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Star Warsing Across the Universe


IlyaP
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3 hours ago, IFR said:

I'm not keeping up with the show anymore, but this thread remains very entertaining. Here is my humble contribution in the form of an article.

One of the writers of the show -Joby Harold, who wrote such masterpieces as King Arthur: Legend of the Sword and the upcoming Transformers movie - gave some insight about the writer's room.

 

In other words, while Obi-Wan kind of forgot about seeing the Emperor call Anakin Vader in the security footage, Vader certainly hasn't forgotten about him.:lol:

In all fairness to the writers, they have been working hard to establish that Obi-Wan has some pretty severe cognitive impairments, possibly as the result of hypoxia or heat stroke during his battle on Mustafar.

Anyway, found this pretty hilarious.

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Pablo Hidalgo is an invaluable source of knowledge for anyone working on anything “Star Wars”-related at Lucasfilm. His official title is Creative Executive (and on “Obi-Wan” he’s a “story advisor”), but he is essentially the keeper of the entire “Star Wars” canon

So the guy who mocked the kid from Star Wars Theory for crying during Luke's appearance in The Mandalorian is the keeper of Star Wars lore? Great.

It explains a lot that Disney Star Wars is being run by people who basically despise the fanbase.

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So, this was a little silly. If they didn't have the resources to show an escape from the Inquisitor fortress in a compelling way, they shouldn't have done it. Also, there was far too much repetition of the plot points of the OT (and in the case of the underwater swim the tPM), which was just dull. A real glut of "do you remember this?" - which I thoroughly disliked both in PT and in ST.

Not to mention - why couldn't Obi have brought an Imperial disguise on this infiltration and why in the name of all that is holy didn't they put Leia into a droid housing or a crate? Hiding her under a trench coat like this was just embarassing.

I am  disappointed that apparently Vader didn't let Obi-wan go on purpose, which retroactively hurts the ending of the previous episode. Also, I begin to wonder if he didn't kill the more capable Inquisitors once the bulk of the clean-up was done, because it beggars belief that these couple of clowns could have detained, broken and killed so many Jedi.

Oh, and it is pure nonsense that Leia could have betrayed the whole rescue operation - all she knew was that Tala was secretly a renegade. Did Tala and Kenobi lie to these people to gain their aid?

A couple of critiques here are still somewhat unfair, though:

 

I  don't get the criticism that McGregor was too little on screen - it is quality, not quantity that was lacking in this episode. This idea that a main character needs to be in every scene and if not, it is  "bait and switch" or whatever because we follow a baddie or a supporting character for a bit is deeply weird to me.

@sifth:

It seems that Reva wants to bag the whole operation and maybe also spy on Organas whiles she is about it, so she put that bug into Leia's droid. And Tala had a perfectly good ship that they arrived in, that Reva would have allowed them to board if the speeders hadn't come for them. The speeders didn't fly in space either, but were brought into Nur atmosphere by a spaceship.

This is like somebody critisized that in the third episode Tala ordered Obi and Leia to lie on the ground without demanding that he disarm himself first - well, of course. The purpose was to get them out of the line of fire, so that she could shoot her subordinates without  fear of clipping the 2 them!

@DMC:

Kenobi knew who  Inquisitors were, but he didn't know their names and neither did anybody else who came into contact with them on Tatooine. Why would anybody not highly placed in the Empire know Vader's? Even if they saw him they'd have  just thought that he was another Inquisitor, and it is doubtful that he would have chosen to introduce himself to the bystanders. Also, presumably there are/were more Inquisitors and they were doing all the legwork re: checking the rumors about the Jedi/sensitives, so people would have seen and heard more of them. 

 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Maia said:

So, this was a little silly. If they didn't have the resources to show an escape from the Inquisitor fortress in a compelling way, they shouldn't have done it. Also, there was far too much repetition of the plot points of the OT (and in the case of the underwater swim the tPM), which was just dull. A real glut of "do you remember this?" - which I thoroughly disliked both in PT and in ST.

Not to mention - why couldn't Obi have brought an Imperial disguise on this infiltration and why in the name of all that is holy didn't they put Leia into a droid housing or a crate? Hiding her under a trench coat like this was just embarassing.

I am  disappointed that apparently Vader didn't let Obi-wan go on purpose, which retroactively hurts the ending of the previous episode. Also, I begin to wonder if he didn't kill the more capable Inquisitors once the bulk of the clean-up was done, because it beggars belief that these couple of clowns could have detained, broken and killed so many Jedi.

Oh, and it is pure nonsense that Leia could have betrayed the whole rescue operation - all she knew was that Tala was secretly a renegade. Did Tala and Kenobi lie to these people to gain their aid?

A couple of critiques here are still somewhat unfair, though:

 

I  don't get the criticism that McGregor was too little on screen - it is quality, not quantity that was lacking in this episode. This idea that a main character needs to be in every scene and if not, it is  "bait and switch" or whatever because we follow a baddie or a supporting character for a bit is deeply weird to me.

@sifth:

It seems that Reva wants to bag the whole operation and maybe also spy on Organas whiles she is about it, so she put that bug into Leia's droid. And Tala had a perfectly good ship that they arrived in, that Reva would have allowed them to board if the speeders hadn't come for them. The speeders didn't fly in space either, but were brought into Nur atmosphere by a spaceship.

This is like somebody critisized that in the third episode Tala ordered Obi and Leia to lie on the ground without demanding that he disarm himself first - well, of course. The purpose was to get them out of the line of fire, so that she could shoot her subordinates without  fear of clipping the 2 them!

 

Yea, but she ends the episode surrounding Ben and Leia, with dozens of men, not letting them get into their escape ship. Also even if Reva knew about the tracking device, no one else clearly did, hence why Vader and the other inquisitor were pissed at her at the very end. So yea, does that base simply have no turrets, patrol ships, shields, radar or any form of defenses as all, so that two snow speeders can show up out of nowhere, destroy the hanger bay and just randomly fly in place. 

If she wanted to expose the whole operation and didn't know about the speeders, I just don't see how she was planning on letting them escape.

Edited by sifth
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, but she ends the episode surrounding Ben and Leia, with dozens of men, not letting them get into their escape ship.

 

She was fine either way, IMHO. If nobody helped Tala and Obi and they failed to escape on their own, it would have meant that the rescue operation was small and negligible by this point and she would have bagged a traitor and a notorious Jedi, while still being able to spy on Organas after she returned Leia.

But if they had help, the organization would merit investigation. If they escaped on their own, they'd still lead her to people willing to help them and/or would have provided an irrefutable proof of Organas connection to Kenobi that would have allowed the Empire to go for Organas that much earlier. As far as I can see, all possible outcomes would have favored her.

Lack of any defense for the fortress _was_ silly and that's why if the budget wasn't there for the required action, they shouldn't have even attempted it, IMHO. Or have come with some genuinely clever ideas how it could have been sabotaged, circumvented, etc., but I am genuinely unsure what those could have been given the clear liminations that this production labors under.

Edited by Maia
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2 hours ago, Maia said:

I  don't get the criticism that McGregor was too little on screen - it is quality, not quantity that was lacking in this episode. This idea that a main character needs to be in every scene and if not, it is  "bait and switch" or whatever because we follow a baddie or a supporting character for a bit is deeply weird to me.

The lack of screen time for Obi-Wan might not be an issue per se, but it's a signal that this show has no real purpose or direction. It certainly is not all that interested in Obi-Wan as a character.

My main gripe, outside of just the poor quality writing, is that the screenwriters have decided to use the limited time they have in the 4 episodes the've created, not to delve into Obi-Wan's psyche, show how the complex trauma of past events have affected him in detail, his reclusiveness etc, or to do any sort of deep dive on who Obi-Wan is or how he thinks.. 

.. but instead to just make us watch a series of escape set pieces. I mean how many have there been now? I feel like there is at least one per episode. It's like it's literally the only tool in the writers toolbox, the only way they can conceive to drive a story forward and create even a sliver of dramatic tension. It doesn't work though, seeing someone get captured, escape, attempt to be captured, escape, captured, interrogated, then rescued isn't the formula for excitement, especially that is the ONLY thing that is happening on this show.

And then the show is just doing the standard Disney thing or trying to do everything, and achieving nothing. So this isn't really an Obi-Wan story, any more than it is a Young Leia story, any more than it is a Third Sister story, any more than it is a story of Jedi undergrounds. It's all so unfocused and taped together. 

Its 4 episodes in an Obi Wan has barely spoken, and when he does its a highlight of the show. I have some vague understanding of what his character is now, but it's very surface level and its quite obvious stuff. I also feel like we will get to the end of this series and he'll be back in Tatooine and a hermit again and I'll wonder what the hell this series was even for!

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You know the best part of the trench coat scene?

Not only did they have Ben walking around with a giant bulging coat, they also needed to have Leia peek out of it at one point just in case the viewer didn't realize she was under there.  :lol: 

Only thing better would have been if they were also escaping with an astromech droid and they actually had Leia stand on its shoulders and wear a long coat. :lmao: 

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I'm enjoying the show, but I'm also not looking to pick it apart. I'm along for the ride.

However, the thing that bugged me most was no the trench coat gag (silly though it was). I was stunned that the three of them walked to the middle of the large open room, were discovered, and the savvy stormtroopers decided to un-surround them by lining up in battle line behind Reva. :dunno:

I do put a lot of these weird staging things as director choices due to production restraints. The Volume is a cool tool, but relying on it for all shots and locations is causing problems.

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Posted (edited)

Another scene that made me chuckle at its silliness is when Tala kills the two troopers that were escorting her. She literally just slaps one of them on the helmet and that was enough to unbalance him. Like I said, she had a lot of plot armor in this episode, so I imagine the character may get more appearances in other stuff, like maybe The Bad Batch or Andor, so they're using this show to establish her capabilities.

I think the directing for this show has not been that great, which is disappointing given that Deborah Chow was rightfully praised for her Mandalorian work. 

Edited by Corvinus85
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4 hours ago, Maia said:

I  don't get the criticism that McGregor was too little on screen - it is quality, not quantity that was lacking in this episode. This idea that a main character needs to be in every scene and if not, it is  "bait and switch" or whatever because we follow a baddie or a supporting character for a bit is deeply weird to me.

Agreed. This episode in particular, I struggle to recall any scene where McGregor wasn't on-screen (or voicing via communicator) that wasn't clearly establishing stakes or setting up tension for when he was on-screen. There are many legitimate criticisms of the series and this episode but this one is mystifying. 

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My opinion. She didn't plan on letting them escape. The tracker was a back up in case they came for her and got away. 

At the end of this season they will need to believably explain why no one is after Leia now that they think she is part of an underground rebellion, maybe they wash it off as only Third Sister was after her. So unless she spends the time between this show and ANH entirely with the Rebellion it will be hard to explain.

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32 minutes ago, mormont said:

Agreed. This episode in particular, I struggle to recall any scene where McGregor wasn't on-screen (or voicing via communicator) that wasn't clearly establishing stakes or setting up tension for when he was on-screen. There are many legitimate criticisms of the series and this episode but this one is mystifying. 

That’s a curious way to sidestep the issue.

Establishing stakes or setting up tension.. for scenes he was coincidentally in later, scenes which did little to nothing to build on his character, examine who he is, ask any interesting questions. 
 

The point is, Obi Wan is barely a plot point of the series. He’s set dressing. Sure they throw him into some action set pieces but on the whole the show is not interested in him, other than a as a plot device. He’s definitely not the centre of the show or what the show is about.

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We were over the Vader-Obi-Wan thing already - while it is technically believable that Obi-Wan didn't know this, narrative-wise it is kind of stupid he still should be in the dark ten years after ROTS. Tatooine is a backwater world, but it is also a hub for criminals and smugglers, and they would know stuff.

It was a cheap trick of the writers there to get emotional - a better way would have been to depict Obi-Wan sitting in his cave and be tortured over the fact that he failed to kill Anakin and transformed him into a monster. I mean, he should feel guilty about leaving the man as a burned and crippled ruin - that was a cruel thing to do.

More importantly, it is complete horseshit to assume that Bail Organa doesn't know about Vader's continued existence and didn't use the device he gave Obi-Wan to inform him about this. After all, with Vader still being alive the plan to hide the children may have needed a tweak, especially the plan to keep Luke with the Lars family.

And are we really to assume that one of the most influential Imperial Senators has no idea that Emperor employs a Sith Lord called Darth Vader as a special operative? In context, it also feels weird to assume Palpatine has a terrifying enforcer in Vader but keeps him a secret. Folks are not going to fear Vader when they don't know who he is, what he can do, and what he has done in the past. And to be sure - I don't mean that Palpatine should put Vader in the center of his propaganda efforts. But he should also not hide him. Vader should be the dark half of the Empire - publicly they try to play nice, but folks must know what happens when you break the rules, resist, whatever.

In context, folks on Tatooine knowing about the Inquisitorius but not the guy running it makes no sense. Presumably Darth Vader also personally hunted down some Jedi, so the whole underground movement should know about him and also all the people Vader interacted with over the years.

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I agree that Vader's name should be known, certainly by Bail Organa and, Obi-Wan should at least have heard rumors' of him, but is it really that unbelievable that they wouldn't know who Vader IS? His identity is quite a carefully guarded secret, isn't it?

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5 hours ago, Maia said:

It seems that Reva wants to bag the whole operation and maybe also spy on Organas whiles she is about it, so she put that bug into Leia's droid. And Tala had a perfectly good ship that they arrived in, that Reva would have allowed them to board if the speeders hadn't come for them. The speeders didn't fly in space either, but were brought into Nur atmosphere by a spaceship.

It would be interesting if she wanted to collect dirt on the Organas - but there is unfortunately no indication in that direction. All she seems to care about is the Jedi hunting business.

And do we actually assume that the whole torture/killing device Leia was put in was just there fore show? I don't think so. It makes sense as a back-up plan, but plan A definitely was to interrogate/torture Leia so she reveals where folks are.

2 minutes ago, Darryk said:

I agree that Vader's name should be known, certainly by Bail Organa and, Obi-Wan should at least have heard rumors' of him, but is it really that unbelievable that they wouldn't know who Vader IS? His identity is quite a carefully guarded secret, isn't it?

Nah, they all learned in ROTS that Anakin Skywalker took the Sith name of Lord Vader, so if a guy called Lord Vader walks around their conclusion would be that this guy in Anakin. Lucas kind of dropped the ball there in ROTS not making this more explicit. Anakin should have told both Padmé and Obi-Wan before he was crippled that he was Darth Vader now, that Anakin is dead and gone, etc. to hammer home the fact that the guy joined the Sith of his own free will and wanted to be Vader even before he had no other choice but to be Vader.

Thinking about Tatooine - we know the Inquisitorius employ bounty hunters and other criminal elements (e.g. Leia's abduction), and this kind of scum hangs out on Tatooine all the time as has been established again and again in various Star Wars movies, shows, books, etc. - meaning that Tatooine should actually be a place where you learn about Vader sooner than later. After all, Jedi hunting stuff is more likely to take place in the Outer Rim and other backwater worlds rather than the Core Worlds - and if it happens in the Core Worlds Vader and the Inqusitors would likely not employ bounty hunters and other criminals but rather the proper Imperial authorities.

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Towards the end of episode III, Ben and Yoda see a video of The Emperor calling Anakin Darth Vader. So Ben knew they were the same person. How Ben would have no idea that Darth Vader, who's basically third in charge of the Empire is still alive, is pretty silly. I think the writers of this show, just forgot about the scene where Ben and Yoda see the hologram message, to be honest.

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7 hours ago, Darryk said:

It explains a lot that Disney Star Wars is being run by people who basically despise the fanbase.

That's a bit strong but yeah, it was a significant own goal on Hidalgo's part and a PR fumble for Disney I'd say. Star Wars Theory is super dedicated and has an encyclopedic knowledge of SW that may be equal to Hidalgo's. His YouTube channel is almost as big as the official SW channel. He also seems like a genuinely nice guy as far as I can tell. 

He was also one of the few SW YouTubers who didn't come down like a ton of bricks on the sequel trilogy. Not someone they want to alienate. 

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57 minutes ago, Darryk said:

I agree that Vader's name should be known, certainly by Bail Organa and, Obi-Wan should at least have heard rumors' of him, but is it really that unbelievable that they wouldn't know who Vader IS? His identity is quite a carefully guarded secret, isn't it?

It's canon (IIRC) that Vader = Anakin is a secret as of the end of ROTJ. Only Luke, Leia and a couple of others know. Whether Obi-Wan should know as of this series would require me to think about ROTS, so I don't care, but anyway it's not general knowledge.

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1 hour ago, sifth said:

Towards the end of episode III, Ben and Yoda see a video of The Emperor calling Anakin Darth Vader. So Ben knew they were the same person. How Ben would have no idea that Darth Vader, who's basically third in charge of the Empire is still alive, is pretty silly. I think the writers of this show, just forgot about the scene where Ben and Yoda see the hologram message, to be honest.

The scene where they see the hologram is literally in the recap at the start of the first episode. My rationalising is that it's only Ben and Yoda who saw that, and after they assumed Anakin died on Mustafar they saw no reason to tell Bail Organa about it. So while Bail almost certainly knows that Darth Vader is high-up in the Imperial hierarchy he doesn't know it's Anakin, while Obi-Wan has been out in the backwater regions of a backwater planet and so while he knows about the Inquisitors in general he's never heard their boss's name.

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