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The Runes of House Royce


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On 6/9/2022 at 12:50 PM, Seams said:

Patches" is part of the peach symbolism. Stannis won't eat a peach, but he does keep Patches nearby. (But what does it mean that the daughter of Stannis has a stone cheek?)

Brilliant! Never thought of the shy shireen as Stone cheeked. Or patches and peaches. 
 

This is totally wild and I’ve  yet to find any true evidence but If Danny’s peach wasn’t a peach but her miscarriage, or something along those lines, then Stannis’s daughter having a bite? On her cheek and patches having a patched face, Roberts peaches picked from his own peach brothel, Stannis’s and cannibals, the child preserves of Slyse.(was that her?or only TV?) Slyse calling Edric storm the  foul fruit of fornication. Gaaah! Nooo~! It’s soylent green! and How to serve man! All over again! You blew it up! You damn dirty apes!!!….this is a rabbit hole of creepiness I must get to the bottom of!

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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On 6/9/2022 at 12:50 PM, Seams said:

the "Lamb Men," a group of people often attacked by the Dothraki and held in contempt by them because they are shepherds and not horsemen. So the fact that she and the Widow of the Waterfront

I had this idea of the weaving of Westeros.
 

Elements of a foot-treadle floor loom

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loom

 

When I was looking at the map and trying to define borders of domains. Looking at the wall as the back beam of a loom and running a thread down from each gate. With the Gods Eye as the heddle. Kings Landing as the seat.          
     Frustration trying to fit in Essos and all the other types of looms and knitting circles (( I call it the Grey circle)) kept not panning out. I’m either completely wrong or missing something. I’m now looking at ploughing or plows and furrows. 
 

I didn’t see the teeth thing. That was another thing that bugged me. One tooth three teeth etc. teeth being  a gate or portal is spot on I think. Teeth could be the teeth of a comb on a loom with words representing thread? Raven teeth, The 100, century?? 
 

Anyway it was the Lamb men and widow that made me think of wool and spiders. 

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8 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

I had this idea of the weaving of Westeros.

Interesting metaphor. I'll be curious to see where you are able to take this.

Someone in this forum pointed out that Masha Heddle could be a clue to fabric-making in Westeros. She is the innkeeper at (I believe) the inn at the crossroads at some point, and comes from a line of innkeepers.

Much to my delight and surprise, I also found at some point that the word "fell," as in Winterfell, is a synonym for "seam."

So you may find hidden references to clothing and fabric that don't entirely support the idea of Westeros as a loom where fabric is woven (although I really like that possibility and hope you can find more hints). But the fabric references are many and varied: 

  • tatting (lace-making) possibly tied to the Tattered Prince or Myrish Lace (Myrcella = Lace Myr?)
  • sowing / sewing,
  • ragged garments,
  • burned fabric (Sansa's bedsheet; Jon using flaming curtains to fight the wight),
  • bardings,
  • tapestries,
  • banners,
  • furs,
  • a dressmaker,
  • Septas as sewing instructors,
  • a weaver escaping the pale mare through the hole in the wall at Astapor (along with a brickmaker and a cobbler),
  • Joffrey having Tommen's pet fawn made into a doublet, 
  • Mance's mended cloak,
  • Tyrion sewing a motley garment aboard the Shy Maid, etc. 

You might want to see what you can find about House Weaver, in the Iron Islands. GRRM hasn't told us much, but it's interesting that this house comes from the "We do not sow" area of the Seven Kingdoms. There may be wordplay on reaver and weaver. 

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On 6/9/2022 at 11:58 AM, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Mirri Maz Duur chanted words in a tongue that Dany did not know, and a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, its blade covered with ancient glyphs



"No. I brought you these." Ser Jorah produced his pair of gloves, and slapped them down on the table beside the other gifts the widow had received this morning: a silver goblet, an ornate fan carved of jade leaves so thin they were translucent, and an ancient bronze dagger marked with runes. Beside such treasures the gloves looked cheap and tawdry
.



That dagger always stuck out to me. I wonder if it’s the same knife as Mirri’s and if Jeor had given it to the widow earlier or someone else had left Danny’s group…with even more treasures.

I don't think the bronze daggers are the same. Glyphs are different from runes. Both appear to be ritual or ceremonial knives however. Mirri uses hers as a sacrificial knife, to slay Drogo's red stallion for the ritual. From what I've learned about ritual weapons, they are never used for mundane activities, only for their special purpose. Inscriptions can be names, prayers, spells etc. The warhammer of Tristifer bore runes telling of its history:

 

On 6/8/2022 at 8:13 PM, Curled Finger said:

Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history,

And in another example, the glyphs on the dragonbinder horn found by Euron translate to instructions on how to claim the horn. 

 In the North, bronze and iron are considered metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold. Since the FM supposedly learned the forging of Iron from the Andals, bronze must have been the predominat metal thought strong enough to withstand the cold, or material effective in the fight against the Others during the Long Night. They had nothing stronger and probably needed some kind of reinforcement. The Royce runes could thus be spells specifically crafted in the bronze to ward against the Others and this may explain why their bronze armor exhibits no special protective qualitites against mortal men. 

What struck me on reading the quotes again are the rest of the gifts the widow received. The silver goblet and the ancient bronze dagger marked with runes could relate to the Chalice and Athame (ritual knife) used to celebrate the Great Rite in Gardnarian Wicca. In Wicca, the chalice symbolizes the element of water and the womb of the goddess. The handle of the athame is usually inscribed and is associated with fire and male energy. Both play a role in the Great Rite, a ritual celebrating birth and creation, basically a fertility rite akin to the sacred marriage (Hieros Gamos). The athame is placed in the chalice to represent sexual intercourse between the god and the goddess and is performed by the high priest and high priestess of the coven. The ritualized sexual magic is usually carried out when the coven is in need of powerful spiritual intervention. The athame itself is thought to direct energy during rituals and magical rites. Its protective functions include keeping evil spirits at bay and subjugating them if necessary. 

Jade was prized in ancient Chinese culture and considered more valuable than gold and silver. The Chinese word for jade is closely related to the word for Emperor. The stone symbolizes heaven and is associated with the 5 virtues - wisdom, justice, compassion, modesty, and courage. Green jade represents the heart and an elixir made from the powdered form was thought to prolong life. As such, jade is a stone of immortality. The widows new green jade fan is crafted in the form of leaves, another fertility symbol. 

The widow of the waterfront is very old and has survived her husband by 30 years. She is also described as vulpine (foxlike) with reptilian eyes. She refers to her age very often during that chapter. Upon receiving Jorah's gift of the gloves she comments:

Quote

“Gloves for my poor old wrinkled hands. How nice.” 

The widow made no move to touch them.

She did not seem to pleased with Jorah's gift. Perhaps she wanted no reminding of her age by a petitiioner, the gloves that only disguise her age as opposed to the other gifts that symbolize a renewal of life. Maybe the gifts are a nod at the origin of those tools and practices, most likely during the Dawn Age of the Jade Emperor and we are supposed to see bronze knives in that light. 

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On 6/9/2022 at 9:50 PM, Seams said:

At the wedding feast, Ser Ilyn Payne hands Joffrey a sword that is bright with runes. Joffrey uses it to open the cold pie. This could be a symbolic dragon hatching, as flying creatures may be symbolic allusions to dragons. But who do we know who is called Little Bird, and who is also present at the wedding feast? Could it be that Sansa is "hatched" at the feast? She is suddenly able to escape after months of captivity in King's Landing. In each of the other symbolic "hatchings" cited above, someone dies: Mirri and Khal Drogo die in Dany's pyre; several characters die in the storm

How about pie/pyre? Maybe its that simple. The ultimate "pie" weapon, hatched from a pyre. Dragons. ;)

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On 6/9/2022 at 9:50 PM, Seams said:

Furthermore, I suspect that "Patchface," sometimes known as "Patches" is part of the peach symbolism. Stannis won't eat a peach, but he does keep Patches nearby. (But what does it mean that the daughter of Stannis has a stone cheek?)

Peaches, Patches and Stones - its all about fertility

In the narrative, peaches are associated with:

  • Highgarden and the Arbor where peaches grow (fertility)
  • the sweetness of life, rejuvenation (Dany, Renly, King Robert), reincarnation (Renly)
  • sex-workers/brothels, passionate sex, illicit sex (The Peach- brothel, Asha, King Robert, the Dornishman's wife)
  • Growth of a beard on young men (peach-fuzz) - so cheeks
  • while climbing that fateful day, shortly before coming upon Jamie and Cersei in the tower, Bran thinks the air tastes as sweet as a winter peach - another illicit sex symbol
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“A man should never refuse to taste a peach,” Renly said as he tossed the stone away. “He may never get the chance again. Life is short, Stannis. Remember what the Starks say. Winter is coming.”

Renly throws the stone away when he finishes the peach he offered Stannis - all that's left for Stannis is the stone, symbolically. And Stannis is like the stone which is manifested by his daughter. Stannis does not exhibit any of the the qualities the peach symbolizes. Fertility is a problem, more children are not forthcoming. The issues of starvation while besieged at Storm's End and again in the North at the Crofter's village show that he is not associated with the fertility of the land either. 
The sweetness of life is alien to him - he is stern, serious, stubborn and largly unforgiving. His face has a tightness to it, he grinds his teeth and has thin pale lips. He would probably never visit a brothel, left his wife at Dragonstone and only performed his marital duties a couple of times a year, taking no joy in it. His fringe of hair is like the "shadow of a crown."

Rejuvenation does not apply to him. He grows even more gaunt after Mel takes part of his soul to birth a shadow. 
Stannis might as well have been struck by the curse of the Barrow King as far as his looks go. He's like the stone statue of the Shrouded Lord. His father hoped Patchface would teach Stannis how to laugh but that never happened. I think the author wants us to link Stannis to the Shrouded Lord. The Battle of the Blackwater is one clue, a battle on a river fought with wildfire created by magical means. Stannis's association with the sea through his post as Master of Ships and his later association with Mel's fire-magic is another. As we see with the battle between Garin the Great of the Rhoynar and the Volanteens/Valyrians, water magic and fire magic do not mix well, the resulting foul humors cause greyscale and this is what we see in unfortunate Shireen. 

Stannis didn't get peaches but he got Patches. Both Patches and Shireen are "patchfaced." Patchface has his red and green motley face of patches while Shireen's face is "patched" with a healthy cheek and the grey and black stone "motley" left behind by greyscale. 

Quote

.... the legacy of the bout of greyscale that had almost claimed her in the crib. Across half one cheek and well down her neck, her flesh was stiff and dead, the skin cracked and flaking, mottled black and grey and stony to the touch.

This is all linked to the underlying fertility magic theme. With his ridiculous antlered helm Patchface is a warped horned-lord figure. He has none of the qualities of a horned lord of the hunt or of vegetation - except for the dying and resurrecting part. His green and red patches probably symbolize "green blood" and we can connect him to the Orphans of the Greenblood, those Rhoynish refugees who still cherish the Mother Rhoyne. Since it is stated that the Rhoynish Water Witches could make deserts bloom, the Rhoynar must have been involved in fertility magic and since all magic comes at a cost, something went wrong somewhere. For this we must go back even further, to the time of the Bloodstone Emperor. The bloodstone is  predominantly composed of green jasper with red inclusions of hematite that resemble drops of blood. I'm quite convinced that the Great Empire of the Dawn heavily employed fertility magic until it came to a tipping point, causing widespread desertification and drought. The bloodstone represents this. Greenblood became Bloodstone. Winter and the Long Night then followed the heat and the drought. But as Patchface shows by dying and resurrecting, that wasn't the end of it. 

Symbolically, the "green blood" of fertility represented by Patches' motley turns to mottled black and grey stone, dead and lifeless, a substrate on which nothing grows, manifested in Shireen's face, the heir to her father's /ancestors diabolical  magic.   

Peaches and patches are related though, each telling a part of the fertility story. When you examine the peach associations above, you'll notice the peaches do not represent true fertility or that which is expected of a horned god / mother goddess relationship either. Dany's peach grows in a city of bones, a place of death. Renly, also a horned-lord figure with his antlered helm, may have married a maiden "goddess" of Highgarden, the breadbasket of the realm, but he prefers men to women. The main "goddess of the realm," Cersei, cheats on her horned-god husband and fathers children with her brother instead. The sex-workers at the Peach work under a proprietess named Tansy and all probably drink tansy-tea (moon tea) to avoid having children. Red-haired Tansy sleeps with a man from the BWB named Greenbeard, another pairing of the problematic red and green. 

So in terms of the wordplay, peaches and patches form a pair and cause the "stone," the infertile ground where nothing grows. 

Edited by Evolett
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15 hours ago, Seams said:

You might want to see what you can find about House Weaver, in the Iron Islands. GRRM hasn't told us much, but it's interesting that this house comes from the "We do not sow" area of the Seven Kingdoms. There may be wordplay on reaver and weaver. 

Words of House Weaver:  "We Do Not Sew"

Edited by Aebram
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17 hours ago, Evolett said:

How about pie/pyre? Maybe its that simple. The ultimate "pie" weapon, hatched from a pyre. Dragons. ;)

Yes! Maybe we should examine this in depth, now that we have sorted out some of the layers of meaning surrounding pies and pyres. It looks as if the Puns and Wordplay thread had only a passing mention of the possible pie / pyre connection. (I thought I remembered that Pycelle was also part of the group of linked words, but it looks as if spies and spices were on my mind at the time.)

The pie / pyre reference is a couple paragraphs from the bottom of that long-ish comment.)

17 hours ago, Evolett said:

I don't think the bronze daggers are the same. Glyphs are different from runes.

You are probably right that they are not the same. However, I think the author wants us to see some major similarities. The surrounding items and descriptive details offer clues:

Both blades are shaped like leaves. The red leaves of weirwood trees are shaped like hands. Bloody hands, to be precise. Because the trees had a history of receiving human sacrifices, this seems like a logical link to the sacrificial blade in the Mirri scene and the doomed voyage being arranged by the Widow. 

I am also remembering Jaqen and Arya's interaction around the Weasel Soup attack at Harrenhal:

Quote

"You swore. The gods heard you swear."

"The gods did hear." There was a knife in his hand suddenly, its blade thin as her little finger. Whether it was meant for her or him, Arya could not say. "A girl will weep. A girl will lose her only friend."

...

Arya pressed back against the wall as Rorge began to cut throats. Biter preferred to grab the men behind the head and under the chin and crack their necks with a single twist of his huge pale hands. Only one of the guards managed to get a blade out. Jaqen danced away from his slash, drew his own sword, drove the man back into a corner with a flurry of blows, and killed him with a thrust to the heart. The Lorathi brought the blade to Arya still red with heart's blood and wiped it clean on the front of her shift. "A girl should be bloody too. This is her work."

The key to the cell hung from a hook on the wall above the table. Rorge took it down and opened the door. The first man through was the lord with the mailed fist on his surcoat. "Well done," he said. "I am Robett Glover."

(Clash, Arya IX)

Jaqen's blade is not leaf-shaped; it is like a little finger. (Hmm. I wonder who that could refer to?) Readers know that Jaqen is about to give Arya a full scholarship to Assassin University, so the ambiguous language about the blade being for him or her could foreshadow her upcoming evolution as a ritual killer - she is becoming a Mirri or a Widow of the Waterfront.

Rorge is a throat-cutter (like Mirri) but Biter is a head twister in this scene, like Ser Waymar twisting heads off of sables (Hmm. A kind of weasel, n'est-ce pas?) to make his cloak. I thought I had remembered Jaqen telling Arya that she had blood on her hands, but apparently he does not reference her hands, just her shift: the "shift" reference could be another hint that Arya is the one "hatching" here, turning into a weapon as a full-time professional assassin. 

At some point, Rorge had explained that he found Biter as a kid in King's Landing and trained him to be a pit fighter. So Rorge is the wielder of the weapon and Biter is the weapon. To me, the detail that is most interesting for the purposes of this larger "Royces as gatekeepers" discussion, though, is Rorge opening the door and releasing . . . a glove. 

I have written elsewhere that I think Ser Jorah was a necessary presence in the hatching of Dany's dragons. In fact, the failure of dragon hatching for the many preceding decades might be because the Targaryens failed to have a bear (or a fur-bearing mammal from the north?) close at hand during the ritual. (Note: the brazen beasts who accompany Dany to the dragon pit before she becomes a dragon rider include lions and tigers and bears.) Maybe Ser Jorah is also a necessary presence for Tyrion's hatching during the break-up of the Selaesori Qhoran. 

Ser Jorah gives gloves to the Widow of the Waterfront. Some of the most significant gloves in the books are those worn by Stannis to handle the fake Lightbringer sword in the scene where the Dragonstone masts / icons are burned. The implication is that we know that Stannis is not Azor Ahai reborn because the real Prince who was Promised would be able to handle the magic sword without gloves. But Jon Snow also wears moleskin gloves in the scene where he attempts to desert from the Night's Watch at the end of AGoT. Also, Arya receives fingerless gloves from the sailors on the Titan's Daughter and Theon receives gloves from Ramsay after being maimed. Where Theon's fingers have been cut off, the gloves are stuffed with wool to hide his maiming - perhaps a Mirri Maz Duur allusion because of the Lamb Men connection. In ADwD, there are some interesting moments when Lady Dustin removes her glove, Theon removes a glove and then, later, Lady Dustin insists that Theon remove his gloves so that the assembled northern bannermen can see his maimed hands. 

In the Weasel Soup scene, we have Ser Robett Glover liberated from the dungeon. Not by Vargo Hoat, as secretly planned, but by Arya and her evil henchmen, unaware of the other arrangement. House Glover, of course, is loyal to King Robb Stark. BUT. Roose Bolton secretly double-crosses House Stark by arranging a secret deal with House Lannister. Isn't it interesting that, while at Harrenhal, Roose orders a pair of gloves made from the skins of wolf cubs he has killed. 

I wonder what it means that the Widow of the Waterfront expresses gratitude for the gift of gloves but that she does not touch them? On board the ship, Tyrion and Penny nickname Moqorro's acolytes "The Five Fingers." I wonder whether the gloves are symbolically intended for Moqorro? Two of the "fingers" are blown off the ship when they attempt to hold onto a sail that is billowing in the storm. I think this symbolically turns Moqorro into a Qhorin Halfhand figure. He soon goes on to heal the hand of Victarion Greyjoy, perhaps similar to the eventual healing of Jon Snow's burned hand after he plunges it into a puddle. 

This is probably an important hint about Moqorro's relationship with gloves:

Quote

Like Davos, Moqorro miraculously survives drowning. He is picked up by a Iron Born ship called Grief whose captain is nicknamed The Vole. If there is wordplay here, I wonder whether "Fire" (with a leftover letter G) and "Love" are hidden in the ship and captain's names. Or. Hmm. Maybe they combine to form "fire + glove" in GRRM's game of wordplay clues.

More about "fire gloves," followers of the Red God and Mormonts in this thread:

Anyway, the point here is that these ritual blades in the Mirri Maz Duur scene, the Widow of the Waterfront collection and in the House Royce symbolism may echo Azor Ahai's forging of the Lightbringer blade. He has to plunge that blade into water, a lion and a beloved woman before he has the sword he wants. Of course, fire (heating of the blade) is part of the annealing process between each of the "cooling" efforts undertaken by Azor Ahai - fire and ice working together. 

16 hours ago, Evolett said:

Peaches, Patches and Stones - its all about fertility

Yes! The fertility cycle of the earth seems to be a key to a lot of the symbolism in the books.

16 hours ago, Evolett said:

This is all linked to the underlying fertility magic theme. With his ridiculous antlered helm Patchface is a warped horned-lord figure. He has none of the qualities of a horned lord of the hunt or of vegetation - except for the dying and resurrecting part. His green and red patches probably symbolize "green blood" . . . 

I love this! I think Patches may have more fertility and magical qualities than we initially recognize. He is a fool and his bucket / helmet may make him a symbolic knight. Fool-knights are important archetypes for GRRM. His face tattoo marks him as a slave, and I have a growing suspicion that being a slave is an important life stage for characters who evolve. (Stewards and wards may also count as slaves, which is why that designation was important for Jon Snow before he became a ranger.) 

Although GRRM says only that the green and red pattern on the face of Patchface is "motley," illustrations vary. In the traditional opera costuming, a Harlequin's motley would incorporate diamond-shapes of red, green and blue. So I lean toward an image of diamond-shapes for the face tattoo.

In one of those deep dives into linked symbolism, I found that dragon teeth are linked to diamonds. Diamonds are also linked to window panes. The skulls of dragons (with their teeth and open mouths) may be symbolic gateways - Arya steps through the mouth of a dragon skull and Tyrion meets Shae for a tryst in the lower level of the Red Keep, surrounded by dragon skulls. I think GRRM's hint for us is that the mouths of dragons are magical doors (as are windows with glass). I suspect this means that houses with diamond (and possibly checkered) sigils have special ability to cross barriers or open doors. So keep an eye on Harry the Heir, who has red and white diamonds in his sigil.

To me, the green and red alternating patches on the face of the fool represent the green fertility symbol (the horned lord allusion, as you point out) and the red of blood sacrifices that are offered to weirwood trees as part of the fertility ritual. But the Trident River has red, green and blue forks. I think we will start to see more blue enter the symbolism to complete the Trident and make it whole. So far, my best guess is that blue represents water needed for the fertility cycle. The best evidence of this is in the Sworn Sword, with the long drought causing problems for all of Westeros and the arrival of rain once the hero removes the symbolic barriers preventing the land and people from uniting and moving forward. 

17 hours ago, Evolett said:

The bloodstone is  predominantly composed of green jasper with red inclusions of hematite that resemble drops of blood. I'm quite convinced that the Great Empire of the Dawn heavily employed fertility magic until it came to a tipping point, causing widespread desertification and drought. The bloodstone represents this.

Excellent catch! I am remembering that Aeron accuses Theon of being a lordling of the green lands after his long captivity at Winterfell. This contrasts with the red earth of Dorne, with its large desert area. I wonder whether a unification of north and south (southron?) is necessary to bring balance back to the land?

17 hours ago, Evolett said:

So in terms of the wordplay, peaches and patches form a pair and cause the "stone," the infertile ground where nothing grows. 

I have a slightly different approach to this. I think Renly is a peach eater and (i have recently surmised) Stannis is a grower of peach trees. This explains why his daughter is a stone: the pit (seed) of a peach can be called a stone. When Renly treated with Stannis, he offered to make Shireen his heir - this would have been a good solution to allow time for the peach tree to grow. Patches hangs around with Shireen because he is a fertility god who is nurturing her and encouraging her growth. 

I should re-read the details, but I don't believe we see Stannis direct Melisandre to kill Renly. He feels guilty about it afterward, and remembers the peach that Renly offered. Readers assume that Renly's killer came from Melisandre, and Catelyn tells us that it looked like Stannis, but we never see Melisandre releasing this shadow, as we did at the murder of Ser Cortnay Penrose. If the shadow baby was sent by Melisandre, she may have taken the initiative on her own. Or maybe Stannis helped her to conceive the shadow baby, but did not know how it would be deployed. This may encapsulate the tragedy at the core of ASOIAF: human beings (Azor Ahai) do not know they are destroying the earth (cycle of seasons, fertility) when they unleash dragons and other weapons of mass destruction. Or they do know they are destroying the earth but they (we) put our own selfish ambitions over the greater good of the planet. 

Dunk the lunk, thick as a (stone) castle wall, has to sacrifice himself by drowning and bleeding in order to repair the broken climate in The Sworn Sword. Is he a "seed," dying in order to live again? He is another of GRRM's knight-fools. 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/11/2022 at 8:33 AM, Seams said:

where you are able to take this.

     Not very far unfortunately. It started with looking at rivers as all melted Wall  water and having a unique color. Each area as it’s own biosphere, colony, or realm.

     Next was viewing Westeros as a Maker Breaker board. The simple game of tic-tak-toe. Where the purpose is to make a vertical or horizontal line or break the opponent’s line.

Example: South to North

Castle Salt Shore. 
Castle Stonehelm.  
Castle Felwood.    
Village Rosby.   
Castle Antlers.   
Town Saltpans.  
Castle Strongsong.  
Island Long Sister.  
Castle Oldcastle House Locke.

When attempting to make a line I encountered a strange combination of Salt, Stone, Wood or Sky, Long or Strong, and an Iron or Oak theme. If the Castle or House name didn’t fit usually the House sigil, like Mallister an eagle for sky, would sort of fit??  
 

     Following this came the thought of threads being woven across Westeros. Each color (of White-roygbiv-Black. Paired in 3, 3, and 3=9?) or family tree being woven by 1 of three Hands. Flint, Gardener, Allyrion?  ( Whoops forgot Harlaw Kind of a dead hand 10 finger Grim Reaper thing going on )
 

Anyway, I occasionally would come across possible anagrams or direct names related to weaving such as Heddle, Weft, and Archon=Anchor or Old Anchor.  ( I need to revisit that Sansa chapter when Pyter is transporting Sansa around the Fingers.) The color of thread may be denoted by a person’s hair color. I found something good , possibly, for brindled hair weaving twice or twist I can’t recall what the sentence was tho. 

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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1 hour ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

When attempting to make a line I encountered a strange combination of Salt, Stone, Wood or Sky, Long or Strong, and an Iron or Oak theme. If the Castle or House name didn’t fit usually the House sigil, like Mallister an eagle for sky, would sort of fit??  

Fascinating. I bet this could be an interesting thread, all on its own. At one point, there was a theory (now debunked, I believed) that certain sites in Europe were linked by "ley lines." As I recall, all of the mountains connected to St. Michael were thought to be part of the pattern. There were probably other sites, too. It seems like a very GRRM thing to take a debunked theory like that and to make it "real" for Westeros. Some kind of pattern of lines linking castles or other landmarks seems like something he would do. If not warp and weft, maybe a seven-pointed star?

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Posted (edited)
On 6/13/2022 at 5:32 PM, Seams said:

ley lines

I’ll have to try the seven star. It was one of your post’s that made me see ringlets of hair. That part at Sanaa’s wedding? Had bugged me and still does. Stupid Sansa! :) But it got me thinking of spirals, whorls and ringlets. Maybe two for brindle? I need to find something more solid.

It’s just like: The Friend or The Friends

The Friend = Free hint, D
The Friend+D= Find the red. 
Find The Red+The Friend= Reed in fifth then ridden. (rid Ned, rid Den?)

Or could it be.    
The Friend+Free Hint D= Freed Ned in the Frith?

…but The Friend= Need Frith.   
So…The Friend+Firth?
Could it be something like on the fifth multiple of The Friend add R example: Fifth “The Friend” Need R? 

So add Frith to The Friend, or add Frith to, The Friend+Find The Red+ Freed Ned in the Frith?  
Or do we stop when we get to Frith? 

Because it can keep going! Are Roman numerals used? Dear god is it math!   It can go on and on leading to a muddled mind of madness!

I like posting stuff at the end of threads. No one reads this far in. Makes me feel like I still am a good friend to His work. Plus no snarks and grumpkins to flame in

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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Posted (edited)

Made me think pie as math

Hot Three Point One Four=

-Tother rune on  Hot pie   
- The Tor Rune On Hot Pie   
-True North One Hot Pie

Needs polishing and more numbers? Or The Hot Three point one four?

3.1415926535 8979323846 

 

Hot Pie the baker’s orphan?

Hot Pie The Baker A Baker’s Orphan?

Does baking bread make him a Lord? Fire unleavened bread?? It’d be hilarious if he’s the only little orphaned boy prince kinda tropes.  Not a warrior but a smith of bread. Who doesn’t like pie? Well Frays I guess.

 

Tom: “Will you give us your names like honest men?”

Hot Pie: “I'm Hot Pie.”

 

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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This topic is elusive as it is interesting. Since it seems the shield is fan art, I doubt we'll make any progress trying to decipher the runic symbols depicted but perhaps we can come close enough by combining some of the ideas and observations presented in this thread with the subject of runes in our own past history. First a collection of observations that seem important:

- their seat is named Runestone

- the Royces had runes on bronze armor, said to be protective in nature

- their shield has inscribed runes and black iron studs 

- the Royces settled in the Vale at some point in time. The Vale is in the East, the direction of sunrise

- Robar Royce was High King of the Vale, the Fingers and the Mountains of the Moon, partly stoney environments

- their words are "we remember"

- Nestor Royce is in charge of the Gates of the Moon. 

- Ser Waymar Royce, son of Bronze Yohn, brother of the NW, killed and wighted by an Other. 

- Feel free to add to the list :)

A quick look at runestones in history from Wikipedia:

Quote

A runestone is typically a raised stone with a runic inscription, but the term can also be applied to inscriptions on boulders and on bedrock. The tradition began in the 4th century and lasted into the 12th century, but most of the runestones date from the late Viking Age. Most runestones are located in Scandinavia, but there are also scattered runestones in locations that were visited by Norsemen during the Viking Age. Runestones are often memorials to dead men. Runestones were usually brightly coloured when erected, though this is no longer evident as the colour has worn off. The vast majority of runestones are found in Sweden.

The thought that comes to mind, also earlier in this thread, is the tomb of Tristifer the IV whose sepulchur is inscribed with runes:

On 6/8/2022 at 11:45 AM, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away.

We have something of a match here - the runes on the King's warhammer are a record of the weapon's name and history, according to Catelyn. The history of the weapon is of course bound up with the history of its owner, thus this stone sepulchur is similar to a historic runestone that was always inscribed with the name of its owner and included some information on his life, manner or place of death. The whole runestone is a memorial to the dead - in remembrance of the dead.... the Royce's words are "we remember" and their seat is Runestone.

The runestone, though a memorial, is not to be confused with a tombstone however. Runestones were placed along roads or at locations where many passed by so that all could partake of the memorial. Runestones were usually erected for fallen warriors and often commissioned by relatives even when the warrior died abroad, far from home. Besides the parallel between memorial runestones and the stone Kings in the crypts of Winterfell, we also have statues of dead Kings of Winter who never made it home to be buried in the crypts. 

This suggests that the seat of the Royces, named Runestone, is a memorial to fallen warriors of the past. The question is, is it a tomb as well as a memorial? Our working example is Tristifer's sepulchur, and that's a tomb. Such a large memorial suggests a great many of their warriors died in a battle or battles of great significance. Bronze is a metal that is "dark and strong to fight the cold." I think it's reasonable to think of  Runestone  as a memorial to those who fell in the battle against the Others during the Long Night.

On a side note and probably relevant to the Royce runes, histories carved into stone as in the case of the runestone are not limited to stone alone in the narrative. 

Quote

Though Jhala is the largest of the Summer Isles, Walano is the most populous. There can be found Last Lament, with its great harbor, sleepy Lotus Point, and sun-dappled Tall Trees Town, where priestesses in feathered robes carve songs and stories into the trunks of the enormous tower trees that shade the town. On these Talking Trees can be read the whole history of the Summer Islanders, together with the commandments of their many gods and the laws by which they live their lives. tWoIaF

 

Memories and histories are carved into the trunks of trees on Walano and most intriguingly, the trees are near to a town named "Last Lament." The lost Royce ancestral sword happens to be named "Lamentation." 

Also, as far as recording memories go, we now have the physical recording (carving) of memories on stone in the form of runes, on trees and on parchment (regular writing). Plus the recording of memories the supernatural way, by way of the weirwood. Memories are also recorded orally, in song. 

However, there is perhaps one more way of recording memories. I came across this quote by chance, while reading up for a different line of investigation:

Quote

Ser Alliser only said, “You would like me to refuse. Then you could hack off my head, same as you did for Slynt. I’ll not give you that pleasure, bastard. You’d best pray that it’s a wildling blade that kills me, though. The ones the Others kill don’t stay dead … and they remember. I’m coming back, Lord Snow.”

Ser Waymar Royce was killed by an Other and did not stay dead. And as Ser Alliser reminds us here - the dead remember. Ser Waymar, now a wight, thus lives up to his House's words even in death. He remembers. But what does he remember? Or could it be that wights can be added to the list of those who record memories? Memories going back as far as the Long Night? 

Let's have a look at the shield again. Runes and black iron studs adorn it. Black iron is interesting as mentioned above:

On 6/8/2022 at 11:45 AM, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

And when battle was joined upon the shores, mighty kings and famous warriors fell before the reavers like wheat before a scythe, in such numbers that the men of the green lands told each other that the ironborn were demons risen from some watery hell, protected by fell sorceries and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew.

These black weapons possessed by the Ironborn were probably crafted from Iron. We do not know when black iron studs were incorporated into the shields of House Royce. If the Andals brought the art of crafting iron, then iron couldn't have been a thing at the time of the Long Night but perhaps it's the symbolism of black iron that is significant so that we are meant to connect that material to the meaning of the runes. Weapons made of this metal appear to drink the souls of the slain. What does that tell us about black iron studs on a shield? A shield is meant for defence and does not normally penetrate the body in the way that a sword does. On the other hand, if a shield is used as a bashing agent it will break skin and draw blood so we can imagine black iron studs coming into contact with blood at which point they might "drink the souls" of the slain.

If black iron serves as a clue to the runes, then the runes on the Royce's armor might represent spells designed to drink or bind the souls of the dead. But we associate soul drinking or binding with devillish sorcery such as that employed by Melisandre who employs rubies and an iron shackle to glamour Mance Ryder and bind his soul to her. Further, the Others appear to bind the souls of the dead, preventing them from experiencing a true death. The soul animates the body and is thought to leave it at death. Binding the soul to the body after death leads to undeath. 

It's game over for Ser Waymar when the Other draws his blood. Next, the other white shadows, the "watchers" converge on him, stabbing him over and over again with their icy swords. Were the Others consecrating or empowering their swords with Waymar's blood? Swallowing his soul, Nissa Nissa style, so to speak? 

As @Seams has noted, the Royces are linked to stone. Runestone, Mountains of the Moon, the Nestor/stoner anagram, Gates of the stone Moon etc. In terms of the infertility theme, stone does not promote growth. A weirwood will not grow at the Eyrie because of the stoney soil. Are the Royces thus linked to the infertility theme even though they inhabit the fertile Vale? And to take this thought further, could it be they sided with the Others during the Long Night, as suggested by the soul-drinking/binding imagery? This is a new thought for me, borne of checking out the rune mystery. Tristifer the IV, Hammer of Justice, is tied to this rune investigation. There is this as well ..

On 6/9/2022 at 9:50 PM, Seams said:

If Robar has rune mojo, what about Ser Waymar? In the other current Royce thread, I was saying that Ser Waymar was turned into a tree (sentinel pine - it's a long story).

and

On 6/8/2022 at 5:22 PM, Seams said:

This is worth exploring, I think. In a thread a several years ago, @Leo of House Cartel put together some good points comparing King Tristifer to Robb Stark. My own thought was that Tristifer resembled King Robert Baratheon in some key ways, which still fits with the Robb Stark comparison, imho, because Robb = Robert as part of the same, sound-alike name group. 

Waymar turning into a sentinel tree is like becoming a "watcher," a term applied to the Others. King Robert, a Garth horned-lord figure signifying life has his dark aspect in Stannis - Sandor calls Robert "King of the Worms," signifying Robert's chthonic aspect. Renly is the resurrecting aspect of the horned lord. Robb, a King of Winter and Night's King figure (in my opinion) also personifies this dark aspect. His mother certainly does on his behalf. There's also Catelyn suggesting Robb choose a Royce as his heir. Gregor Clegane turning into Robert Strong is another example of this life/death/undeath trio. 

Just-ice may be linked to the coming of the Others who are creatures of ice, in simple terms to allow winter to have its due after long years of summer. We tend to think of the Others as destroyers of humanity and assume all mortal men would fight against them, but perhaps there were people who fought with the Others because they were convinced the Others had a just cause worth fighting for. And these might have included the Royces. 

 

Addition: 

If black iron serves as a clue to the runes, then the runes on the Royce's armor might represent spells designed to drink or bind the souls of the dead. And this would explain the ineffectual bronze Royce armor, the runes not being protective, but rather, soul-binding in nature. 

Edited by Evolett
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19 minutes ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Tor= gate? I thought Tor was mound or mountain.

"Tor" is the German word for "gate." "Mund" means mouth and can also refer to an opening, like the mouth of a cave for example. Tormund for example = gate mouth or simply an opening or a gate. 

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