UK Politics - Caesar: Most senators didn’t stab me, so all good!

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Maltaran said:

What about a rape victim who is going to be traumatised because the charity says that she is not allowed support because of the other rape victim’s feelings about trans women? This is why I said there are no good answers - whichever way you go, there will be one woman who is not able to get the support they need.

There is a good answer. Mixed sessions and single sex sessions. 

[Conflicting Thought]

3 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

What about a rape victim who is going to be traumatised because the charity says that she is not allowed support because of the other rape victim’s feelings about trans women? This is why I said there are no good answers - whichever way you go, there will be one woman who is not able to get the support they need.

Didnt they tell her that this charity is imclusive of trans women? If they did, then there is an answer, just attend the thing with trans women or go somewhere else

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

in front of biological males

I will continue to point out no one uses the phrase “biological males” in any other context but beating up trans women.

Its a cowardly way to just call them men.

 

14 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

maybe a rape charity should pay attention to that and offer single sex sessions rather than refusing on the basis of ideolog

If the charity  doesn’t , maybe transphobes who have see trans women as deceitful men, could simply not take part in any of the trans inclusive group sessions.

Threatening the charity with a law-suit an appropriate response.

They may not to waste the time, energy and money setting up sessions catered to every individual’s pet bigotry.That’s their perogative 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

A charity offers a certain service, they’re upfront about it and someone then asked for something they don’t offer. They didn’t get it and are now suing.

This is why calling people a Karen became a thing.

[mormont]

Again, and I said this pages ago, it's vanishingly unlikely that a rape charity has the resources - money, time, qualified staff, administration - to run segregated sessions. Even if that were a thing that it's reasonable to ask for, which I am not sure it is. Group sessions are always going to involve the possibility that you may find another user's presence uncomfortable for many, many reasons.

[Heartofice]

Just now, mormont said:

Again, and I said this pages ago, it's vanishingly unlikely that a rape charity has the resources - money, time, qualified staff, administration - to run segregated sessions. Even if that were a thing that it's reasonable to ask for, which I am not sure it is. Group sessions are always going to involve the possibility that you may find another user's presence uncomfortable for many, many reasons.

This simply isn’t true. They run a variety of services, for people of different genders and ages. The idea they couldn’t run one extra session is simply nonsense. It doesn’t take a lot to understand that they won’t do it because ideology is core to their running of their services, maybe even ahead of the need to prevent rape victims being traumatised. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The idea they couldn’t run one extra session is simply nonsense.

They could have run a session barring anyone but white straight cis women from attending.

They didn’t. They shouldn’t be bludgeoned with a law suit over it,

7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It doesn’t take a lot to understand that they won’t do it because ideology

They do think trans women are women, not just Biographical Sails.

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

maybe even ahead of the need to prevent rape victims being traumatised. 

They are up front about there women sessions always being trans inclusive dude.

Because they want trans women to know in their eyes trans women are ultimately women and shouldn’t be treated differently from them.

You’re very dismissive of the harm your type of exclusion your demanding be legally enforced.

 

[A wilding]

12 minutes ago, mormont said:

Again, and I said this pages ago, it's vanishingly unlikely that a rape charity has the resources - money, time, qualified staff, administration - to run segregated sessions. Even if that were a thing that it's reasonable to ask for, which I am not sure it is. Group sessions are always going to involve the possibility that you may find another user's presence uncomfortable for many, many reasons.

So true.

I was once tangentially involved in a comparable situation. The law suit was in the end withdrawn. However the mere possibility of it, plus the thought of some future lawsuit that the charity could not possibly afford to defend and that might even expose individual volunteers to personal liability, was enough to make the charity fold. They did look into getting insurance, but it was ruinously expensive and would have also required an impractical level of box ticking nonsense.

Result: loss of a valuable service to a whole load of people, including the person who brought the lawsuit (induced into it, rumour had it, by an officious relative).

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, A wilding said:

So true.

I was once tangentially involved in a comparable situation. The law suit was in the end withdrawn. However the mere possibility of it, plus the thought of some future lawsuit that the charity could not possibly afford to defend and that might even expose individual volunteers to personal liability, was enough to make the charity fold. They did look into getting insurance, but it was ruinously expensive and would have also required an impractical level of box ticking nonsense.

Result: loss of a valuable service to a whole load of people, including the person who brought the lawsuit (induced into it, rumour had it, by an officious relative).

 

But in the end was a trans woman made to feel ostracized?

[mormont]

37 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

This simply isn’t true. They run a variety of services, for people of different genders and ages.

That does not mean that they had the resources to run segregated sessions as well. In fact, it makes it more likely that they were already overstretched.

I'm not sure if you've ever had to refer someone to one of these charities, or had a friend or relative go. I have. I know what the waiting list was like, how hard it was to get qualified counsellors, find safe meeting spaces, and so on.

37 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It doesn’t take a lot to understand that they won’t do it because ideology is core to their running of their services, maybe even ahead of the need to prevent rape victims being traumatised. 

This is, of course, just a silly thing to say. No rape charity puts any personal beliefs ahead of helping their clients.

[Heartofice]

12 minutes ago, mormont said:

This is, of course, just a silly thing to say. No rape charity puts any personal beliefs ahead of helping their clients.

It might sound silly, but it’s what is happening.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It might sound silly, but it’s what is happening.

Actually just the opposite seems to be happening. This individual went to a group therapy session knowing they allow trans women to attend and then complained that trans women can attend. And then she sued them over this. If anyone is trying to force their ideology on to another it's the woman who is suing. 

[Heartofice]

26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Actually just the opposite seems to be happening. This individual went to a group therapy session knowing they allow trans women to attend and then complained that trans women can attend. And then she sued them over this. If anyone is trying to force their ideology on to another it's the woman who is suing. 

That’s not really the opposite at all is it. 
 

The Rape crisis centre is basically saying that if you feel traumatised reliving your assault in front of a biological man, then.. well then you’d better go somewhere else.. except this is the only rape crisis centre in Sussex. Sorry but our ideology trumps your trauma, hope you can afford the bus fare! 

[Conflicting Thought]

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

That’s not really the opposite at all is it. 
 

The Rape crisis centre is basically saying that if you feel traumatised reliving your assault in front of a biological man, then.. well then you’d better go somewhere else.. except this is the only rape crisis centre in Sussex. Sorry but our ideology trumps your trauma, hope you can afford the bus fare! 

wtf are you talking about... she knew it was inclusive of trans women, cuz you know, they ARE women. 

and you know, there are trans people reading this forum and your thinly veiled transphobia and calling her a biological man is disgusting and shows you dont know wtf your talking about.

like isnt it hate speech to say a trans woman is a biological man? you should edit your posts.

[Ran]

Reading the article, given that she says she's not transphobic, wouldn't it be more fairer to say that in the specific context of these private group sessions she is androphobic? Fearing males and men, due to her trauma. There's a Venn diagram where this would of course overlap with transwomen (and transmen?), but this doesn't mean they are the same thing. 

I don't believe she should win this case, by the by, because I don't think the charity should be forced to introduce sessions that it does not want to. The proper approach is to find services at another charity that can accomadate her and others who share the same fears, or to encourage the creation of such charities. That said, I don't know the merits of her suit in terms of the law. Obviously, a solicitor (or is it a barrister?) I guess has taken it up and thinks there's something to it, but lawyers can think all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons.

 

[DaveSumm]

15 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

 isnt it hate speech to say a trans woman is a biological man? you should edit your posts.

Is it really? I’m genuinely curious. For what it’s worth, HoI used the term when describing someone who made the individual uncomfortable; the relevant reason being that she was born male. Is there a catch all term that could be used to describe what an androphobe is afraid of? Surely we can agree there has to be a word for people born male? 

[Poobah]

19 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

like isnt it hate speech to say a trans woman is a biological man? you should edit your posts.

Yeah, and sorry for the ping @Ran but since you're right here and all is this acceptable? I know HoI generally skips gleefully along the line of acceptable while pushing his right wing crap but surely he's way over rule 9 on this one with his flagrant transphobe bullshit?

[Ran]

I admit, I'm not aware of it being hate speech since gender and sex are different things, as I understand it. One can be a woman and also biologically male, and one can be a man and biologically female. And in the context of this specific case, the issue for the woman is allegedly that she is concerned about sharing her trauma caused by a person who was AMAB in front of other people who are (were?) AMAB.

That said, the point has been made sufficiently, it's understood in the case by everyone, and as people find it rude for a term that is a bit clinical and possibly even a bit dehumanizing when seen in a certain light, @Heartofice it would be civil of you if you stopped using the "biological male" term and use whatever is polite.

[Heartofice]

Sure I’ll stop using the term, though I will say it was used specifically in this context because it was the element that was at the heart of what was traumatising factor for the women involved. If there is a better term I am open to hearing it. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

That’s not really the opposite at all is it. 
 

The Rape crisis centre is basically saying that if you feel traumatised reliving your assault in front of a biological man, then.. well then you’d better go somewhere else.. except this is the only rape crisis centre in Sussex. Sorry but our ideology trumps your trauma, hope you can afford the bus fare! 

So presumably the trans woman would face the same lack of access, if not a greater one assuming all rape crisis centers aren’t open to trans women.

Like this entire time you’ve basically just been arguing that the needs and concerns of cis women supersede those of trans women while not considering suicide rates for trans women are much higher than for cis women.