DC Cinematic Universe: Re-Reboot in Progress

[JGP]

Watched Black Adam last night. 

Pretty bad in general, Dwayne is such a terrible actor. But... but. 

 

The post credit scene was dope. Great to see cowlicked Superman back in the true blue. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

9 hours ago, JGP said:

Watched Black Adam last night. 

Pretty bad in general, Dwayne is such a terrible actor.

Your face. I have it on good authority that it's the best DC film since The Dark Knight.

I'll probably check it out once it hits my streaming platform, which should be in about a month or so.

In other news, Green Lantern Corps. perpetual development: continues. 

Marc Guggenheim and Seth Grahame-Smith are both out. The series is being re-tooled to focus in Jon Stewart, which suggests Finn Wittrock and Jeremy Irvine are also out. I've read some blurbs to that effect but I don't know if they've officially been released. Those casting announcements happened over a year ago if memory serves. 

https://screenrant.com/green-lantern-hbo-max-overhaul-writer-response/

[Calibandar]

On 11/24/2022 at 6:57 PM, JGP said:

Watched Black Adam last night. 

Pretty bad in general, Dwayne is such a terrible actor. But... but. 

 

The post credit scene was dope. Great to see cowlicked Superman back in the true blue. 

Agreed on all points. Saw the film, was very disappointed in it, a few good fight scenes was really the only thing it had going for it. Post credits scene was cool and reminds me that what you just really want to see is a new Cavill Superman film ( but I knew that already).

[Martell Spy]

What James Gunn's 'Kingdom Come' Teaser Could Mean for the DCEU
The DC director is “making plans.”

https://collider.com/james-gunn-kingdom-come-dc-comics/

Quote

 

The image that Gunn dropped on his various social media pages is of the now iconic 20th anniversary cover of Kingdom Come. Done by the legendary comic book artist Alex Ross, the image has Superman standing around a table with his reformed Justice League. A League which includes Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Atom Smasher, Red Robin, Red Arrow, Red Tornado, Donna Troy, and Alan Scott’s Green Lantern. Gunn accompanied the image with the simple caption “Making plans.” Shazam himself Zachary Levi even responded to Gunn’s post on Instagram excitedly saying, “F***. Yes.” with a fire emoji for good measure.

If Kingdom Come is indeed a part of Gunn's “plans” this could be huge for the DCU. The original 1996 miniseries written by Mark Waid with the art done by Ross is one of the best comic book storylines ever written. It was an epic Elseworlds story that saw an older Superman come out of retirement to reform the JLA after the newer generation of heroes got a bit too violent for the Man of Steel’s liking. This caused him to butt heads with Batman who didn’t take kindly to DC’s flagship character being away for a decade. This post-apocalyptic and futuristic storyline still has influence over DC 25 years later.

 

 

[Myrddin]

 

[Ran]

From The Hollywood Reporter:

Quote

Multiple sources tell The Hollywood Reporter that Patty Jenkins’ Wonder Woman 3 is not moving forward and is considered dead in its current incarnation.

...

The rest of the DC slate remains in flux, or at least being kept deep in a pocket of Gunn’s own utility belt but there are several rumors and possible scenarios to consider ahead of next week’s meeting.

The first, which builds on the shuttering of Jenkins’ Wonder Woman 3, is the closing curtain of the Snyderverse, and the heroes cast by filmmaker Zack Snyder for his Justice League. This one sees the shutting down of Man of Steel 2, with a returning Henry Cavill, and having no more Aquaman, fronted by Jason Momoa.

...

The Cavill situation is a more than a little thorny as the actor made a cameo in Black Adam, the DC-centric movie released in October. The Monday after the movie opened, Cavill posted a video on Instagram where he announced, “I wanted to make it official — I am back as Superman.”

And at that time, he was not incorrect. Warner Bros. was indeed developing a sequel for 2013’s Man of Steel and actively meeting with writers. Andy Muschietti, who directed Flash, even expressed interest in sitting behind the camera for something that would have brought a tone similar to the hopeful and heroic colors of the 1978 movie directed by Richard Donner, considered a benchmark in comic book movies. In fact, the current leadership team at Warner Bros Pictures — Michael De Luca and Pamela Abdy — did desire one more go-around of the Snyderverse heroes, possibly even having another Justice League movie with those actors.

But that was before Gunn and Safran began formulating their new (and still in flux) plan.

....

Johnson hoped to carve out his own piece of the DC pie, but multiple sources say his playing up of a returning Cavill and his own involvement with DC may not be endearing him to the new management. Johnson and Cavill are both managed by Dany Garcia, who is also Johnson’s producing partner. The perception of Adam turning a profit or not is a conflagration now being waged in public, with Johnson tweeting the movie would net over $50 million after a Variety story said the movie would lose over $50 million theatrically.

And more in those veins, including the rumor that Momoa might be recast as Lobo, which sounds like BS to me, even if he looks almost comically close to the character.

To me, the idea that Cavill dropped The Witcher because he knew he was doing a new Superman movie seems less likely now, since it doesn't seem there had been any firm commitments made.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

To me, the idea that Cavill dropped The Witcher because he knew he was doing a new Superman movie seems less likely now, since it doesn't seem there had been any firm commitments made.

I heard they paid him a ton of money to just keep racing Ezra Miller over and over again. 

[JGP]

Hard to sift truth from the DC rumor mill.

 

'Sources say that Jenkins recently submitted her treatment, co-written with Geoff Johns, and that... ' 

from: https://www.polygon.com/23499752/wonder-woman-3-canceled-dc-studios-henry-cavill-superman

I don't now how credible reporting like this is, but Johns may be part of the problem. His fingerprints are on too many DC box office failures. Black Adam looking to lose money [lol] I mean, I never liked Momoa for Aquaman anyway and have little interest in a Lobo film unless it's predominantly about his daughter Crush.  

If Cavill and all are really out, if Gunn and Safran actually can most of the current programs and talent [acting and otherwise] goody says I. 

Would indicate they're serious about righting this inexplicably faltering ship.

 

[Myrddin]

On the one hand, I hope Gunn/Safran completely start everything over from scratch.

On the other hand, I really like some of the existing cast, just not the baggage.

I'd say keep: Cavill, Gadot, Momoa (as Aquaman, but he'd be a great Lobo too), Robbie, and Cena (though not sure how he fits in with greater A list). I actually liked Affleck as beaten down Batman, but I know I'm in the minority on this.

Such a weird transition ahead, though. We have an imploding Flash movie that should've been the ideal vehicle to relaunch everything, as well as a bunch of other movies hitting theaters 2023 (Shazam, Aquaman, Blue Beetle). Do these just get treated like New Mutants? Dropped and forgotten? 

I don't envy Gunn and Safran's job ahead.

[JGP]

10 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

I don't envy Gunn and Safran's job ahead.

Jelly as fuck, personally lol

I've more or less been quietly despairing for years. There's no reason, none, that DC shounld't be holding its own against Marvel, but their film division has largely been underperforming from go in comparison and no way board/shareholders were happy about that. 

If it's on the fix now, good, but kind of baffling how it went on this long.  

[Myrddin]

Well, if Gunn's hair hadn't already gone stark white, the stress of the next few years would do it.

 

[JGP]

Speaking of... 

 

Good shit from Gunn v rumors, etc

 

 

Alex Ross art gets me every time  

[Rhom]

1 hour ago, Myrddin said:

On the one hand, I hope Gunn/Safran completely start everything over from scratch.

On the other hand, I really like some of the existing cast, just not the baggage.

I'd say keep: Cavill, Gadot, Momoa (as Aquaman, but he'd be a great Lobo too), Robbie, and Cena (though not sure how he fits in with greater A list). I actually liked Affleck as beaten down Batman, but I know I'm in the minority on this.

Such a weird transition ahead, though. We have an imploding Flash movie that should've been the ideal vehicle to relaunch everything, as well as a bunch of other movies hitting theaters 2023 (Shazam, Aquaman, Blue Beetle). Do these just get treated like New Mutants? Dropped and forgotten? 

I don't envy Gunn and Safran's job ahead.

I'm also in the camp that thought beaten down Batfleck wasn't bad.   

You ask do these get treated like New Mutants... hell, DC has already got an example for that, they did it to Batgirl.

And when it comes to asking where do you drop the cutting sword... they also had a successful Batman movie this year.  Do you drop the sequel there?

If I'm them, I keep the actors you listed as well.  They aren't the problem in and of themselves.  They've already shown themselves willing to do some unique uses of the properties that aren't tied in.  Joker, The Batman, being obvious examples.  Give us a hopeful Superman movie featuring Cavill.  Go from there.  Man of Steel was retroactively set to launch the DC film universe, so instead give us our favorite Kryptonian launching a new series of films.  Don't necessarily acknowledge their prior stories... but don't directly contradict them either.  Its a fine line to walk, but people are getting paid millions of dollars to walk these lines.

[Kalbear]

I think they should go a very different way from Marvel. Instead of having this giant Cinematic Universe of things - which is getting kind of old from the Marvel perspective anyway - go with what has been working for DC for a while now. 

Lots of different self-contained stories with little overlap and little concern of continuity. This has worked real well with their TV shows, their various DC animation projects, the iterations of video games (like Injustice or Gotham Knights), etc.

So you can have Matt Reeves Batman and have that as a specific line of movies, possibly with no superhero involvement at all. You can have Cavill-led Superman stories either stemming from previous content or just taking the character. You can have Justice League stories that assume knowledge of prior characters and are awesome, but require no other movies or even prior actors. Have Peacemaker stuff that pokes fun at some of the other stories too but doesn't need them to exist per se. Promote the great concepts and stories about these characters, but emphatically do NOT make them required to fit into the same universe. 

[JGP]

On 11/28/2022 at 12:26 PM, Calibandar said:

Agreed on all points. Saw the film, was very disappointed in it, a few good fight scenes was really the only thing it had going for it. Post credits scene was cool and reminds me that what you just really want to see is a new Cavill Superman film ( but I knew that already).

I know I'm coming way late to this. Been skimming the thread.

I find DC's fight boarding, directing, and choreography horrible, personally. I know a fair bit of it was Snyders' stamp on overall direction maybe? Anyway, if I had to put my last point on Black Adam, as a long time fan of the genre... keep Cyclone and Atom Smasher. Hodge is very talented which makes me feel he's being wasted. Would've been an incredible Icon. They can recast Fate, but whew, didn't they do Dr Fate dirty. They design concepts behind his magic, just, everything was absolute heehaw donkey hour crap. 

I could do without Johnson as Black Adam as well, but guess we might be stuck with that.

[JGP]

8 minutes ago, JGP said:

I could do without Johnson as Black Adam as well, but guess we might be stuck with that.

Like, legit. For real. In BA they'd cast Uli Latukefu [of Marco Polo] as an older version of his son and I just got to laugh.

He should've been Black Adam right there. 

/mini rant

[JGP]

50 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I'm also in the camp that thought beaten down Batfleck wasn't bad.   

You ask do these get treated like New Mutants... hell, DC has already got an example for that, they did it to Batgirl.

And when it comes to asking where do you drop the cutting sword... they also had a successful Batman movie this year.  Do you drop the sequel there?

If I'm them, I keep the actors you listed as well.  They aren't the problem in and of themselves.  They've already shown themselves willing to do some unique uses of the properties that aren't tied in.  Joker, The Batman, being obvious examples.  Give us a hopeful Superman movie featuring Cavill.  Go from there.  Man of Steel was retroactively set to launch the DC film universe, so instead give us our favorite Kryptonian launching a new series of films.  Don't necessarily acknowledge their prior stories... but don't directly contradict them either.  Its a fine line to walk, but people are getting paid millions of dollars to walk these lines.

All of this. 

The relationship between Gunn and Safran is going to be of paramount importance to this working out. Have to work together to convince the CEO. And their first go, maybe expectations should be managed. This is a huge pivot.

 

23 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

I think they should go a very different way from Marvel. Instead of having this giant Cinematic Universe of things - which is getting kind of old from the Marvel perspective anyway - go with what has been working for DC for a while now. 

Lots of different self-contained stories with little overlap and little concern of continuity. This has worked real well with their TV shows, their various DC animation projects, the iterations of video games (like Injustice or Gotham Knights), etc.

So you can have Matt Reeves Batman and have that as a specific line of movies, possibly with no superhero involvement at all. You can have Cavill-led Superman stories either stemming from previous content or just taking the character. You can have Justice League stories that assume knowledge of prior characters and are awesome, but require no other movies or even prior actors. Have Peacemaker stuff that pokes fun at some of the other stories too but doesn't need them to exist per se. Promote the great concepts and stories about these characters, but emphatically do NOT make them required to fit into the same universe. 

This too, but have no idea how you can avoid that. I can't recall which of the two did it first and can't be arsed to search, but a  multiverse is integral to resetting franchises of this sort. At some point, its got an inevitable gravity to it.  

[Myrddin]

48 minutes ago, Rhom said:

You ask do these get treated like New Mutants... hell, DC has already got an example for that, they did it to Batgirl.

That was worse. At least NM got released, not canned during post-production.

Re: Reeve's Batman - the rumor (sprinkle liberally with salt, ofc) is he's still developing both the sequel and Penguin spin off. That lends itself to your suggestion of independent series versus interconnected.

[JGP]

2 hours ago, Myrddin said:

Re: Reeve's Batman - the rumor (sprinkle liberally with salt, ofc) is he's still developing both the sequel and Penguin spin off. That lends itself to your suggestion of independent series versus interconnected.

This is interesting because Gunn has stated the complete opposite. That the DCU will be consistent across the broad spectrum of media.

Could also be interesting if they spin it like, DC movies will be as the comics are. Different creators will have their own style or casting, production design, visuals yadda yadda. There will be some editorial stamps or internal consistency. That would be big tent with room remaining for more interconnective content without breaking continuity. Just different visions between all that, with retconning made thou shalt not. At least for a while.

WB doesn't have the brand shackles Disney does right? 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 hours ago, JGP said:

I know I'm coming way late to this. Been skimming the thread.

I find DC's fight boarding, directing, and choreography horrible, personally. I know a fair bit of it was Snyders' stamp on overall direction maybe? Anyway, if I had to put my last point on Black Adam, as a long time fan of the genre... keep Cyclone and Atom Smasher. Hodge is very talented which makes me feel he's being wasted. Would've been an incredible Icon. They can recast Fate, but whew, didn't they do Dr Fate dirty. They design concepts behind his magic, just, everything was absolute heehaw donkey hour crap. 

I could do without Johnson as Black Adam as well, but guess we might be stuck with that.

Now I'm curious. My niece (16) saw it and said it wasn't very good. 

A few points:

It's interesting how DC: League of Super Pets kind of fell down the memory hole. It's likely that one also lost money at the box office. 2022 has been absolutely brutal for big screen animation.

Regarding the general lack of enthusiasm for stuff coming out of DC, I wouldn't rule out the influence the TV side of things is having. Between the arrowverse and all the other stuff on the CW, you've had about 50 seasons totaling over 1,000 hours of live action CBM content. In sheer volume that outstrips everything out there. Speaking of my 16 year old niece, she has never demonstrated any awareness of BvS or MoS but she used to be an avid fan of The Flash. My other niece (18) watched The Flash and Supergirl.

"Used to be" is the operative term here. They stopped watching because it just isn't very good. Granted, this is anecdotal, but I suspect it's pretty universal. Those shows still have their fans but they tend to generate very little online discourse as far as I can tell, and what they do generate is mostly concerned with a general overall decline; bad/repetitive story lines, meaningless character arcs, poor production values, etc. Maybe they poisoned the well? I can't comment on the quality because I'm barely a casual viewer. 

Additionally, anyone who has read my posts knows I'm generally bearish on capeshit and extremely bullish on Avatar. Avatar 2 will be the highest grossing film of 2022; given that it only needs $1.5 billion in order to do that.

So, in a year with 6 CBM's (3 MCU sequels and 3 DC non-sequels) and no F&F or Star Wars films in release:

• No CBM's in the W.W. Box Office top 3
• Only one (Dr Strange 2) in the top 5
• 2 of them underperformed (Wakanda Forever and Thor L&T)**
• 2 of them lost money (Black Adam and DC: Pets)

"Aha", I hear you say, "Spider-Man made all the moneys last year, you silly human!" That's true but that movie was the first MCU film not effected by Covid Lockdowns, and, the movie was pretty good apparently, and, Spider-Man is unique as being an extremely durable character and that film had three of them. They smashed the nostalgia button on this one in a way probably no film has ever done. You can only do that so many times before you get into deminishing returns. 

Don't get me wrong, these films will continue to get made and they will be massively profitable for years to come. But the cracks are starting to show. I wonder if DC's "relaunch" is coming at exactly the wrong time. 

**These movies both had (reported) $250 million production budgets. You don't spend that kind of money on an MCU sequel without expecting to join the billion dollar club. Thor 4 didn't get anywhere near that and Wakanda Forever looks unlikely to cross $900 million.