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Star Wars: Nothing But Star Wars


Myrddin

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I must say that is likely one of the best takes on things in this world I've ever read. Well done.

Thanks. It was bit cheeky but fundamentally on point I think. Piloting a single seat race car is fundamentally the same as a road car. I can pilot a car or light truck but I don't have an air brake certification. That's not to say I couldn't drive a truck or bus with air brakes, but I'd need a little instruction on how they work and I couldn't do it legally. On the other hand, someone with experience on a child's dirt bike understands the operation of everything up to a 700 lbs touring bike. They might need to find their rhythm on it, but they have the muscle memory and know where all the controls are. 

It wasn't always this way. Top Gear did a thing where they drove a Model T and the controls on that thing are completely foreign to me. 3 speed manual column shifters used to be a thing. So was dog-leg first gear on floor shift manuals. Anyone remember the high beam button on the floor next to the drivers left foot? All gone. I actually got crossed up when I got my current car because reverse is opposite where it was on my previous two cars, to I had to relearn that.

My niece used to work at the counter of a franchise auto parts store/repair shop. Every time someone came in with a manual gearbox the guys would sheepishly giver her the keys because none of these guys could drive stick. I take a perverse pleasure in that because I gave her her first driving lessons in a manual transmission car. Kid burned my clutch so bad I thought the car was on fire. She's out there emasculating young men all thanks to me. Good for her. 

Anyway, after about 100 years of mass produced cars and trucks, cockpits have been pretty standardized; in function if not in form.  In Star Wars space travel has existed for literally thousands of years. It only makes sense.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In this context one must also add that the folks in this world are all 'more enlightened beings' than we are - they have elected queens who are in their early teens, children can be pod-racing champions, human folks somehow can easily enough learn to understand Shyriwook, etc.

Casey Stoner was 16 when he first raced at the world championship level. I think he would have been up there sooner but there was an actual age restriction. There are plenty if kids much younger than that racing competitively on 2 wheels and 4 in national championships. 

What's really funny is that there is now a generation of F1 drivers who have never driven a manual transmission car. Give them paddle shifters and they know immediately what to do. Give them a classic with three pedals to do the hillclimb at Goodwood or something, and they need clutch practice and a lesson on heel-toe down shifting. 

2 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

Yep.  It’s called The Last Jedi.  Also, Leprechaun in Space is pretty bad.

That looks amazing

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8 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

Again, see above. Rey loses a bunch of fights and needs a ton of help from all sorts of people. Including the two parts you mention, where she is, ya know, losing. So yes, I agree - she wins all the fights except for the ones she loses. 

Not really Rey saves her self, from the first insistence I mentioned (when she asspulls the Jedi mind trick out of existence, because member buries), which by the way, wasn't a fight. She does need help the second time, I will admit, which is basically the only time she needs help in the entire series. Also no, Rey doesn't lose fights, heck, I don't even think she even sheds blood once in this entire series.

Having a difficult time at the start of a fight, doesn't count as losing a fight. Rocky has a hard time fighting Drago at the end of Rocky 4, but still beats him in the end. By your logic though, that still counts as a loss for Rocky, lol

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On 6/24/2022 at 1:18 PM, Caligula_K3 said:

Nah, it's worse. When the episode opened with Reva on Tatooine, I assumed there had been a big time jump. But instead, judging from the space chase scene, it had been thirty minutes since the end of the last episode. So in thirty minutes, Reva, who had been supposedly fatally stabbed, got a ship, went off planet, jumped to Tatooine, landed, and started walking around threatening people. I usually have a pretty high tolerance for fast travel in TV shows, but this was completely ridiculous.

It was ridiculous to begin with that the Grand Inquisitor didn't make sure she was dead after he survived his own seemingly fatal stabbing and monologued about how vengeance does wonders for the healing process. But damn, come on. She got to Tatooine that fast?

So that I'm not all negative in this thread, though, I will say that I loved the final lightsaber fight and the helmet half on/off effect, plus the dialogue in that scene. And I can't lie, I laughed at Obi Wan's "hello there!" Again, there was good stuff and a basically good idea underpinning this mini-series.

Vader and Inquisitor dude deliberately left her alive

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On 6/24/2022 at 1:57 PM, aceluby said:

I always just assumed that the x wings couldn't take the elements for that long of a time and it was easier/doable to adjust the speeders.  Could also just be limited x-wings and they were getting used to protect the larger ships as they escaped.

The surviving speeder pilots transferred to x-wings near the end.

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8 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Vader and Inquisitor dude deliberately left her alive

Why though? Just to suffer I guess? But that's weird when you consider his revenge/will to live line.

I also wonder, Vader knows about the "kidnap baby Leia to draw out Kenobi" plan, right? Wouldn't he wonder about the why of that, or do it again? Or just go force choke Bail until he gave him up?

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Regarding lightsabers and the force, as far as I know, you do require training to wield a lightsaber effectively, you can't do it just by using "the force".

Canonically, I think certain Jedi were particularly good with lightsabers? Like, Mace Windu for example is mentioned as being the most skilled with the lightsaber despite not being as strong in the force as Yoda.

There are also different lightsaber forms canonically. Obi-wan uses the really defensive form.

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1 hour ago, Darryk said:

Regarding lightsabers and the force, as far as I know, you do require training to wield a lightsaber effectively, you can't do it just by using "the force".

Canonically, I think certain Jedi were particularly good with lightsabers? Like, Mace Windu for example is mentioned as being the most skilled with the lightsaber despite not being as strong in the force as Yoda.

There are also different lightsaber forms canonically. Obi-wan uses the really defensive form.

Canonically? I dont think any forma are mentioned in canon, unless the cartoons do. 
 And is Mace Windi mentioned anywhere in canon as being good with a light saber except in now defunct EU?

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I was watching a bit of Episode 4 last night, and noticed that Obi-Wan says something along the lines of “Obi-Wan.  Now that’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time.  A long time.  I haven’t gone by the name Obi-Wan, oh, since before you were born.”

Well, so much for that.

EDIT: Although I guess you could interpret that as HE (Obi-Wan) referring to himself as “just Ben”, despite everyone else calling him Obi-Wan.

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10 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

And is Mace Windi mentioned anywhere in canon as being good with a light saber except in now defunct EU?

The Ultimate Star Wars reference book is endorsed by Lucasfilms as canonical, and therein Mace is said to be considered one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in generations or some such. The forms are also canon, being mentioned in The Visual Encyclopedia and in Star Wars Rebels, though specific details about them from the EU may no longer be accurate.

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2 hours ago, Darryk said:

Regarding lightsabers and the force, as far as I know, you do require training to wield a lightsaber effectively, you can't do it just by using "the force".

Canonically, I think certain Jedi were particularly good with lightsabers? Like, Mace Windu for example is mentioned as being the most skilled with the lightsaber despite not being as strong in the force as Yoda.

There are also different lightsaber forms canonically. Obi-wan uses the really defensive form.

 

14 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Canonically? I dont think any forma are mentioned in canon, unless the cartoons do. 
 And is Mace Windi mentioned anywhere in canon as being good with a light saber except in now defunct EU?

In Attack of the Clones Obi-Wan chastised Anakin during the speeder chase saying that if he applied himself more to his lessons he could rival Yoda in swordsmanship.

Later Anakin compares Obi-Wan to both Windu and Yoda, saying he's as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu. I think the powerful part implies skill in combat. 

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2 hours ago, Darryk said:

Regarding lightsabers and the force, as far as I know, you do require training to wield a lightsaber effectively, you can't do it just by using "the force".

Canonically, I think certain Jedi were particularly good with lightsabers? Like, Mace Windu for example is mentioned as being the most skilled with the lightsaber despite not being as strong in the force as Yoda.

There are also different lightsaber forms canonically. Obi-wan uses the really defensive form.

Well, if you're a hardcore SW devotee, Here's what I guess is a pretty comprehensive list (Canon and Legends) of references to "training lightsabers." these are the ones the younglings use that have special doodads that prevent the from chopping their wee legs and arms off. 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Training_lightsaber/Legends

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Training_lightsaber

The "Canon" page also has links to pages describing the various combat styles and techniques. 

I'm a bit fuzzy on this, but I'm pretty sure we see Duku training Ventress, Savage Opress, and General Grievous. Same for Kanaan and Ezra in Rebels. Definitely for Kanaan and Sabine in Rebels.

In Rebels, Kanaan has his force vision in a literal dojo with lightsabers mounted on the walls. In the season 5 finale of Clone Wars, we see Padawans training with their *actual* lightsabers; the ones they assembled after harvesting their crystals earlier in the series. And in season 1 of Kenobi we see Anakin and Obi Wan sparring at the Jedi temple. 

So yeah, it's firmly established that it's a skill that has to be learned and practiced as much as any other Jedi whosiwhatsit.

12 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

In Attack of the Clones Obi-Wan chastised Anakin during the speeder chase saying that if he applied himself more to his lessons he could rival Yoda in swordsmanship.

Yeah, this. 

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12 hours ago, sifth said:

The difference is Luke actually loses fights and gets help from others; heck you can make a drinking game out of how many times someone needs to save him in ANH. All Rey ever does is win, win and win some more. It was like it was a stipulation on Disney's part, that their new lead, wasn't allowed any moments of weakness. The closet we ever get is Ben putting her to sleep with his mind and Snoke hold her in place, with the force.

You have a small point there, but that's only an issue in the larger context of things, namely the bad writing. Fetish Guy isn't the big villain of TFA - that's Evil Hologram Dude. Thus Rey standing her ground and pushing back Fetish Guy isn't that big of a deal. He isn't the big bad at that point - that only happens (for five minutes) with the big 'twist' in TLJ.

In a properly written trilogy with character arcs and the like Rey would have actually faced considerable challenges she had to struggle to overcome.

But in the end that's just a problem of the writing, not a problem of the rules of that world. Because as I said - if the Force wants you to win you will win, never mind your 'training'.

That's pretty much established by blind Luke reflecting blaster bolts. If the Force favors you, helps you, you can do things that are actually impossible.

You could also cite Yoda as an example. The Force also allows him to move and fight in a manner that's outlandishly impossible. But he can do it either way.

11 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Rogue One - Nothing about this movie stands out to me.  Characters are all so bland.  CGI Tarkin creeps me out.

I like CGI Tarkin, but basic plot, the non-existing 'good characters', and some of the background details ('good/conflicted Death Star designers) do suck pretty hard. This movie could have been so much better without the silly fake tension about whether the Rebels would do something, without the 'we have to recruit the outsider' plot (which was so pointless since she was given the perfect motivation to be a Rebel operative in the beginning), and by actually giving us some in-universe diversity among the crew (aliens) and actual personalities.

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Vader stands out. Krennec is memorable. I liked Jyn Erso.

If I may inject some positivity in this thread, related to the whole lightsaber discussion, Season 5 Episode 6 of The Clone wars; "The Gathering" is one of my favorite half hour's of television ever. This is the one where the kids go to harvest their crystals. It's the beginning of a four episode arc where there's a kidnapping and a mutiny and Hondo does some Hondo stuff. There's also a cool lightsaber construction droid that does stuff. 

Well written. Cool visuals. The music. This hits me right in the feels. It works feels I didn't know I had. The cockle and sub-cockle feels that never get enough exercise.  

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Jyn Erso's narrative arc was about someone who'd become disillusioned and had removed herself from the conflict, only to witness the efforts and sacrifices of others and deciding to return to it following being dragooned into it just because of her father. Making her a Rebel agent all along would have basically left her with no arc to speak of, or would have made her a female clone of Andor. (The only real flaw for me in the film was Andor's and Jyn's relationship, especially as to affecting Andor enough that he decided not to kill her father, because it was underdeveloped due to having everything else going on. Yet if the choice was to cut some characters to make that work better, I couldn't see doing that because they helped make the movie what it was.)

And I thought Felicity Jones was really excellent in the part. It's a very good film, Rogue One, and visually there's something really special about it. Only The Last Jedi matches it from the sequels, IMO, and that's fitfully and with a lot of baggage attached.

 

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33 minutes ago, Ran said:

Jyn Erso's narrative arc was about someone who'd become disillusioned and had removed herself from the conflict, only to witness the efforts and sacrifices of others and deciding to return to it following being dragooned into it just because of her father. Making her a Rebel agent all along would have basically left her with no arc to speak of, or would have made her a female clone of Andor. (The only real flaw for me in the film was Andor's and Jyn's relationship, especially as to affecting Andor enough that he decided not to kill her father, because it was underdeveloped due to having everything else going on. Yet if the choice was to cut some characters to make that work better, I couldn't see doing that because they helped make the movie what it was.)

There was no need for the Andor character in that movie - it could have been only Jyn. And she could have gotten a different personal arc - say, about her efforts within the Rebellion, what it meant for her, what she wanted to accomplish ... and her final conclusion could have been that giving her life for the cause if it meant that they had a chance to destroy the Death Star would be worth it. The way they played it the Rebellion is pretty much a joke - they were a bunch of morons who needed an outsider to convince them to risk something. That was not the way to write the established leaders of the Rebellion.

In addition, the whole 'the plans are at one place we can conveniently attack' was just silly. They are digital plans, there could be multiple copies, etc., meaning the plot could and should have been more a spy movie than a heist movie. One could have had a mole inside the Empire or a defector whose untimely death triggered a raid of a place where he either kept the plans or where they were stored for some reason.

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

If I may inject some positivity in this thread, related to the whole lightsaber discussion, Season 5 Episode 6 of The Clone wars; "The Gathering" is one of my favorite half hour's of television ever. This is the one where the kids go to harvest their crystals. It's the beginning of a four episode arc where there's a kidnapping and a mutiny and Hondo does some Hondo stuff. There's also a cool lightsaber construction droid that does stuff. 

Yeah, that one was pretty good.

I jumped into a rewatch of Rebels yesterday. The show is pretty good.

In relation to lightsaber stuff we also see pretty of young guys holding their own against really powerful people - Ahsoka against Grievous in early TCW, Ezra against the Inquisitor in early Rebels (and he and Kanan even survive an encounter with Vader early in season 2, although they have no chance to defeat him).

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4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

In Attack of the Clones Obi-Wan chastised Anakin during the speeder chase saying that if he applied himself more to his lessons he could rival Yoda in swordsmanship.

Later Anakin compares Obi-Wan to both Windu and Yoda, saying he's as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu. I think the powerful part implies skill in combat. 

Is asskissing not a thing Star Wars.

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On 6/23/2022 at 8:49 PM, Rubicante said:

1. When the Rebels escape Hoth, there isn’t a single Imperial ship when Luke leaves the planet.  Yet the Falcon is completely surrounded.  Why?

 

Vader had control of Death Squadron, which if I remember correctly was initially only six ships (usual Imperial fleet comp focusing on ISDs, six or so ISD I and II's: Devastator, Tyrant, Avenger, Conquest, Stalker and the Lady Ex). Presumably, Tyrant (Captain Lennox) had moved out of the formation to cut off escape, got hit and disabled and besides, seventeen of the thirty GR75s were destroyed, which means the rest of the fleet was doing something. 

Probably Vader ordered the fleet to pursue the Falcon, and since the blockade was probably only piecemeal if the capital ships blasted after the Falcon, I can believe that Luke, who left later than Han and his band of fellows, managed to take a different vector offplanet and reach the hyperlane. 

On 6/23/2022 at 8:49 PM, Rubicante said:

2. Luke goes from a farm boy to somehow knowing how to fly an x-wing with absolutely no pilot or military training.  It’s absurd.

 

Incom Corporation, the company that produced the Z95 Headhunter, the T65 X-wing, etc also produced the T16, which was said to have very similar controls to the X-wing.  Plus, he almost gets blown up, and he only destroys the TIE fighter when his targeting computer locks on. As for destroying the DS-1, well...."Use the Force, Luke."

On 6/23/2022 at 8:49 PM, Rubicante said:

2. Not only is the Falcon hiding on the back of a Star Destroyer ridiculous (do the ships not have proximity sensors?), it does so in the span of 3-4 seconds from flying past the bridge window.  Sure, the Falcon is quick,  but there is no way it could maneuver that fast.

 

Yeah, it's a bit ridiculous, so I'll hand you this. 

On 6/23/2022 at 8:49 PM, Rubicante said:

1. The Rebels cannot win that space battle.  If you look at the screen after Ackbar says “It’s a Trap!”, you can count somewhere around 25-30 Star Destroyers.  We see two Star Destroyers get destroyed, one normal one and the Executor.  Even after the Death Star is destroyed, they still vastly outnumber the Rebels.  Instead the Imperial Fleet just mystically disappears.

 

Well, first, the Imperial Fleet saw the Death Star blow up, and they think the Emperor was on it, with Lord Vader, the Executor has crashed into the battle station, the rebels are everywhere, they've lost multiple Star Destroyers....I can easily believe order broke down in the ranks. Plus, we hear in Legends lore that the secondary command ship got attacked by Green Squadron and destroyed or damaged, so...

As for the battle itself, from what I see the Destroyers only really start visibly pounding away once the rebels are amongst them. Remember, their orders weren't to destroy the rebel fleet, only to keep them penned in with firepower and a couple of interdictors so the DS-2 could blow them up. Plus, though I have doubts that each Rebel starfighter was fully loaded with proton bombs, proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, I'm sure that they had enough stuff to take out capital ships. Those ships were designed to come out of hyperspace, fire off missiles and such before the TIEs could launch (plus, ISDs have really weak/nonexistent point defense systems) Imperial TIEs are far more deficient, coming a viewpoint of "quality over quantity" and rebel fleets were good at starfighter screening, etc. 

Those ships were probably getting hit with bucketloads of munitions, and Mon Cal cruisers are supposed to be really well shielded. It's not just the two, it's supposed to be about half the fleet that's destroyed, captured or damaged. 

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

Jyn Erso's narrative arc was about someone who'd become disillusioned and had removed herself from the conflict, only to witness the efforts and sacrifices of others and deciding to return to it following being dragooned into it just because of her father.

I thought her exchange with Gerrera, where she says "it's not a problem if you don't look up," was some of the best characterization in anything Star Wars since the OT.  Frankly it's better than a lot of the characterization in the OT.  And very easy to relate to these days.

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Watched the first half of ANH to see how much the Obi Wan series fits into it. As I thought, it doesn’t make sense at all and a lot of the dialogue now seems completely disconnected from the series.

For instance ‘obi wan? I haven’t gone by that name since before you were born’..  LIAR!!!

in fact the whole tone of the movie suggests Obi Wan has been hiding out in the desert since after Order 66, and thinking that actually he hasn’t been doing that doesn’t fit at all on rewatch.

Then when Leias message is seen, she sets the tone to say she knows Kenobi because he helped her father.. talking to him as if she doesn’t know him. 
 

For me the Obi Wan show is basically fan fiction, it won’t be canon in my head, it’s just another thing I need to try to ignore when watching the OT

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