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NBA Finals - The Problem with Steph Curry


Maithanet
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Steph 2014-15 first MVP season: 24/4/8
Steph 2015 Finals: 26/5/6

His shooting percentages were down, but his gravity was still real. He should have been the Finals MVP that year, not Iggy. LeBron was awesome per usual in that series and somehow he got the award because he kind of defended him (which makes LeBrons track down block in 2016 all the more hilarious as he stole his soul).

2019 doesn't really matter to me because the Raptor's had no shot against a healthy Warriors team. None. This Boston squad would fuck up that team even with Tatum being bad (and probably pretty hurt). 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

2019 doesn't really matter to me because the Raptor's had no shot against a healthy Warriors team. None. This Boston squad would fuck up that team even with Tatum being bad (and probably pretty hurt).

This Boston team would have no shot against the 2019 Warriors either.  And the 2019 Raptors are better than the Heat team that took the Celtics to 7, and probably better than the Bucks team without Middleton too (they beat the 2019 Bucks after all).  I think you're really selling them short.  They were extremely solid on both ends of the floor.

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5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

This Boston team would have no shot against the 2019 Warriors either.  

What team ever would? The Warriors set the single season win record in 2016 and then added KD, who I personally think is better than Kobe. Jordan, Magic and Bird's best teams would probably lose to them, though there's some valid arguments about what era they'd play in and with what rules. The only team that I think would have a real shot regardless of that, ironically enough, is the best Shaq and Kobe Lakers team because I have no idea what they would do with the former. But Kobe would probably shoot them out of it like he did against the Pistons. 

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And the 2019 Raptors are better than the Heat team that took the Celtics to 7, and probably better than the Bucks team without Middleton too (they beat the 2019 Bucks after all).  I think you're really selling them short.  They were extremely solid on both ends of the floor.

It's an interesting thought. Idk how to compare them to the Heat because they were so banged up by the end of it. Butler is obviously their best player, but Herro was their regular season scorer and they were up big when he left game three and that's where the series began to swing, and on top of that Lowry, Strus and Tucker were clearly hurt. Bam was the only key who seemed fresh and he repeatedly shrank when Timelord was guarding him. 

The Bucks without Middleton probably take them to seven and what happens next is hard to say. Boston's roster is better equipped to defend Giannis than the Raptors were, but the lack of a second scoring threat would be problematic. 

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4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What team ever would? The Warriors set the single season win record in 2016 and then added KD, who I personally think is better than Kobe. Jordan, Magic and Bird's best teams would probably lose to them, though there's some valid arguments about what era they'd play in and with what rules. The only team that I think would have a real shot regardless of that, ironically enough, is the best Shaq and Kobe Lakers team because I have no idea what they would do with the former. But Kobe would probably shoot them out of it like he did against the Pistons.

You're the one who brought up the 2019 Raptors being inferior to the healthy 2019 Warriors as some meaningful shot against the Raptors.  I don't know why that's relevant for anything.

As for the rest, I don't know who I'd favor in the 2019 Raptors vs the Celtics.  I think Leonard is a bit better and more reliable than Tatum, although it's very close.  The Raptors aren't as big as Boston, but they're not a small team by any means, since they almost always had two of Siakam/Ibaka/Gasol on the floor.  Both teams had plenty of playoff experience, but little Finals experience (except for Leonard and Ibaka I suppose).  It would be a good series.

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22 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

You're the one who brought up the 2019 Raptors being inferior to the healthy 2019 Warriors as some meaningful shot against the Raptors.  I don't know why that's relevant for anything.

Just that they're an incredibly weak champion.

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As for the rest, I don't know who I'd favor in the 2019 Raptors vs the Celtics.  I think Leonard is a bit better and more reliable than Tatum, although it's very close.  The Raptors aren't as big as Boston, but they're not a small team by any means, since they almost always had two of Siakam/Ibaka/Gasol on the floor.  Both teams had plenty of playoff experience, but little Finals experience (except for Leonard and Ibaka I suppose).  It would be a good series.

I think Tatum is one of the three players I'd most want to build a team around for the next 3-5 years, but Kawhi at that time is a good deal better than Tatum is right now. That said, I'm not sure how that Raptors team would score on this Boston squad unless Kawhi when nuts in four games and it looks like that's what it's going to take Steph as well in this series. 

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5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Just that they're an incredibly weak champion.

Well you're going to need to come up with more than just "they're weaker than the 2019 Warriors when healthy" to prove that.  If you want a particularly weak champion, the 2011 Mavs and the 2020 Lakers are better choices. 

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42 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Well you're going to need to come up with more than just "they're weaker than the 2019 Warriors when healthy" to prove that.  If you want a particularly weak champion, the 2011 Mavs and the 2020 Lakers are better choices. 

I'll bite. I think when ranking the greatest players of all-time, Dirk is higher than Kawhi though part of that is due to health. But looking at the rest of the rosters, the Mavs stack up pretty well comparatively. You can argue that every player with a recognizable name was a bit past their prime other than Chandler, but they still had a lot of guys with good NBA careers. Kidd was truly old, but The Matrix, Peja, Terry and Butler were still respectable players. That team isn't as bad as it's made out to be and they did crush the baby Thunder before defeating a Heat team most people thought would walk to a championship that year (and they were healthy so no excuses for them).

The bubble Lakers is interesting. I don't think the roster 3-15 was that impressive, but at the time LeBron and AD were both viewed as top 5ish players and often times that can be enough so long as the rest of your team isn't terrible. And in the bubble we actually got to see some of the best basketball ever because their were no travel concerns and those were the least distracted teams ever. I know a lot of people think that season was an aberration, and it certainly was for AD shooting from outside, but I've been buying into the argument that the following season was actually more distorted than 2020.

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On 6/12/2022 at 12:27 AM, Tywin et al. said:

Green's traditional accounting numbers were never very good and they have clearly declined in the last few years, but he's one of the odd cases that's hard to measure. Draymond's impact on the Warriors defense is huge (though he's also been bad on that end this series) and his ability to be a primary ball handler plays an integral role in setting up their half court offense. 

Well his importance to Golden State is still very significant in terms of what he does as you described, and intangibles.

But he had that a few years ago as well, its just that now he's become such a liability on offense that even Kerr wonders if he can still play him. His production has slumped to PJ Tucker like levels. And hey, even Milwaukee was content to play 4 against 5 offensively last year because of what Tucker brought on defense.

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9 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Well his importance to Golden State is still very significant in terms of what he does as you described, and intangibles.

But he had that a few years ago as well, its just that now he's become such a liability on offense that even Kerr wonders if he can still play him. His production has slumped to PJ Tucker like levels. And hey, even Milwaukee was content to play 4 against 5 offensively last year because of what Tucker brought on defense.

Stuck at home sick and saw Nick Wright make this point except Tucker isn't a complete liability because he's still a threat from the corner. Draymond can't shoot at all. He can't even be relied upon to score near the rim with one defender just close to him. 

I haven't watched any of BR's one on one hypotheticals, but the comments about Green v. Rodman were pretty funny given that might end up being the longest game of first to 15 ever.

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9 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Well his importance to Golden State is still very significant in terms of what he does as you described, and intangibles.

But he had that a few years ago as well, its just that now he's become such a liability on offense that even Kerr wonders if he can still play him. His production has slumped to PJ Tucker like levels. And hey, even Milwaukee was content to play 4 against 5 offensively last year because of what Tucker brought on defense.

Tucker is a much better 3 point shooter than Green.  Tucker mostly just parks behind the 3 point line and waits to see if someone gives him the ball, but he can hit open looks at an NBA level (he's career 36% behind the arc).  You can't just not cover him, but you can get away with putting your worst defender on him at all times and even still that guy can poach the lane a bit.

Green...it's pretty obvious that the Celtics would rather have Green shooting uncontested corner 3s than Curry shooting contested 30 footers.  Green isn't getting the PJ Tucker treatment, he's getting the Tony Allen treatment.  Don't cover him at all and if he shoots from anywhere outside 3 feet, you're happy. 

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6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I haven't watched any of BR's one on one hypotheticals, but the comments about Green v. Rodman were pretty funny given that might end up being the longest game of first to 15 ever.

Yikes.  I think Green's superior handle would be enough to eek out the win, but it would be ugly as hell.  And maybe Rodman could just outrebound and make 15 putbacks. 

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16 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Tucker is a much better 3 point shooter than Green.  Tucker mostly just parks behind the 3 point line and waits to see if someone gives him the ball, but he can hit open looks at an NBA level (he's career 36% behind the arc).  You can't just not cover him, but you can get away with putting your worst defender on him at all times and even still that guy can poach the lane a bit.

Tucker was actually the best in the league by percentage midway through the season. But he couldn't hit anything in the playoffs, just like the entire team which was the best overall shooting team from outside in the regular season. Bit of a head scratcher that they couldn't hit wide open shots against the Celtics unless everyone simply had no legs.

18 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Yikes.  I think Green's superior handle would be enough to eek out the win, but it would be ugly as hell.  And maybe Rodman could just outrebound and make 15 putbacks. 

With today's version of Green I think Rodman wins for that exact reason. That said if I was allowed to place a bet on any outcome I'd pick the game not ending because they started fighting (and even in that scenario I don't know who I'd pick).

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3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Green...it's pretty obvious that the Celtics would rather have Green shooting uncontested corner 3s than Curry shooting contested 30 footers.  Green isn't getting the PJ Tucker treatment, he's getting the Tony Allen treatment.  Don't cover him at all and if he shoots from anywhere outside 3 feet, you're happy. 

In that last game, after his dismal first half, Green wasn't even shooting when he was below the basket. He passed it to Looney like he was Ben Simmons passing to Thybulle in that Atlanta game.

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44 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

In that last game, after his dismal first half, Green wasn't even shooting when he was below the basket. He passed it to Looney like he was Ben Simmons passing to Thybulle in that Atlanta game.

He just did it again.  Got a pass for a semi contested dunk and he kicked it out to Wiggins for a 3.

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"It's not illegal if it's not called"

-JVG

 

I've shaking my head all playoffs at how Boston gets away with so much. Especially in the Nets series when people were talking about how they couldn't believe how well they were guarding KD. More people should have responded with, "Well, it's a lot easier to do if you just foul him every time and dare the refs to call it." And because they have such a good reputation as a defensive team, they're not.

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5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Curry hasn't hit a 3 and the warriors are up 8.  Wouldn't have called that.  

Boston +10 on turnovers and they're not shooting well. They've also hit fewer FTs despite getting a few more attempts and drawing more fouls, many of which have happened early in the quarters.

Timelord has been impressive. He's +13 while everyone else on Boston is in the red. He's so good defensively. 

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