male criminals with no women somehow does not lead to male on male rape. 
 

Dany is a target for rape, but not Jon. Part me thinks it is because Martin sexualizes Dany but considers Jon more of a self-insert fantasy (which why as a virgin he does great at oral sex).[/QUOTE]

 

@butterweedstrover you're absolutely right. I was never completely comfortable with the way that the modern-day Watch was depicted. If you're saying that the Wall is a prison colony, make it a prison colony. The stories on the Wall should have more in common with "Oz" than "Midnight with Charlie Bone"

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8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Personally, I don't have as much of an issue with this. Olenna had a very understandable motive and Littlefinger wanted chaos. Joffrey sending the catspaw felt very random to me, though.

To do this day, I still don't believe Joffrey sent the catspaw.

I think it was Varys.

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2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

To this day, I still don't believe Joffrey sent the catspaw.

I mean, before the release of ASOS, GRRM said that the catspaw mystery would be revealed in that book, and both Jaime and Tyrion came to the same conclusion, so there isn't much wiggle room here, unfortunately.

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The catspaw screams Joffrey. It would be impossible for any other plotter like vary or littlefinger to be able to arrange such a thing in such short amount of time.

And Tyrion himself said whos stupid enough to arm their own assassin. Joffrey is dumb enough to do that.

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Back when I made that Fairest of Them All post, I asked which woman George is the most besotted with. After much thought, I’ve decided that Daenerys is GRRM’s wifey, Arianne is his side chick, and Sansa is his fairytale princess. Dany is based on all the stuff he’s said about her in interviews and the emphasis on how special she is, Arianne based on her *ahem* introduction, and for all the talk of how life is not a song and all, Sansa’s story has a lot of fairytale parallels (Snow White, BatB, even Cinderella a bit), and men seem to fall in love with her even more easily than they fall for Dany (just look at the Alayne sample chapter).

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GRRM said that Dany was based partially on himself; His family once owned a factory which they lost during the Great Depression. He had to walk past it on his way to school every day and had thoughts like "This was ours once", which was the basis (or part of the basis) for Dany. Apologies if I got the details wrong, but it was something along those lines.

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Posted (edited)

I completely agree with The Young Maester . I personally actually liked Jofferey's reveal because he is the best option. for anyone in Winterfell , it's just utterly stupid to arm a catspaw with valerian weapon. while, neither Varys nor Littlefinger nor anyone else in Kingslanding could have had enough information and means to send the assassin with that particular dagger. not to mention, Varys wanted to postpone war in that time and thinking of Littlefinger as a grand schemer rather than a grand opportunist is a big mistake.

something to notice about George's "mysteries", in world or for readers, is that , he goes with a simple answer which gives the whole thing a bit of dark comedy in my opinion: the wife has killed the Hand on orders of a gambler leading to conflicts between two great houses . the psycho prince had sent the assassin leading to a devastating war . to anyone of Daenerys's enemy , she has killed her brother and her husband to get herself some dragons. to Jaeherys's court , a terrible disease killed Rhaena's friends when it was her neglected husband. to FnB historians different schemers had killed Laenor Velaryon when there's a good chance that George's head canon says a jealous lover did. to be short , it's almost never a grand theory.

 

Edited by EggBlue
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First off, GRRM is clearly a very, very talented writer. You don't sell millions copies and one of the most succesful tv shows of all time if you aren't. 

But how great is an interesting one, and to me whether or not he will be able to finish the books will be a big indicator of this. Not because I am frustrated at waiting for the WoW (well I am, but that's besides the point) but because it's essential for a great writer to be able to tell a story from start to finish. GRRM has created a very complex, extensive world (the most ambitious thing he had ever done by the time he started it like 30 years ago, and it has a grown A LOT since). There is a lot of pov characters, even more important characters and a lot of storylines that need to be completed. It's a lot easier to think of ways to expand a storyline, to add new layers to a story, then it's to find a fitting ending to it.  

I, for one, can not imagine that this delay is solely due to him having a lack of interest, being busy and being a slow writer. For that, there have been way to many instances of him admitting to re-writing part of his story, changing things and also alluding to things that then he then later goes back on (a plot twist, a character he shouldn't have killed, etc). He obviosly feels pressure to finish this thing in 2 more novels, which gives him, let's say 2000+ book pages at most to finish this storyline up? If he can do that, great job, well done. If not, I think it could be considerd somewhat of a critism towards him that he did not see the issues with introducing so many side-plots, so many characters when the main plot was already extensive and appealing to many. I am sure he has an ideal ending to his story, but when the story keeps on getting expanded and more and more things need to be done to get to that point, you might reach a problem (or use to George's gardener terms of writing, grown too many trees were it becomes impossible to keep your nice garden alive and it all goes to shit as a result). So I think that will be something consider when evaluating him against others writers.

PS: First post here! Been lurking for awhile now, finally decided to make a post.

 

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10 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I personally actually liked Joffrey's reveal because he is the best option. for anyone in Winterfell, it's just utterly stupid to arm a catspaw with valyrian weapon.

But the fact that neither Jaime nor Cersei tried to do anything about Bran even though they knew he survived the fall is... very off. And we shouldn't forget that this was very early in the story, when Jaime was supposed to become the evil machiavellian king.  Maybe GRRM initially planned for it to be Jaime or Cersei, but changed his mind midway through.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I completely agree with The Young Maester . I personally actually liked Jofferey's reveal because he is the best option. for anyone in Winterfell , it's just utterly stupid to arm a catspaw with valerian weapon. while, neither Varys nor Littlefinger nor anyone else in Kingslanding could have had enough information and means to send the assassin with that particular dagger. not to mention, Varys wanted to postpone war in that time and thinking of Littlefinger as a grand schemer rather than a grand opportunist is a big mistake.

something to notice about George's "mysteries", in world or for readers, is that , he goes with a simple answer which gives the whole thing a bit of dark comedy in my opinion: the wife has killed the Hand on orders of a gambler leading to conflicts between two great houses . the psycho prince had sent the assassin leading to a devastating war . to anyone of Daenerys's enemy , she has killed her brother and her husband to get herself some dragons. to Jaeherys's court , a terrible disease killed Rhaena's friends when it was her neglected husband. to FnB historians different schemers had killed Laenor Velaryon when there's a good chance that George's head canon says a jealous lover did. to be short , it's almost never a grand theory.

 

Yeah, I think all the “grand” theories are overcomplicating things. Personally, I prefer GRRM’s method to the ten-levels-of-conspiracy that fans come up with, but I do think some people are going to be disappointed by what we end up getting.

If anything, GRRM seems most interested in the idea of history repeating itself. One of the reasons why I find FnB and TWOIAF so riveting is that there are so many parallels between historical characters and the main series. For instance, there’s no way that he would add a new Daenerys to FnB and have her die from something called “the Shivers” if it wasn’t supposed to hint at what’s to come for our Daenerys. 

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2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 

@butterweedstrover you're absolutely right. I was never completely comfortable with the way that the modern-day Watch was depicted. If you're saying that the Wall is a prison colony, make it a prison colony. The stories on the Wall should have more in common with "Oz" than "Midnight with Charlie Bone"

Yeah, the watch was more of a school boy playground reminiscent of Hogwarts. The bullies, the mean teacher, the overweight sidekick who makes the hero look handsome in comparison, the wise old man who takes a vested interest in our hero and the headmaster who while stern takes the hero up as his successor. 

It is so enmeshed in the heroic fantasy I don't buy the claim Dany was raped because realism. I think it was easier for Martin to write Dany in a sexually vulnerable position because she is hyper-sexualized from the start and a person whom he personally finds attractive. 

Jon is a boy, a sleek hero, and noble to a fault. Seeing him raped and abused would destroy the whole vibe of his story and his arc. And that it would gross out his readers to see a jumpy young bastard mentally and physically destroyed. 

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

@Jaenara Belarys I hadn't seen u for so long , I thought you have forgotten all about us and our favorite thread

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I've been trying to remember to come back, but keep forgetting. I've had a busy month, so far. 

Spoiler

AP test, a lot of projects, etc. 

 

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3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But the fact that neither Jaime nor Cersei tried to do anything about Bran even though they knew he survived the fall is... very off.

is it though? for all we know they either thought he'll die or that he'll be too scared to say anything.

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

And we shouldn't forget that this was very early in the story, when Jaime was supposed to become the evil machiavellian king.  Maybe GRRM initially planned for it to be Jaime or Cersei, but changed his mind midway through.

sure . only GRRM can say if he has changed his mind half way through. but I think you should give the man some more credit . he had 3 years to write GoT after his 13-14 sample chapters and outline. during that time , he changed quite a lot: he changed Dany's story significantly from the scratch , he dropped "they get older each chapter" idea . he obviously dumped Arya/Jon idea(as disputed as this may be) . he changed Arya's destination from beyond the Wall to Bravos , aka Syrio's introduction. he dropped Sansa's marriage and her choosing her new family over the old one. I could go on and on... the point is all these changes were done from early on in the story . of course, there may be dialogues and scenes from the first draft left in the book . but a plot point like that just sounds unlikely to me. 

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Ever notice how George answers mysteries long after the answer to them can have an effect on the plot. Joffrey was the one who tried to kill Bran when he was sleeping, but 20 to 30 pages later Joffrey is dead and the plot has moved on. Same with Littlefinger being the one who killed Jon Arryn; anyone who could use that info to bring Littlefinger down, is long dead by that point.

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