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What if Khal Drogo's Khalasar captured King's Landing and made Rhaego the King on the Iron Throne?


Jonsa
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2 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Independance, by the time Dany and Drogo would arrive Robb would most likely already have declared the North independance. And why bend the knee to the kid of a barbarian who wants to bring back slavery and that is married to a women's who's family killed your grandfather and uncle, kidnaped and caused the death of your aunt that started the whole thing ?

And in my thinking you would add to that, that they harmed your sister. Sure they killed the Lannister's but they didnt kill them to avenge or have justice for the Starks, so sure they help you but that does not make them potential allies. Robb went to war to free is father he would continue to get is sister and break the north away.

On the other hand, Robb didn't try to free Sansa, seemed well content to leave her to be beaten to death by Joffrey.

 

To answer the OP's original question, what would have to happen to make that scenario possible? Robert beat a force of 40,000 men with a smaller force of 35,000, how many Dothraki would Drogo need to take a Westerosi army out?

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Posted (edited)

Taking King's Landing and proclaiming Rhaego as king is one thing, truly conquering the Seven Kingdoms and make everyone recognise Rhaego as their king and holding the Iron Throne is something else. 

I don't that most houses would have been eager to recognise Drogo, Daenerys and Rhaego's rule nor that the Dothraki would last too long against Westeros' best castle and the combined armies of the other kingdoms. 

And Robb may be willing to trade something to get Sansa back but I don't think that he would be willing to bend the knee and would likely still largely prefer Stannis or Renly to the Dothraki. 

Edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9
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16 hours ago, frenin said:

Targaryen restoration is one thing, Dothraki rule is quite another. Rhaego is not Viserys  for good and ill.

As for Sansa... Yeah, i'm not seeing it. Why would Robb give his sister's hand to the son of "savages" and the enemies of his father?

 

The whole scenario is most unlikely ever to have come to pass but if Drogo slaughtered the Lannisters, and treated Sansa kindly, and wanted her wed to Rhaego, why not?  The Lannisters were the present enemies to the Starks, the Targaryens a previous enemy.

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11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

On the other hand, Robb didn't try to free Sansa, seemed well content to leave her to be beaten to death by Joffrey.

 

To answer the OP's original question, what would have to happen to make that scenario possible? Robert beat a force of 40,000 men with a smaller force of 35,000, how many Dothraki would Drogo need to take a Westerosi army out?

The Dothraki wouldn't have been facing 35,000 men.

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3 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Taking King's Landing and proclaiming Rhaego as king is one thing, truly conquering the Seven Kingdoms and make everyone recognise Rhaego as their king and holding the Iron Throne is something else. 

I don't that most houses would have been eager to recognise Drogo, Daenerys and Rhaego's rule nor that the Dothraki would last too long against Westeros' best castle and the combined armies of the other kingdoms. 

And Robb may be willing to trade something to get Sansa back but I don't think that he would be willing to bend the knee and would likely still largely prefer Stannis or Renly to the Dothraki. 

 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

The whole scenario is most unlikely ever to have come to pass but if Drogo slaughtered the Lannisters, and treated Sansa kindly, and wanted her wed to Rhaego, why not?  The Lannisters were the present enemies to the Starks, the Targaryens a previous enemy.

 

47 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Well, the scenario is impossible to begin with. But even if it somehow succeeds, I do not think people would accept Rhaego, so...

Possession of the Iron Throne is nine-tenths of the law.

House Targaryen would be the new royal house by right of conquest, so...

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13 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Independance, by the time Dany and Drogo would arrive Robb would most likely already have declared the North independance. And why bend the knee to the kid of a barbarian who wants to bring back slavery and that is married to a women's who's family killed your grandfather and uncle, kidnaped and caused the death of your aunt that started the whole thing ?

And in my thinking you would add to that, that they harmed your sister. Sure they killed the Lannister's but they didnt kill them to avenge or have justice for the Starks, so sure they help you but that does not make them potential allies. Robb went to war to free is father he would continue to get is sister and break the north away.

After Stannis murders Renly, Khal Drogo now has the largest army on the Westerosi continent.

If the carrot fails, the stick's still there.

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5 minutes ago, Jonsa said:

 

 

Possession of the Iron Throne is nine-tenths of the law.

House Targaryen would be the new royal house by right of conquest, so...

Right of conquest would only work if Drogo was in position to not only have conquered King's Landing but also of conquering and submitting the rest of the kingdoms, something beyond his reach.

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11 minutes ago, Jonsa said:

After Stannis murders Renly, Khal Drogo now has the largest army on the Westerosi continent.

If the carrot fails, the stick's still there.

The North is safe outside of the Ironborn, the Dothraki would never be able to pass Moat Cailin, even if they land on the shore winter is coming and the dothraki will freeze to death before they can take a Castle.

Im also not sure that the Dothraki would be the largest army, were are told that Drogo as 40,000 warrior's, Robb Stark assemble 12,000 men before the figthing, the Riverlands 11,000 rapidly so even in bad condition and losses Robb should be able to field between 10,000 and 15,000 men. The Tyrells would still be and play and they're massive army that could easly be over 60,000. The Vale has also more than 20,000 since that is only the lord declarant and with the Lannister dead they could join Robb like some Vale lords wanted. The Dothraki would still be a problem but they would be seen has the ennemy by everyone else on the account of being foreign and barbaric.

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So let me comment on some of the thoughts presented in this alternate novel.  

  1. Rhaego's appearance.  All easy if he looks like a Targaryen.  Looking like a Dothraki and missing the blood of the dragon may raise doubts in the minds of the people.  Sansa the Stark will reject a dark skinned Dothraki man.
  2. Robb Stark will only bend the knee to a non-Baratheon if he is soundly defeated and humiliated in battle.  The Starks are bonded to the Baratheons in a rather evil, destructive family tie.  Khal Drogo will have to spank Robb and the North hosts before Robb would bend the knee.  
  3. Rhaego raised by the Dothraki will find Westeros a disappointment.  The Dothraki are more advanced in many important ways.  The Dothraki bathe and they ride horses.  Common Westeros walk. Most people in northern Westeros rarely bathed, they breed fleas on their person,  and look like ragged barbarians.  Drogo and the other Khals have mansions.  The Dothraki live in what some may consider an ideal grasslands.  They live in lands of abundance.  Westeros large cities have beggars and starving masses.  Westeros is not an improvement in hygiene and other measures of standards of living.  The stench inside castles and cities is like to turn away the Dothraki.  
  4. Daenerys is still young enough to have more children.  What if Rhaego is not most capable of the children.  The Dothraki would follow the stronger of the children.
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2 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

The North is safe outside of the Ironborn, the Dothraki would never be able to pass Moat Cailin, even if they land on the shore winter is coming and the dothraki will freeze to death before they can take a Castle.

Im also not sure that the Dothraki would be the largest army, were are told that Drogo as 40,000 warrior's, Robb Stark assemble 12,000 men before the figthing, the Riverlands 11,000 rapidly so even in bad condition and losses Robb should be able to field between 10,000 and 15,000 men. The Tyrells would still be and play and they're massive army that could easly be over 60,000. The Vale has also more than 20,000 since that is only the lord declarant and with the Lannister dead they could join Robb like some Vale lords wanted. The Dothraki would still be a problem but they would be seen has the ennemy by everyone else on the account of being foreign and barbaric.

Why would Robb even want to fight Drogo?

If Drogo invades the Westerlands after the Crownlands, wouldn't Robb want to instead join the horde and help them to pillage and enslave the westermen? It would have been revenge for the Lannister invasion of Riverlands, and a share/fraction of all of the gold and slaves there would have made Robb and Droho the richest men in Westeros.

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2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Right of conquest would only work if Drogo was in position to not only have conquered King's Landing but also of conquering and submitting the rest of the kingdoms, something beyond his reach.

Well, yeah, agreed. Drogo and Daenerys need mainland allies in Westeros to conquer the rest of the continent.

The Martells, perhaps?

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20 hours ago, Jonsa said:

Barristan, in his capacity as hand, would probably have arranged for Catelyn and Robb to be generously compensated for Sansa's honour with Ice, Joffrey's head and a ton of gold. It'd have been more than enough.

And if Sansa was slain?

2 hours ago, Jonsa said:

Well, yeah, agreed. Drogo and Daenerys need mainland allies in Westeros to conquer the rest of the continent.

The Martells, perhaps?

Maybe for a time.

Truth be told, revenge against someone (particularly the Lannisters) is not that strong or stable of a motivation. The Martells and the Starks would be appeased for a while....but eventually, you're going to run out of favor. What happens when the Dothraki cross the line (which they will, under Drogo's watch)? What happens when you run out of Lannisters to kill?

How would the Dothraki enforce the law of the land? How would Drogo and Daenerys rule? They have more in common with wildlings than they do with noblemen.

4 hours ago, Rondo said:
  • Rhaego raised by the Dothraki will find Westeros a disappointment.  The Dothraki are more advanced in many important ways.  The Dothraki bathe and they ride horses.  Common Westeros walk. Most people in northern Westeros rarely bathed, they breed fleas on their person,  and look like ragged barbarians.  Drogo and the other Khals have mansions.  The Dothraki live in what some may consider an ideal grasslands.  They live in lands of abundance.  Westeros large cities have beggars and starving masses.  Westeros is not an improvement in hygiene and other measures of standards of living.  The stench inside castles and cities is like to turn away the Dothraki.  

I imagine it's hard to bathe regularly in a climate where snowfall at the peak of summer is to be expected.

But yeah, the Dothraki wouldn't like the sedentary or semi-sedentary life of the Westerosi.

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33 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I imagine it's hard to bathe regularly in a climate where snowfall at the peak of summer is to be expected.

But yeah, the Dothraki wouldn't like the sedentary or semi-sedentary life of the Westerosi.

Hehe.  That is a kind way to say it.  Life as a person in Westeros is not an improvement.  Westeros is less-developed than Essos.  A Khal would live better, albeit shorter if he loses his prowess, than a king of Westeros.  

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Just now, Rondo said:

Westeros is less-developed than Essos.  A Khal would live better, albeit shorter if he loses his prowess, than a king of Westeros.  

In some ways. Not in every way.

Again, we are talking about a khal. What about a male Dothraki commoner? A female one?

And the Dothraki don't have any semblance of established law and order outside of Vaes Dothrak. Anything goes within each khalasar provided that the khal approves...and if he doesn't, you can just try to kill him. If two khals should meet, all out war. Sons and daughters of dead khals are slain or enslaved...even if they are infants.

I bet the Dothraki would live longer if they adopted a more Westerosi model of...hmm, I don't know...valuing life enough not to wantonly kill each other.

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

And if Sansa was slain?

Maybe for a time.

Truth be told, revenge against someone (particularly the Lannisters) is not that strong or stable of a motivation. The Martells and the Starks would be appeased for a while....but eventually, you're going to run out of favor. What happens when the Dothraki cross the line (which they will, under Drogo's watch)? What happens when you run out of Lannisters to kill?

How would the Dothraki enforce the law of the land? How would Drogo and Daenerys rule? They have more in common with wildlings than they do with noblemen.

I imagine it's hard to bathe regularly in a climate where snowfall at the peak of summer is to be expected.

But yeah, the Dothraki wouldn't like the sedentary or semi-sedentary life of the Westerosi.

1. If Sansa doesn't survive whatever the Dothraki do to her, then it can always be blamed on the Lannisters/the Hound. 

If she does survive, great. Then she can be married off to Rhaego before Jorah goes to Robb and Catelyn to propose a pact.

2. Why would the Northmen and riverlords want to restrain the Dothraki from pillaging and raping the Westerlands? If they help the Dothraki, they get a share of the gold and the slaves. Ditto for King Stannis in the Stormlands and the Dornish.

As for King Balon in the Iron Islands, everybody would think that enslaving the ironborn is a great idea. Especially since it would stop the reaving.

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On 5/26/2022 at 7:08 PM, Jonsa said:

In this alternative scenario, Khal Drogo never gets wounded by Ogo. He sacks Lhazar and then sells the slaves that he has harvested for warships to take his Khalasar across the Narrow Sea, as well as entire companies of Essosi sellswords to both sail/navigate the ships across the Narrow Sea and to further reinforce his invasion force of Westeros.

The Khalasar lands relatively safely/intact in the Narrow Sea coastlines (having picked up Ser Barristan Selmy/Arstan Whitebeard) during their voyage, and using Barristan's intimate knowledge of Crownlands geography, immediately storms to and captures King's Landing taking advantage of the Dothraki's unprecedented speed of advance compared with the native Westerosi armies, after getting one of the seven gates open either through force(using battering rams) or subterfuge (Barristan, Jorah and some of the mercenaries scaling the King's Landing walls and then getting one open, similarly to Theon's seizure of Winterfell). All of this happens right in the middle of A Clash of Kings.

After seizing the city, Drogo proceeds to loot, pillage and rape his way across the city. Tyrion, Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen and Lancel are all put to the sword by the horde without trial, as is every Lannister relative in the capital at this point. (Myrcella is travelling to Dorne at this point, so she's out of the way of Daenerys' revenge against the "Baratheons"). The Hound deserts the Kingsguard and flees the city during the fighting.

Presuming that Ilyn Payne is killed when the horde breaks into the Red Keep and Sansa survives her ordeal, what would have been her reaction to being liberated from the Lannisters by the Dothraki? After Drogo and Daenerys secure Rhaego as the King on the Iron Throne, I can certainly see Rhaego getting married to Sansa in order to further secure the Dothraki's tenuous foothold on Westeros. Keeping Sansa on as their ward/hostage, Ser Barristan Selmy is re-made Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and Hand of the King again, whilst Jorah is sent off to King Robb to negotiate a North-Riverlands-Dothraki alliance with Sansa's safety as the bargaining chip against both the Baratheons(Renly, Stannis) and the Lannisters.

Would Robb have allied with/bent the knee to Rhaego at this point for the sake of his sister's safety if not allowing Sansa to remain Queen Consort on the Iron Throne/Khaleesi?

Westeros will welcome Daenerys Targaryen with open arms.  The Dothraki are only important as a means to get rid of the pesky Baratheons and Lannisters.  The people will understand the role and the need for the Dothraki.  Westeros has suffered from Stark, Lannister, Greyjoy, and Baratheon incompetence and pettiness.  They are desperate for a return to the days of the Targaryen.  Daenerys has the proper appearance and they will not doubt her claim.  Rhaego and Drogo are just a small part of the package.  The lords of Westeros will support Daenerys.  She will have little need for Drogo after his riders have handily taken King's Landing and large areas around the city.  The lords will do the rest and unite the lands behind the Targaryen banner.  Robb, Sansa, and Stannis will be insignificant after the King's Landing is liberated from Baratheon-Lannister grip.

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8 hours ago, Jonsa said:

Why would Robb even want to fight Drogo?

If Drogo invades the Westerlands after the Crownlands, wouldn't Robb want to instead join the horde and help them to pillage and enslave the westermen? It would have been revenge for the Lannister invasion of Riverlands, and a share/fraction of all of the gold and slaves there would have made Robb and Droho the richest men in Westeros.

For the reason I said, to preserve Nothern independance, Robb's bannermen northern or from the Riverlands made him king, breaking away from the rest of the 7 kingdoms. So if Dany comes with Drogo to take the 7 kingdoms war with Robb is inevitable, a temporary alliance like what Robb wanted with Renly would only work until the Lannister's are dead and even that is not certain I would say.

Pillaging the westerlands is one thing but slavery is a completely different thing, outside of the Iron Islands slavery is realy realy not seen has moral and okay and that for quite a long time, at least the arrival of the andals. Even the Ironborn are okay with thralls wich are not sold. The very fact that the Dothraki would want to take slaves is for me the main drive to Westeros opposing them, because Westeros just dont have slaves, Jorah was supposed to be executed for that very crime, so I dont think Robb and is bannermen would all of a sudden be ok with it, even if it would make them rich. 

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1 hour ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

For the reason I said, to preserve Nothern independance, Robb's bannermen northern or from the Riverlands made him king, breaking away from the rest of the 7 kingdoms. So if Dany comes with Drogo to take the 7 kingdoms war with Robb is inevitable, a temporary alliance like what Robb wanted with Renly would only work until the Lannister's are dead and even that is not certain I would say.

Drogo's Khalasar against Robb's host in the Riverlands would be a toss-up.

If Robb kills Drogo, then the entire Khalasar disintegrates.

If Drogo kills Robb, then the Stark-Tully cause would be leaderless.

1 hour ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Pillaging the westerlands is one thing but slavery is a completely different thing, outside of the Iron Islands slavery is realy realy not seen has moral and okay and that for quite a long time, at least the arrival of the andals. Even the Ironborn are okay with thralls wich are not sold. The very fact that the Dothraki would want to take slaves is for me the main drive to Westeros opposing them, because Westeros just dont have slaves, Jorah was supposed to be executed for that very crime, so I dont think Robb and is bannermen would all of a sudden be ok with it, even if it would make them rich. 

Jorah and Barristan could however point out that the North is currently being invaded by Balon's ironborn slavers, so enslaving the losers has precedent during the war, especially the westermen who raped the Riverlands.

Robb seemed to be totally cool with using Barristan's dismissal from the Kingsguard by Cersei and Joffrey as a precedent for releasing Jon from his Night's Watch brother vows, so I can't see why he wouldn't buy this.

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