NBA Finals - The Problem with Steph Curry

[briantw]

On 7/9/2022 at 4:20 PM, BigFatCoward said:

That's the contract of somebody who clearly has no interest in winning. 

“Trade me.”

”If you stay, we’ll give you 270 million dollars.”

”Always wanted to be here.”

[Wilbur]

6 hours ago, Rhom said:

We watched Hustle on Netflix ... sadly, he didn't recognize Dr. J ...

Got to provide the youth with a proper education, dad, so he can savor the allusions, the full Spectrum, as it were.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I remember Dr J walking past me at a pro-am golf event when I was a little kid. It blew me away how much taller he was than everyone else.

[Calibandar]

17 hours ago, Rhom said:

We watched Hustle on Netflix over the weekend. Stars Adam Sandler as a near burnt out basketball talent scout working for the Sixers. Lots of NBA cameos including Tyrese and most of the Philly roster. Anthony Edwards plays the primary antagonist in the draft process and his character plays for Kentucky. (Kinda ironic since he ran away from any sort of big schools in his real life collegiate experience!)

 

Great basketball movie. Blends Rocky with White Men Can't Jump. Has some harsh language, but my 11 year old has heard worse. We let him watch it and he geeked out at every cameo... sadly, he didn't recognize Dr. J but he immediately knew a couple of YouTube stars.  

 

Worth watching.

I enjoyed this film. Was a nice little insight into the NBA world and scouts, I had not seen anything on that before.

9 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I remember Dr J walking past me at a pro-am golf event when I was a little kid. It blew me away how much taller he was than everyone else.

One of the things that stood out to me was in the recent draft where Chet Paolo and Jabari walked outside and this crowd of normal people was waiting for them and how insanely they tower over everyone. Chet especially looks like a tower that walks.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Calibandar said:

One of the things that stood out to me was in the recent draft where Chet Paolo and Jabari walked outside and this crowd of normal people was waiting for them and how insanely they tower over everyone. Chet especially looks like a tower that walks.

Chet has to look very odd in person. Bomani Jones was talking about seeing him up close in person over the weekend and couldn't believe just how narrow his frame is.

[DanteGabriel]

20 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I remember Dr J walking past me at a pro-am golf event when I was a little kid. It blew me away how much taller he was than everyone else.

My brother went to some national award thing when he was in high school, probably 1987 or so. He came back with Dr. J's autograph on a napkin, gave it to me. I still have it framed up. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

My brother went to some national award thing when he was in high school, probably 1987 or so. He came back with Dr. J's autograph on a napkin, gave it to me. I still have it framed up. 

That just makes me sad that I lost my prized baseball signed by Bill Murray and every player (I think) on the St. Paul Saints (an independent minor league team affiliated with the Twins) when my mom took me and walked out on my dad. He's been a minority owner of the team for decades and would regularly sign balls and get players to sign them and hand them out to kids walking around the stadium when he visited. 

ETA: We also really need to start a new thread, lol.

[Calibandar]

So now apparently the Jazz are open to trading Donovan Mitchell, will be interesting to see where he goes to.

Teams will have to decide which of these 2 available stars they want the most.

[DireWolfSpirit]

No new bball news from me but I will commiserate with the lost autograph posts.

I lost a Jesse Owens autograph my mom had gotten when he keynoted some engagement she was at.

Really foolish of me to lose an icons autograph like that.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

44 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

So now apparently the Jazz are open to trading Donovan Mitchell, will be interesting to see where he goes to.

Teams will have to decide which of these 2 available stars they want the most.

It will be interesting to see if they screwed themselves by setting the market so high for Gobert. Teams seem nervous to make even bigger deals for the likes of KD and Donovan should command more.

I wonder if we'll reach a place soon where large cash considerations become an option like with European football. 

[Rhom]

42 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It will be interesting to see if they screwed themselves by setting the market so high for Gobert. Teams seem nervous to make even bigger deals for the likes of KD and Donovan should command more.

I wonder if we'll reach a place soon where large cash considerations become an option like with European football. 

Just spitballing this and have not thought it through entirely... but should a guy like Donovan demand more than Gobert?  I tend to agree that he is "better" but he is also less unique in my mind.  As in, there are a metric fuck ton of players who do what Donovan does but maybe just a hair less effectively.  How many big guys are there who honestly do what Gobert does?  

As to the KD vs Donovan question, I'm really torn on what to think here as well.  KD is objectively better, but he's a lot older and has shown himself to be a flight risk.  Whereas with Donovan, you are getting a young guy still building his reputation.  I think I'd feel more comfortable giving up assets for Donovan because I would feel somewhat confident that I would have him for the long term. 

[Slurktan]

4 minutes ago, Rhom said:

As to the KD vs Donovan question, I'm really torn on what to think here as well.  KD is objectively better, but he's a lot older and has shown himself to be a flight risk.  Whereas with Donovan, you are getting a young guy still building his reputation.  I think I'd feel more comfortable giving up assets for Donovan because I would feel somewhat confident that I would have him for the long term. 

Not much of a question to me. Scorer who is younger but short and doesn't play defense who has shown himself to be a diva vs scorer who is older and taller who plays defense and has shown himself to be a diva. If you are a good team you should be confident kd  will stick around.

[Calibandar]

I also dont see KD as a player who is a flight risk. He wants to leave the Nets because its become a mess and he doesnt have faith in it anymore, which a lot of people find understandable. If he goes to a new destinations its likely he will stay there a few years and play out the rest of his prime.

I think both players are very attractive packages for teams. Maybe Dallas can make a run at Mitchell since they are not even being mentioned in the Durant sweepstakes. I just dont see a ton of stuff they can give up thats appealing.

[Maithanet]

51 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Not much of a question to me. Scorer who is younger but short and doesn't play defense who has shown himself to be a diva vs scorer who is older and taller who plays defense and has shown himself to be a diva. If you are a good team you should be confident kd  will stick around.

Donovan Mitchell is a diva?  What has he done?  I can't remember anything.  Mitchell didn't request this trade, this is just the Jazz realizing that they need to blow everything up and Mitchell is too good to allow that, so he needs to go. 

Durant is a willing defender, but his injuries are definitely showing up on that end, and he's gonna be 35 soon.  I don't expect him to be a defensive liability for a couple more years, but he's definitely getting there. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

Just spitballing this and have not thought it through entirely... but should a guy like Donovan demand more than Gobert?  I tend to agree that he is "better" but he is also less unique in my mind.  As in, there are a metric fuck ton of players who do what Donovan does but maybe just a hair less effectively.  How many big guys are there who honestly do what Gobert does?  

I guess it comes down to team need. The Wolves overpaid for Gobert, but he was exactly what they needed, an ace rim protector who will dramatically improve their defense. He just needs to viable on lobs from Edwards and Russell on the offensive side. Likewise I think the Heat, for example, could overpay for Donovan because they don't need his defense (and I expect they think they can improve him on that side).

52 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

I also dont see KD as a player who is a flight risk. He wants to leave the Nets because its become a mess and he doesnt have faith in it anymore, which a lot of people find understandable. If he goes to a new destinations its likely he will stay there a few years and play out the rest of his prime.

The Nets are a mess in large part due to KD's actions. I can understand why teams are nervous to handover so much for a guy who could blow it all up in less than two years.

[Maithanet]

I know that huge multi-team trades are way easier in theory than in practice, but a 3 team trade involving the Jazz, Nets and some interested team with lots of assets makes a lot of sense.  Like say, Toronto.  The Nets want/need guys who can play because tanking is not an option. 

Nets receive:  Donovan Mitchell + change

Raptors receive:  Kevin Durant

Jazz receive:  Lots of picks and young guys from Toronto. 

 

That would mean Toronto going all in on winning a championship, which went well for them last time.  The advantage of this trade over a straight Toronto-Brooklyn deal is that Toronto's main assets are young-ish wing players, rather than picks, and the Jazz would be more interested in that than Brooklyn would be.  This makes sense for Toronto as they could hold on to Barnes and enough veteran talent to be contenders with Durant.  This makes sense for the Nets because a team of Simmons + Mitchell could actually work together (I assume Irving will be traded to LAL).  And it makes sense for the Jazz because they're going into a rebuild, and thus getting a ton of picks from Toronto (particularly those late in the decade after Durant is gone) will be very valuable. 

Obviously getting the details ironed out is extremely difficult on huge trades like this, which is why it won't happen.  But the end result that I'm imagining feels like a good place for all three teams. 

[Proudfeet]

I don't think Toronto would be in a position to contend if they give up the players necessary to make the deal. A roster of Siakam, Van Vleet, Barnes and KD isn't all that inspiring, and they still need a bench even with short rotations . And expecting Broucher to make up for Ibaka and Gasol last time is a bit much, assuming he hasn't been included in the deal.

I'm curious if the Spurs will make a bid for Simmons now that they have given Murray away and hired Brown back as a coach. Or maybe they are just positioning for Wembanyama.

 

[Maithanet]

17 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I don't think Toronto would be in a position to contend if they give up the players necessary to make the deal. A roster of Siakam, Van Vleet, Barnes and KD isn't all that inspiring, and they still need a bench even with short rotations . And expecting Broucher to make up for Ibaka and Gasol last time is a bit much, assuming he hasn't been included in the deal.

I guess that's just somewhere we'll agree to disagree.  Those four absolutely sound like a championship core to me.  Yes, they'll need to make sure guys 5-8 on the roster are not a complete liability, but those guys represent a complete package in terms of NBA skills to win a ring. 

[Calibandar]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

The Nets are a mess in large part due to KD's actions. I can understand why teams are nervous to handover so much for a guy who could blow it all up in less than two years.

It doesnt seem like teams are nervous though, or that teams even worry about Durant's character like you do.

What they balk at is the ginormous asking price Brooklyn has. Obviously any team trading for him has to be a contender or none of it makes sense and you can only give it up a part of your roster and get Durant and be competitive, rather than gut it like Brooklyn might want. 

And sure, we can say that KD has been a part of some bad decisions made in Brooklyn, though....personally the only one that comes to mind is his and Kyrie's involvement in giving DeAndre a deal. Most of the mess in Brooklyn has been caused by Kyrie and his unreliability and unavailability. 

I guess what does concern me about Durant in this instance is....why does he actually want to leave? Is it unhappiness with the team ( Marks, the owner)? Or because he doesnt like the roster? Because the latter makes sense, but the former does not, I dont see what the Nets did to make him want to leave. That they should be very skeptical about signing Kyrie to a long term deal makes a ton of sense and you cant blame them for that.

5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I guess that's just somewhere we'll agree to disagree.  Those four absolutely sound like a championship core to me.  Yes, they'll need to make sure guys 5-8 on the roster are not a complete liability, but those guys represent a complete package in terms of NBA skills to win a ring. 

I agree that that would be a very strong core, if they could even keep Siakam and Barnes both...but that does seem little to give up for Toronto in a trade, 2-way or 3-way.

[Maithanet]

6 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

I agree that that would be a very strong core, if they could even keep Siakam and Barnes both...but that does seem little to give up for Toronto in a trade, 2-way or 3-way.

That's fair, I was just going off the team that Proudfeet mentioned.  I agree that any Toronto trade for KD is probably going to need to include Siakam (assuming Barnes is off the table as the Raptors have indicated).

Quote

I guess what does concern me about Durant in this instance is....why does he actually want to leave? Is it unhappiness with the team ( Marks, the owner)? Or because he doesnt like the roster? Because the latter makes sense, but the former does not, I dont see what the Nets did to make him want to leave. That they should be very skeptical about signing Kyrie to a long term deal makes a ton of sense and you cant blame them for that.

I agree for the most part.  I'm not even that down on the Nets as currently constructed.  I think that Simmons/Irving/Durant makes more sense than Harden/Irving/Durant.  Simmons elite skills are passing and defense, which works very well with Durant and Irving.  He's bad off the ball, which isn't ideal, but that's why they need to play together and gel.  Simmons weird skill set is extremely hard to build a successful team around, but what Brooklyn has for him is better than most teams. 

If you're Durant, I understand that your window as a 1A guy capable of winning a title is closing.  You already wasted 3 years in Brooklyn.  But the quick fix of going to another contender (knowing that team will have to ship a ton of talent back to Brooklyn) isn't as appealing as it sounds.  It isn't easy to see where Durant could get traded to and still have the pieces to win a championship (possible exception for Boston and GSW, which don't seem that interested anyway). 

But it seems like Durant isn't happy with "maybe this could work" in Brooklyn and instead wants to get a better team around him to win now.  It's just an open question of how much any contending team is going to have left after they make that trade.