Jump to content

Why are there Lannister Men-at-arms hanging around King’s Landing?


Thedog
 Share

Recommended Posts

So at the start of the Game of Thrones (ie during peacetime), there are random Lannister men-at-arms just hanging around King’s Landing. Why? Lord Tywin is not present, and they are his men. Jamie is a Kingsguard, so he shouldn’t have a retinue of guards. They are not there for Tyrion since apparently only keeps only two retainers.
 

I know you might say Cersei, but that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Daughters of great lords are always marrying into other families and they then use the guards of the new family. There are no Tully men hanging around Winterfell or the Vale, with the Tully daughters (well the Blackfish goes to the Vale, but it appears that he is not with a contingent of men). They apparently expect the loyalty of their husbands men. 
 

So why are there so many Lannister soldiers hanging around King Robert? It seem that Robert would and should object to this. He should have Baratheon men in droves, since he now controls the Crownlands directly, but it seems like all he has are the City Watch.  
 

Edited by Thedog
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert's accompanied by a retinue of knights and retainers when he heads North, it's likely that they're with him in King's Landing too but not worth mentioning. Tywin likely sent Cersei her guard to add to the prestige of the queen and to serve as an ever present reminder to the court of who she represents, besides it never hurts to ensure your daughter has the protection of men personally loyal to you when paying for them wouldn't even make you bat an eyelid. 

 

Edited by Trigger Warning
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Robert's accompanied by a retinue of knights and retainers when he heads North, it's likely that they're with him in King's Landing too but not worth mentioning. Tywin likely sent Cersei her guard to add to the prestige of the queen and to serve as an ever present reminder to the court of who she represents, besides it never hurts to ensure your daughter has the protection of men personally loyal to you when paying for them wouldn't even make you bat an eyelid. 

 

A Queen he prestige through her husband. Tywin having men at court would seem to indicate that he thought that there would be situations where he thought Cersei might need swords who are not beholden to Robert (at least not any more beholden than any random commoner in Westeros). I guess that knowing Cersei her getting into a situation needing men did seem like a good precaution. 
 

nevertheless, i still Don’t get why Robert would let a force of men not loyal to him be permanently lodged under his roof.
 

Obviously there is precedent for a Queen having a sworn shield (in this case the Hound). But a force of armed men? That seems to undercut his power. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Baratheon men from where?  He has no holding of his own, so he would need to get them from Renly or Stannis, both of whom he dislikes, and the feeling is mutual.  He not going to ask them for anything. 

He also appears to be perfectly happy letting his wife dole out cushy jobs in the capital as patronage.  Being a man-at-arms would be such a cushy job.  Plus, Robert is a lazy and feckless ruler and doesn't really give a damn about that kind of thing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Baratheon men from where?  He has no holding of his own, so he would need to get them from Renly or Stannis, both of whom he dislikes, and the feeling is mutual.  He not going to ask them for anything. 

He also appears to be perfectly happy letting his wife dole out cushy jobs in the capital as patronage.  Being a man-at-arms would be such a cushy job.  Plus, Robert is a lazy and feckless ruler and doesn't really give a damn about that kind of thing. 

It really amazes me how in a history which includes men like Maegor, Aegon IV, Aegon II, Aerys II, and Daeron I, Robert still ends up being one of the worst kings ever to sit on the Iron Throne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

Big Walder’s quarterings were the tree-and-ravens of House Blackwood and the twining snakes of the Paeges. They must be hungry for honor, Bran thought as he watched them take up their lances. A Stark needs only the direwolf.  (ACOK 16)

Lannisters are like that:  hungry for honor.  Having an escort of red cloaks reminds everyone who Cersei is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Thedog said:

So why are there so many Lannister soldiers hanging around King Robert? It seem that Robert would and should object to this. He should have Baratheon men in droves, since he now controls the Crownlands directly, but it seems like all he has are the City Watch.  

I mean the City Watch is the bigger force in the city by a wide margin, the Goldcloaks completely dwarfs the other forces in the city combined. Why would Robert object if he simply doesn't care and doesn't see it as a threat to his power?

 

6 hours ago, Thedog said:

nevertheless, i still Don’t get why Robert would let a force of men not loyal to him be permanently lodged under his roof.

He didn't care.

 

6 hours ago, Thedog said:

That seems to undercut his power. 

Even having the Lannister men at arms, Cersei still needed the backing of the City Watch to overpower Ned, if Littlefinger had been true to his word and delivered the Gold Cloaks to Ned then Cersei would have died and the Lannister men at arms would have been put to the sword just like Ned's were.

No, it didn't really undercut his power.

 

 

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

Baratheon men from where?  He has no holding of his own, so he would need to get them from Renly or Stannis, both of whom he dislikes, and the feeling is mutual.  He not going to ask them for anything. 

Eh, I'd say that as the former Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and now their king, he could poach men in those lands without really paying attention to his brothers... He'd have to care enough to do it tho.

 

 

3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Robert still ends up being one of the worst kings ever to sit on the Iron Throne.

Tbf, he's not worse king than any of those. In fact if he hadn't bankruptted the Realm, he would have been a pretty decent- good ish king as he gave the Realm 14 years of peace and plenty and managed to reconcile most of the realm with his usurpation. But yeah, bankrupting the Realm makes a bad king.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Baratheon men from where?  He has no holding of his own, so he would need to get them from Renly or Stannis, both of whom he dislikes, and the feeling is mutual.  He not going to ask them for anything. 

 

As king, he would be direct lord of the Crownlands. That region doesn’t fall within any of his primary vassals’ domains. Accordingly lesser houses from the Crownlands would be his direct vassal, and likely the crown would also hold land within that region directly. So he could certainly recruit men from that land. Additionally he could recruit directly from King’s Landing. Targaryens had no problem finding men to be Dragonkeepers, and presumably had guards in addition to the watch. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Baratheon men from where?  He has no holding of his own, so he would need to get them from Renly or Stannis, both of whom he dislikes, and the feeling is mutual.  He not going to ask them for anything. 

He also appears to be perfectly happy letting his wife dole out cushy jobs in the capital as patronage.  Being a man-at-arms would be such a cushy job.  Plus, Robert is a lazy and feckless ruler and doesn't really give a damn about that kind of thing. 

Stannis, yes, but I’m not sure we see any real dislike between Renly and Robert; they were frequently hunting partners and while he doesn’t enjoy it when Renly laughingly stands up to him and mocks Joff and Cersei, Robert lets him get away with it in a way that seems old habit. Renly reminds so many who knew him of Robert when he was younger, I’m sure Robert enjoys some aspects of that.Though he might also sometimes think that that carefree enjoy life air of Renly’s reminds him of all the heavy responsibilities that keep him, in his mind, from being that man anymore. Renly’s smarter than Robert ever was, and much more of a player/politician, but smart enough not to rub it in Robert’s face. 
 

Regardless, Robert should have access to a retinue, if only drawn from the Crownlands. Or he might have been persuaded to dissolve the expense to pay for more tourneys or w/e with the understanding that Cersei’s men make it redundant. Medieval courts were incredibly expensive and as a result would routinely spend part/most of the year on the move from vassal to vassal as those hosts were then responsible for feeding and housing the king’s household who otherwise are by far a king’s greatest expense. 
 

In fact troublesome RL vassals were often effectively checked by the ‘honour’ of an extensive or repeated royal visit, drying up their coffers while apparently showing them great favour. Until Jon Arryn’s death we never hear of Robert going on circuit which is both weird (it’s basically an extended free pub crawl if you want it to be, which would seem to suit him) and incredibly bad leadership even without accounting for the constant revelry in KL. It should both lessen his ties with his vassals and more importantly beggar the Royal purse. 

Edited by James Arryn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Thedog said:

A Queen he prestige through her husband. Tywin having men at court would seem to indicate that he thought that there would be situations where he thought Cersei might need swords who are not beholden to Robert (at least not any more beholden than any random commoner in Westeros). I guess that knowing Cersei her getting into a situation needing men did seem like a good precaution. 
 

nevertheless, i still Don’t get why Robert would let a force of men not loyal to him be permanently lodged under his roof.
 

Obviously there is precedent for a Queen having a sworn shield (in this case the Hound). But a force of armed men? That seems to undercut his power. 

I think you're thinking of this in too rigid terms. She might be the queen but she's still an individual with her own retinue, as long as Tywin's footing the bill I'm sure Robert doesn't give a shit if she wants to have a household guard. Ned brought his household guard to King's Landing too because they're his retinue. Basically every noble staying in the Red Keep would likely have some armed retainers accompanying them as I'm sure Robert did as well the difference is Tywin can casually afford to give his daughter a large one so he does. 

I'm not sure what your point is about prestige, you can have many sources of prestige and a distinctly Lannister source in the capital benefits Tywin, paying for the Queen to have a load of men at arms in her personal service decked out in his livery is a potent reminder of who she represents and how much wealth he commands. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Thedog said:

So at the start of the Game of Thrones (ie during peacetime), there are random Lannister men-at-arms just hanging around King’s Landing. Why? Lord Tywin is not present, and they are his men. Jamie is a Kingsguard, so he shouldn’t have a retinue of guards. They are not there for Tyrion since apparently only keeps only two retainers.
 

I know you might say Cersei, but that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Daughters of great lords are always marrying into other families and they then use the guards of the new family. There are no Tully men hanging around Winterfell or the Vale, with the Tully daughters (well the Blackfish goes to the Vale, but it appears that he is not with a contingent of men). They apparently expect the loyalty of their husbands men. 
 

So why are there so many Lannister soldiers hanging around King Robert? It seem that Robert would and should object to this. He should have Baratheon men in droves, since he now controls the Crownlands directly, but it seems like all he has are the City Watch.  
 

For the same reason Mel tells Jon to have a tail even though he doesn't (or shouldn't) need one at Castle Black: the trappings of power are as important as the power itself. She keeps her own guards for that very reason as well, IRRC. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It could be that Tywin was just not sure of the loyalty of the men from the Crownlands and King's Landing in particular, the Lannister had just brutally sacked the city not long ago after all, he then just never bothered to call them back, since they added the benefit of showing the power of house Lannister.

And for Robert he has the Gold Cloaks, a force of 2 000 men including at least a few knights and they are supposed to be loyal directly to him, sure they are disloyal in Agot but that does seem that it is because the succession is not clear, I would assume that the Gold Cloaks were kingmen's.

And just to add a bit, Renly seems to have a hundred men in King's Landing, it would most likely not just is own guards but it would seem that any one of importance has its own retinue even in the capital.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, frenin said:

 

 

 

Tbf, he's not worse king than any of those. In fact if he hadn't bankruptted the Realm, he would have been a pretty decent- good ish king as he gave the Realm 14 years of peace and plenty and managed to reconcile most of the realm with his usurpation. But yeah, bankrupting the Realm makes a bad king.

Tbh, and this is in accordance with pretty much what everyone says, any of the peaceful/positive virtues of Robert’s reign were directly attributed to Jon Arryn, not Robert. It’s no coincidence that his death is, by design, the event that sees everything start to unravel. Without the twincest it’s possible Arryn could have kept the ship afloat for the duration, but Ned was not an ideal replacement. Maybe without the twincest undercurrents Robert doesn’t prioritize familiarity/trust as much and selects a better diplomat/administrator to succeed if Arryn dies of natural causes later on. Stannis and Tywin are both able but would be pr disasters, maybe Renly or Doran Martell or someone who hasn’t emerged yet as Jon was described as seemingly destined to live a long time yet without poisoning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Tbh, and this is in accordance with pretty much what everyone says, any of the peaceful/positive virtues of Robert’s reign were directly attributed to Jon Arryn, not Robert. It’s no coincidence that his death is, by design, the event that sees everything start to unravel. Without the twincest it’s possible Arryn could have kept the ship afloat for the duration, but Ned was not an ideal replacement. Maybe without the twincest undercurrents Robert doesn’t prioritize familiarity/trust as much and selects a better diplomat/administrator to succeed if Arryn dies of natural causes later on. Stannis and Tywin are both able but would be pr disasters, maybe Renly or Doran Martell or someone who hasn’t emerged yet as Jon was described as seemingly destined to live a long time yet without poisoning.

They were a team, for the good and for the bad. Arryn also let Robert bankrupt the realm and never  put any check on him. I usually tend to give/blame kings for the success and failures of their servants, unless those are into some shady shady shit, which is why i don't care that much whether it was Robert or Littlefinger the one who actually bankrupted the Realm, the latter served the former and it was the former's job to check the work of the latter.

Btw, Ned would have been a wonderful Hand, on that end Robert was pretty much right and he obviously left the Realm in the most capable and trustworthy hands possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...
On 5/19/2022 at 6:01 PM, frenin said:

Btw, Ned would have been a wonderful Hand, on that end Robert was pretty much right and he obviously left the Realm in the most capable and trustworthy hands possible.

 
 
 

I think people often forget that Robert didn't know about the incest or that Jon Arryn's death wasn't natural. He didn't think that the Seven Kingdoms were in the verge of collapsing and choose a Hand for peacetime who was his friend and who (he believed) would keep the best interests of the realm in mind.

Tywin and Renly would have filled the court with their sycophants and allies, and Stannis is basically a worse version of Ned with his grudges and lack of diplomatic sense. Besides, Robert is not close to them - he dislikes Tywin, is at best indifferent to Stannis and thinks of Renly as a 'yes-man'. 

 

Yes, Ned has a lack of knowledge about the administration of the realm and the political realities of KL and the power of Hand (believing himself 'first among equals' at first), but he could find these out from LF or Stannis who would be obvious candidates as allies, as they were the allies of his precedessor Jon Arryn.  

 

The problem is that Lysa's letter, Bran's subsequent fall and assassination attempt and Stannis departing completely derailed the Handship of Ned. He basically spent a large part of his time conducting an investigation and waging a 'shadow-war' with the Lannisters.

Edited by csuszka1948
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is a plot point rather than a plot hole. It's immediately apparent to Ned that the Lannister influence in King's Landing is outsized and this is a concern to him. We're also shown early on that Joffrey quarters his arms with the Lannister arms, which is unusual for the son of a king who should be proud to wear the royal arms.

I suspect that what happened is something like this:

Jon Arryn: Bobby, there are way too many Lannister men hanging around King's Landing.

Robert: I want these Lannister men out of King's Landing

Cersei: What the hell, no you don't. I don't trust your men, they're all rubbish. I need some proper soldiers to protect me. Anyway, my father's paying for you to sit on that throne and he should be Hand of the King not that Jon Arryn loser so he it's entirely reasonable to have Lannister men around, it'd all go to hell if they weren't here. Also you're a fat drunk and bad in bed so I don't care what you think [continues for several hours]

Robert: OK, fine, whatever, I need a drink.

Repeat any time the subject of too much Lannister influence at court comes up.

I think Robert does know, at heart, that the Lannister influence is a potential problem, but he doesn't have the energy or dedication to press the point, rather leaving the issue to his Hands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/19/2022 at 5:50 PM, James Arryn said:

Tbh, and this is in accordance with pretty much what everyone says, any of the peaceful/positive virtues of Robert’s reign were directly attributed to Jon Arryn, not Robert. It’s no coincidence that his death is, by design, the event that sees everything start to unravel. Without the twincest it’s possible Arryn could have kept the ship afloat for the duration, but Ned was not an ideal replacement. Maybe without the twincest undercurrents Robert doesn’t prioritize familiarity/trust as much and selects a better diplomat/administrator to succeed if Arryn dies of natural causes later on. Stannis and Tywin are both able but would be pr disasters, maybe Renly or Doran Martell or someone who hasn’t emerged yet as Jon was described as seemingly destined to live a long time yet without poisoning.

 

I agree that most of virtues of Robert's reign can be attributed to Jon Arryn.

Is Ned a bad diplomat and administrator though? 

Look at Jon's possible precedessors:

1) Tywin: Robert doesn't trust him, he would fill the court with his sycophants from the Westerlands and favor them. He is a good administrator though.

2) Renly: Robert thinks about him as a 'yes-man', he would fill the court with his allies from the Reach and favor them. We don't know a lot about his administrative skills, but he is good at diplomacy. 

3) Stannis: Robert doesn't like him and they wouldn't get on well, because he would try to implement large reforms which Robert opposes. He worked together with Jon Arryn and would be his natural successor in terms of administration and would try to keep the best interests of the realm in mind, but his grudges might get in the way and he is a terrible diplomat.

4) Littlefinger: seems good at diplomacy and with delegating to capable man, but too lowborn and Robert isn't close to him

5) Ned: Robert's best friend, the man he trusts the most and who is willing to say to his face if he is wrong without alienating him. He would be a decent administrator (he did a terrific job at the North) and an acceptable (worse than Renly and Jon Arryn, but markedly better than Stannis) diplomat. He would also keep the best interests of the realm in mind instead of favoring his allies.

 

If Robert suspected something about Jon's death, Stannis would be a good choice and if he planned to bring the Reach closer at the expense of his old allies, Renly would be a good choice. 

However, he wanted to maintain the status quo, and for that Ned was the best option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

However, he wanted to maintain the status quo, and for that Ned was the best option.

I'm inclined to agree. Jon stacked the Small Council with loyalists, presumably in part to try to counter the Lannister influence, since it's pretty clear Tywin sees himself as the "rightful" Hand: himself, Renly, and Stannis, who are loyal to Robert, and Littlefinger, who is supposedly loyal to him. Pycelle he can't do anything about, and while Varys's loyalties may be suspect, he can at least be fairly confident he's not plotting with the Lannisters.

Appointing Ned is continuing this policy at a time when there is nobody else of equivalent status obviously available to fill the gap. The only other person I would seriously consider, in Robert's shoes, is Hoster Tully, but he's ill.

I also think Ned would have done a decent job if given the chance. But Robert's reign is already circling the drain when he arrives so it's too late for him to do anything much about it except what he tries to do, i.e. shut the door on the Lannisters after Robert dies.

What neither Ned nor Jon Arryn factored in was that Littlefinger had no loyalty to either of them and had his own agenda, which resulted in both of their downfalls.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think this is a plot point rather than a plot hole. It's immediately apparent to Ned that the Lannister influence in King's Landing is outsized and this is a concern to him. We're also shown early on that Joffrey quarters his arms with the Lannister arms, which is unusual for the son of a king who should be proud to wear the royal arms.

I suspect that what happened is something like this:

Jon Arryn: Bobby, there are way too many Lannister men hanging around King's Landing.

Robert: I want these Lannister men out of King's Landing

Cersei: What the hell, no you don't. I don't trust your men, they're all rubbish. I need some proper soldiers to protect me. Anyway, my father's paying for you to sit on that throne and he should be Hand of the King not that Jon Arryn loser so he it's entirely reasonable to have Lannister men around, it'd all go to hell if they weren't here. Also you're a fat drunk and bad in bed so I don't care what you think [continues for several hours]

Robert: OK, fine, whatever, I need a drink.

Repeat any time the subject of too much Lannister influence at court comes up.

I think Robert does know, at heart, that the Lannister influence is a potential problem, but he doesn't have the energy or dedication to press the point, rather leaving the issue to his Hands.

 
 
 
 
 

Is the power of the Lannisters actually too big considering that they are the queen's family and a great house?

 

In the small council, their only man is a Maester who has been doing this job for 35 years and doesn't wield any considerable influence.

There are many redcloaks in KL, but is their number unusually big? Rickard Stark has brought 200 men with him when he went south, it was Ned decision to only bring 50. Besides, the men Renly and Ned had still might have been enough (I am not sure if the plan would have worked out) to take Cersei and her children captive. There are men and knights loyal to Robert, but upon his death they obviously follow the queen and Robert's son over the Northerner who came to KL half a year ago and claims Joffrey is a bastard.

Having Lancel and Tyrek squiring for Robert is (supposed to be) great, but nothing special: Tywin and his uncle Tion also served as squires to Aegon V. Ned only considers this an issue because he believes that the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn and are actively working against Robert.

Naming Jaime Warden of the East doesn't come with any actual advantages. Tywin fostering Sweetrobin would actually bring them great power, but they never managed to enforce this decision.

 

Overall, I would say Cersei has considerable influence over the King (managing to convince him to foster R.A. with Tywin and name her cousins his squires), but not huge power in KL.

The problem is rather the way Cersei is arrogantly flaunting this influence, with displaying a stag-lion sigil, teaching her children to be 'lions' (while Robert ignores them), and at the same time maintaining a bad relationship with the king's brothers, who hold the Stormlands and Dragonstone&royal fleet.

 

 

Edited by csuszka1948
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

I think this is a plot point rather than a plot hole. It's immediately apparent to Ned that the Lannister influence in King's Landing is outsized and this is a concern to him.

I find the Lannister overinfluence overstated, it comes primarily from Ned's bias (two Lannisters in the same room are three extra Lannisters to his liking). And Varys who was filling Ned's head with poison.

In reality, The Baratheon and Arryn's by far hold the most important positions at court, the only real reason the Lannisters have the influence they have on Robert is solely due to Cersei.

But most men at court are either from the Vale, the stormlands or friends of Renly from the Reach. The only concesion Tywin has is Pycelle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...