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Star Warsing Across the Universe


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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:
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ROTS made it clear Obi-Wan knew Anakin's Sith name, so if talk about a Darth Vader - and a Darth Vader in a weirdo suit at that - were to spread then Obi-Wan would know.

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Exactly.  Like I said, this is confirmed when Third Sister tells Obi-Wan - he immediately reacts when she says Lord Vader and she expects him to know that's Anakin as well.

 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:
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About Leia and Ben: Even if she were to learn that the guy is Obi-Wan Kenobi, there is no reason why this should come up in ANH. They do not interact there and Leia's message to Obi-Wan is pretty brief.

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While the message may be brief, it starts by saying "years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars."  If she knew who he was, you'd think she'd start off with something like "years ago you rescued me from kidnappers."

 

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7 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

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While the message may be brief, it starts by saying "years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars." 

 

And he didn't, it turned out. At no point in the prequels (or I'm pretty sure The Clone Wars) does Obi-Wan serve Bail. Their interests align, but that's not remotely the same thing.

Which is my way of saying that soooo much of Star Wars has been retconned I've long since stopped caring.

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3 minutes ago, DMC said:
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While the message may be brief, it starts by saying "years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars."  If she knew who he was, you'd think she'd start off with something like "years ago you rescued me from kidnappers."

 

True enough, which is why we should hope they go with

Spoiler

Leia never being formally told that her savior is 'Obi-Wan Kenobi'. He introduced himself as Ben, and that's likely who he will remain to her throughout the remainder of the series. She might hear the name 'Obi-Wan' here and there, but that's something she might have forgotten ten years later.

That said - considering that Luke's Obi-Wan was also named 'Ben' she should make the connection in ANH ... but there you can pretend she did so offscreen. Although, of course, if this show had been made prior to ANH we would likely get a Leia telling Luke that she knew Ben, too, and they would share fond memories of him after their flight from the Death Star.

Also, of course, Bail should actually told her either after that adventure or when she contacted Obi-Wan in ANH who the hell the guy was, so there certainly is some small inconsistency there. But I don't mind that all that much.

In fact, I think the decision to convince Obi-Wan to leave Tatooine because Leia is in danger was a pretty good idea.

 

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1 minute ago, RumHam said:

And he didn't, it turned out. At no point in the prequels (or I'm pretty sure The Clone Wars) does Obi-Wan serve Bail. Their interests align, but that's not remotely the same thing.

Well, you could look at it as institutional framing.  As a jedi, Obi-Wan "served" the Senate.

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

True enough, which is why we should hope they go with

Agreed.

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6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, you could look at it as institutional framing.  As a jedi, Obi-Wan "served" the Senate.

Yeah, from a certain point a view. I think that's being generous though when at least as far as I remember Bail never gives Obi-Wan any orders or anything.

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6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

And he didn't, it turned out. At no point in the prequels (or I'm pretty sure The Clone Wars) does Obi-Wan serve Bail. Their interests align, but that's not remotely the same thing.

Which is my way of saying that soooo much of Star Wars has been retconned I've long since stopped caring.

Yes, that's one of the things that are actually silly. I mean, Lucas wrote those lines, so why the hell didn't he include this thing in the PT? Or, if it didn't suit him in those movies, he could have at least included it in TCW. There could have been an arc there - or perhaps even a number of arcs - where Bail Organa acted as supreme commander of a huge chunk of the Republic army, causing Obi-Wan to serve directly under him. Together they could have won crucial victories - say, beating back a Separatist attack on the Core Worlds.

One could even have made that part of the politics storyline, with Palpatine either getting rid of Bail's opposition in the Senate by having him deal with military matters ... or by having Bail getting more and more popular so that he it seemed, for a time, he could dare to challenge Palpatine for the leadership of the Senate.

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I think

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the Vader thing would have worked much better if the Third Sister had just reminded Obi-Wan that Vader was out there and very much interested in hunting him down. And his fear of Vader thereafter could have been completely explained by his fear that Vader might realize who the children are - Leia in this case. If Obi-Wan is caught now, Vader might eventually realize who she is.

It wasn't really necessary for the plot that Obi-Wan had no idea that Vader was still alive.

 

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25 minutes ago, RumHam said:

And he didn't, it turned out. At no point in the prequels (or I'm pretty sure The Clone Wars) does Obi-Wan serve Bail. Their interests align, but that's not remotely the same thing.

Which is my way of saying that soooo much of Star Wars has been retconned I've long since stopped caring.

See.  That's why some of these contradictions are there now, in the new show.  To help promulgate the weird stuff from the very first movie, when there wasn't anything beyond that, so nothing had been created.  It's all there now to make sense of then!  Yeah.

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We just not gonna talk about how Leia mentioned she never remembered her mom, and she died when she was young?

Or how Leia apparently does nothing but get captured over and over again?

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Do we need to spoiler tag? Seems unnecessary if there’s no other discussion to read. Spoilers:

I’m not sure about this Leia and Obi-Wan thing … Luke called him Ben all the time. She’s unlikely to meet another Jedi, so literally the only two she meets between now and ANH are this Ben guy with a beard who just rescued her, and this Ben guy Luke keeps going on about with the beard. And I really hate the idea that she pauses off screen and goes “oh shit it’s that Ben lol, anyway…”

And yea I thought maybe I’d been stupid to not realise he didn’t know Anakin was alive, so I’m glad it got brought up here. Does he leave Mustafar assuming Anakin has died? Does he know the name Vader? Is Vader for some reason not in the limelight, but then becomes more active later on, enough for Leia to say “I should’ve known he’d be holding your leash”? 

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8 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

We just not gonna talk about how Leia mentioned she never remembered her mom, and she died when she was young?

Luke qualifies the question as "your real mother" in ROTJ.  That part actually makes sense.  Well, that they were referring to Padme.  That Leia actually remembered her...

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Luke qualifies the question as "your real mother" in ROTJ.  That part actually makes sense.  Well, that they were referring to Padme.  That Leia actually remembered her...

Honestly, would’ve been so hard for Lucas to just let her live a bit longer, raise Luke and Leia for a few years on Alderaan? Pfff.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, that's one of the things that are actually silly. I mean, Lucas wrote those lines, so why the hell didn't he include this thing in the PT? Or, if it didn't suit him in those movies, he could have at least included it in TCW. There could have been an arc there - or perhaps even a number of arcs - where Bail Organa acted as supreme commander of a huge chunk of the Republic army, causing Obi-Wan to serve directly under him. Together they could have won crucial victories - say, beating back a Separatist attack on the Core Worlds.

One could even have made that part of the politics storyline, with Palpatine either getting rid of Bail's opposition in the Senate by having him deal with military matters ... or by having Bail getting more and more popular so that he it seemed, for a time, he could dare to challenge Palpatine for the leadership of the Senate.

Yeah, it's like he didn't re-watch the original movies or look at the scripts when he wrote the prequels. Barley anything lines up. Which would have been a lot more forgivable if the prequels were better movies.

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Rogue One has Organa repeating that Obi-Wan served him well during the Clone Wars. And in TCW, Organa asks for Kenobi's help when trapped during a battle. 

IMO, that is sufficient to make the line work. And it's not like TCW was exhaustive and necessarily covered every single noteworthy event characters were involved in.

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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Rogue One has Organa repeating that Obi-Wan served him well during the Clone Wars. And in TCW, Organa asks for Kenobi's help when trapped during a battle. 

IMO, that is sufficient to make the line work. And it's not like TCW was exhaustive and necessarily covered every single noteworthy event characters were involved in.

Could it also be possible that Bail may have embellished a little when telling young Leia tales of the Clone Wars and the daring do of the Jedi and Bail's own place among the battles...?

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Honestly, would’ve been so hard for Lucas to just let her live a bit longer, raise Luke and Leia for a few years on Alderaan? Pfff.

That's the most frustrating part, isn't it? Padmé's death was so ridiculously unnecessary and she was only treated like this because they didn't know what to do with her. I seem to remember that the initial idea during the OT was that Luke and Leia's mom was a central founding member of the Rebellion. It might have been quite a bit awkward, but I see this working out with Padmé claiming she had a miscarriage due Anakin's outburst. The question is whether she should have been forced into hiding, which of course makes it difficult to believe she remained around Leia, or whether she somehow manages to bullshits her way into remaining in Palpatine's good graces and keep her position in the Imperial senate as a front.

Heck, Vader obsessing about her is even the least of the problems. If she'd declare that she only ever loved Anakin, who is dead, then I can see Vader ending up avoiding her for the same reason he avoids setting foot on Tatooine. And Padmé could have then gotten murdered by Palpatine once her role in organizing the Rebel Alliance comes to light.

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Do we need to spoiler tag? Seems unnecessary if there’s no other discussion to read. Spoilers:

I’m not sure about this Leia and Obi-Wan thing … Luke called him Ben all the time. She’s unlikely to meet another Jedi, so literally the only two she meets between now and ANH are this Ben guy with a beard who just rescued her, and this Ben guy Luke keeps going on about with the beard. And I really hate the idea that she pauses off screen and goes “oh shit it’s that Ben lol, anyway…”

And yea I thought maybe I’d been stupid to not realise he didn’t know Anakin was alive, so I’m glad it got brought up here. Does he leave Mustafar assuming Anakin has died? Does he know the name Vader? Is Vader for some reason not in the limelight, but then becomes more active later on, enough for Leia to say “I should’ve known he’d be holding your leash”? 

Yes, Obi-Wan turned away thinking this was it for Anakin and it didn't want to watch him draw his last breath. Obi-Wan learned that Anakin became Vader at the Jedi Temple when he watched the security holos which included the moment when Palps calls him Vader. And Yoda says it clearly it out loud.

4 hours ago, DMC said:
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Alright, can someone explain to me exactly why Palpatine and/or Anakin would have any reason to keep Vader's identity a secret?  Are they worried Padme's parents are going to file a wrongful death suit?  You could say they don't want people to know Vader used to be a jedi but, ya know, the inquisitors are former jedis too.

The obvious reason would be they don't want Yoda and/or Obi-Wan to know he's still alive, but again, why?  Hell, wouldn't that make Palpatine seem more vulnerable, encouraging Yoda and/or Obi-Wan to attack?  Maybe that's it..it's a trap!  Just seems kinda silly.

Further, does this mean "Darth Vader" isn't a public figure for the first ten years of the empire?  Because if he is, both Yoda and Obi-Wan would immediately assume Vader is Anakin (as demonstrated by Obi-Wan's reaction when Third Sister tells him).  So if he's not a public figure, what the hell has he been doing for ten years?  Secretly training and commanding the inquisitors?

 

I'm pretty sure the Inquisitors are a secretive enough order that it's not common knowledge most were also Jedi.

As to Vader, it could also have to do with Vader not wanting it known to squash the identity of Anakin, perhaps thus making it easier for him to remain Vader. Ahsoka becomes a spy agent for the Rebellion and even she doesn't know until she gets close enough to feel his presence. 

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