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DC Cinematic Universe: Re-Reboot in Progress


Myrddin

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6 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Don't get me wrong, these films will continue to get made and they will be massively profitable for years to come. But the cracks are starting to show. I wonder if DC's "relaunch" is coming at exactly the wrong time. 

All you've said, but this quoted in particular.  No way they won't be cautious. This division is in a bad, bad way.

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1 hour ago, JGP said:

All you've said, but this quoted in particular.  No way they won't be cautious. This division is in a bad, bad way.

Some more points:

This goes back even further:

BoP was almost certainly effected by Covid. But when it opened, the 'rona wasn't much of a concern domestically and it opened really soft. I'm speculating a bit but It's unlikely that the lockdowns, when they eventually came, took much more than 10-20% off the B.O. Still barely break even. This for a film that got decent critical praise with an A list actress and a popular character.  

Shazam! basically did Black Adam Money. It was profitable by virtue of a low production budget and low participations and residuals (according to Deadline) but no question it underperformed. I can't imagine coming in $150 million below Ant-Man was what these guys were targeting. 

I have to wonder how TSS and WW84 would have done in a world where no one ever heard of Covid. TSS never seemed to generate much sustained buzz and WW84... happened. 

ETA: I won't comment on conflicting reports of Batgirl screenings because of how unreliable that stuff is, but I did see the leaked "trailer" and I wonder if the decision to bin it wasn't the correct one.  I kind of think it was.

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I’m genuinely curious as to whether the theatre release landscape right now means that you either need to be a serious ‘tent pole’ event movie that everyone wants to see, or you are a tiny low budget movie that can somehow find an audience. Otherwise you don’t make back your budget. 
 

I don’t think DC are able to create the sort of buzz to make all their movies fit into the first category, not in the way that Marvel are somehow sort of managing too, although I am not optimistic about that either 

 

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34 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I’m genuinely curious as to whether the theatre release landscape right now means that you either need to be a serious ‘tent pole’ event movie that everyone wants to see, or you are a tiny low budget movie that can somehow find an audience. Otherwise you don’t make back your budget. 

I think there's just less certainty. If that breeds more variety then great. Mea Culpa: I predicted that the Rock's star power would be enough to propel Black Adam to considerable success. 'Shows what I know. 

38 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I don’t think DC are able to create the sort of buzz to make all their movies fit into the first category, not in the way that Marvel are somehow sort of managing too, although I am not optimistic about that either 

One can debate the importance of it but franchise momentum is real. The MCU still has it. 

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5 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Shazam! basically did Black Adam Money. It was profitable by virtue of a low production budget and low participations and residuals (according to Deadline) but no question it underperformed. I can't imagine coming in $150 million below Ant-Man was what these guys were targeting. 

 

 

I don't know what they were targeting but a Shazam sequel got green-lit and started production immediately. They seemed fine with it.

 

They did BoP absolutely dirty with the marketing. So many people seemed to not know what it was about

 

But a lot of the problem can be put down to the fact that you only get to make so many shit movies before audiences stop trusting you. That's what fucked BoP, it's a lot of what hurt the Suicide Squad sequel (although most of the damage there was done by WB's HBO Max decision, and the numbers there are presumably why Gunn is in charge of the whole show now), and it's why Batman - although not near breaking the billion dollar mark- did fine. In that respect, if DC can make clear this is a new start they can probably turn it some way around. 

 

Of course, the superhero bubble has to pop eventually, but it's hard to say if the current slowdown is people losing interest in superheroes, or losing interest in the MCU. If it's the latter, DC might be doing this at exactly the right time, if they can start a new set of stories at a time when people are getting bored of having to keep a corkboard with string on to keep up with what Marvel are doing. 
In that respect, just ditching everyone involved in the old movies might be the sensible approach, though they can probably keep some of them if they're clear enough on the new direction otherwise. 

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Now it's being reported that Jenkins is off WW3. This is Umberto Gonzales and "inside sources" so take it for what it's worth.

https://www.thewrap.com/wonder-woman-3-patty-jenkins-what-really-happened/

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

 

I don't know what they were targeting but a Shazam sequel got green-lit and started production immediately. They seemed fine with it.

I'm sure it passed some minimum threshold, especially considering the positivity of the critical consensus; they were convinced they had good foundation to build on. Maybe it was the marketing campaign, the release date, CBM saturation or proximity to other big tentpole releases; but, "lowest grossing DC film since Green Lantern" probably had them scratching their heads. Plus it's not like they had a lot of irons in the fire at the time. Interesting point about tentpole dates: Shazam 2 was originally supposed to open opposite Avatar 2! Then they pushed it out a week. Later they pushed it to mid-March. 4 weeks after Ant-Man and 6 weeks before GotG vol 3. Also 3 weeks after Cocaine Bear. They might be OK.  

Keep in mind, one report claimed WB's standard for success for Superman Returns was $500 million, which is roughly what X-Men films were doing at the time. If the film could hit that benchmark they'd be convinced they had what they needed to move forward. However, at $500 million, Superman Returns would have lost money.  

DC announcing projects have been "greenlit" is pretty meaningless. and Shazam 2 didn't start shooting until 2021 if memory serves. Covid likely impacted that but it's pretty clear they didn't have a sequel mapped out beforehand. 

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I have a question, and please, no flames, this is something I legitimately do NOT understand: 

With Marvel and its movies, while there was a rough idea of what maybe they would have *liked* to have done, under ideal circumstances, much of what we got was a result of each project (ie each movie/show) one at a time working and being able to successfully plant seeds. But it only worked because each individual project worked. So the "map", if you will, was really more of an optimistic outline, from what I can tell. 

So, using that as a basis for comparison to Gunn's retooled DC movies, I have this question in mind: 

How can a roadmap even be made and a plan even be set if you don't know if what you make will even work? Why bother trying to structure or outline a set of media (eg movies and shows) if you don't yet even KNOW if they will work? Why not instead, like MCU and the Arrowverse, set an idea of what story (or stories) you'd like to tell, across however many movies and the like, and then, as you progress, see where you get? 

This is what has my brain in a tizzy of late. 

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In my opinion they should keep the cast that they had, its fine.

Cavill is a great Superman, and Affleck was good as Batman too. Keep Gadot, Momoa, the rest hasnt made any impact so you could replace if you want.

I would also have liked it if they had just continued making movies post -Justice League, with the Darkseid storyline. What they have done since is just nothing, one disappointment after another.

Everything now feels very inconsequential. I did not like the Matt Reeves Batman film one bit, a very boring affair.

A Kingdom come movie would be a superb idea, so go on and do that, but keep Cavill for the role and build around that.

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Part of thr problem, certainly, is that the days when your choice was either watch a film in the cinema, or wait a year until it came out on VHS, another year until it appeared on Sky Movies, and maybe a couple of years before it appeared on ‘council’ telly, are long gone (UK perspective).

Cinemas are too expensive. Covid is a risk. And you can rent the film from Amazon Prime while it’s still in the cinema, and watch it on a 4K TV in thr comfort of your own home.

A filn really needs a big buzz to get people to go see it.

Interestingly, while the DCEU films are struggling, Joker did phenomenally well (cost between 50-70 mill and made a billion). The Batman did pretty well.

 

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I think DC just needs to find it's voice a bit. 

Everything it's done so far feels like a reaction to what Marvel have been doing. Marvel have the bright and breezy comic book stuff, so we are going to do the grim dark, gritty adult thing. On top of that just kind of haphazardly releasing movies that don't feel all that unified or part of a collective vision.

Basically be more careful with your brand. 

I think they have made a real mix of good and bad decisions. I like that they made Joker and the 'good' Suicide Squad movie, and the new Batman movie was ok, but they have also made quite a few stinkers. It doesn't feel like there is a strategy or a goal for what the DC should be and what sets it apart. Or if there was one, the Synderverse, it was a really dumb strategy. 

They don't need to plan out every movie for the next 5 years, Feige style, they just need to establish why people would go see a DC movie, what sets it apart from Marvel. I'm not sure I know the answer to that, but I really hope the answer isn't 'More grit'

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10 hours ago, Heartofice said:

They don't need to plan out every movie for the next 5 years, Feige style, they just need to establish why people would go see a DC movie, what sets it apart from Marvel. I'm not sure I know the answer to that, but I really hope the answer isn't 'More grit'

I'm a comic book neophyte.  I read a few issues back in the 90's.  I got most of my info from Spiderman, Batman, and XMen animated series.  So take my knowledge for what it is worth.

The answer should never be "more grit" for grit's sake.  That was their problem from the get go the first time around.  Superman probably didn't need to be gritty... Batman probably should be.  One tone for every movie is a problem.  Fans quickly tire of that. 

Ironman didn't feel like Captain America which didn't feel like Hulk and none of them felt like Thor.  That worked.  Eventually the MCU movies all started kinda feeling the same and that's when their quality dropped off (for me).

So "reboot" with a Cavill lead Superman who saves the day and never loses hope.  Follow up with either a Pattinson or Afleck Batman that feels much more hopeless.  The conflict of themes is where your success lies.

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5 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I'm a comic book neophyte.  I read a few issues back in the 90's.  I got most of my info from Spiderman, Batman, and XMen animated series.  So take my knowledge for what it is worth.

A significant portion of my formative years we're spent sitting at comic racks for hours. When older, I collected, and half the time yea/nay decisions were based on my interest in the art within as much as or more than the story. Meaning, I maybe know a bit about some things lol

My statement of worth done, funny story time.

It was in a small town pawnshop that I discovered Alien Legion, and until that point hadn't seen anything like Frank Cirocco's style. I dropped right there. There were two issues if memory serves. I wanna say like, 3rd and 4th? Young me was blown away. Amazeballs. Had to have them all. So over the next few years whenever visiting relatives or whatever in towns or cities that actually had comic stores, I managed to collect the rest and backfill [V1 hadn't ended yet] except no love on the 1st issue.

A couple years maybe I tried to get my hands on that elusive first? So my younger brother comes home from a trip once, and guess what he got his hands on. Yup. I was beyond. The goal achieved. Nothing ever is, but it still should be said it wasn't like now, back then.  

With a gorgeous cover and interiors by Frank.

A moment years in the making. And I mean, I hadn't even read it. Looked at it. Gotten a chance to experience the cold open. Flip that smooth Baxter paper. 

And hey, little bro looking out! It meant a lot.   

But that cold eyed fuck, over the next hour, proceeded to fleece me in trade out of the 5 issue first solo appearance Punisher mini series by Grant and Zeck.

For Alien Legion #1.

The my super villain origin story, if you will.   

 

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34 minutes ago, Rhom said:

The answer should never be "more grit" for grit's sake.  That was their problem from the get go the first time around.  Superman probably didn't need to be gritty... Batman probably should be.  One tone for every movie is a problem.  Fans quickly tire of that. 

Ironman didn't feel like Captain America which didn't feel like Hulk and none of them felt like Thor.  That worked.  Eventually the MCU movies all started kinda feeling the same and that's when their quality dropped off (for me).

So "reboot" with a Cavill lead Superman who saves the day and never loses hope.  Follow up with either a Pattinson or Afleck Batman that feels much more hopeless.  The conflict of themes is where your success lies.

One issue I have with Batfleck, is he's a horrible Bruce Wayne.

Bruce Ben has zero touch. 

I don't know where I'm at with Cavill.

soft relaunch, Lex should be important but not the main villain [PLEASE dump Eisenberg] and it shouldn't be the Kryptonian trifecta. Seeing a take where Clark spends some time establishing himself as a reporter at the Planet before Superman's first appearance would be pretty cool. Semi-serious takes on Lois and Jimi, Perry, Cat. Parasite would be a great first antagonist, and I vaguely recall reading a half ass pitch by someone [not here] that made case for that, and how Denzel Washington as Normal Joe would bring the kind of primal rage of loss the Parasite would need, and if that shit didn't blow me the fuck away...

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, JGP said:

 

It was in a small town pawnshop that I discovered Alien Legion, and until that point hadn't seen anything like Frank Cirocco's style.

Cirocco and Alien Legion is a deeeep cut!

You know he did a limited series called Becoming Frankenstein a couple of years ago? Came in to replace another artist who dropped out before it started. Gerhard was the colorist on it, and he shared a preview. Looked good.

(Also, to cross-over with the forum's main subject: David Benioff took several cracks at writing an Alien Legion screenplay!)

On the subject of DC, Kingdom Come seems kind of like the focus for Gunn and his other co-head. I think it gives them some flexibility about how to proceed with actually building to that world... will they just drop straight into Kingdom Come and then play off from there? That'd be wild, but not unprecedented (Mark Waid's The Kingdom was a follow-up to the comic).

 

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52 minutes ago, Ran said:

Cirocco and Alien Legion is a deeeep cut!

You know he did a limited series called Becoming Frankenstein a couple of years ago? Came in to replace another artist who dropped out before it started. Gerhard was the colorist on it, and he shared a preview. Looked good.

I did not know this. Thank you.

 

52 minutes ago, Ran said:

(Also, to cross-over with the forum's main subject: David Benioff took several cracks at writing an Alien Legion screenplay!)

I knew that it was optioned and stuck or forgotten on a pile somewhere.

Did NOT know this and if that wasn't a bullet dodge lol 

I'm not sure where to start in V1 were I in charge of treatment. Probably the multi issue arc where a bunch of Nomad crash landed on an alien planet. The survivors of the Legion [so great lol] vs the survivors of the Harkilon drones that also crashed. A kind of, all in the same circumstances with a borderline horror survival vibe, against an indigenous parasite/symbiotic thrall thing going on in the background at first, the conflicts of the survivors, deaths of others, and a kind of first look into the societal make up of the enemy.  

It was also in that arc that Ciricco passed the torch on as artist.

If that was say, a series or a couple movies?

Whew, man. The bomb.

It would not pass the Bechdel test though. That'd have to be corrected probably. Cool thing about that story is if anything like or unlike it ever happens, the creators own it. 

 

edit: i should edit before posting sometimes  

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On 12/9/2022 at 2:09 PM, Ran said:

 

On the subject of DC, Kingdom Come seems kind of like the focus for Gunn and his other co-head. I think it gives them some flexibility about how to proceed with actually building to that world... will they just drop straight into Kingdom Come and then play off from there? That'd be wild, but not unprecedented.

 

It came up before inthread. I'm kind of torn on it.

I like the discussion Kingdom Come is having, old vs new, etc. Not sure how you flip that medium wise without the benefit of grounding the poles in some more films first.

I'd prefer Cosmic Odyssey. All the heavies, the New Gods, Darkseid et Apokolips, the antilife equation... BUG.

Gunn and Safran could dive into that one with little set up required.     

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