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Star Wars: Nothing But Star Wars


Myrddin
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13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Is that really true? Anakin was hyped up as the chosen one, the most powerful force user going during the prequels. Darth Vader is positioned as this incredible force of nature and of almost pure evil in the OT. The idea that he could just replaced with some other apprentice kind of defeats the entire point of the prequels.

Yep, absolutely!  The fact Yoda and Obi-Wan (and, really, this is on Yoda more than Obi-Wan) rely on and pressure the 19-year-old son (or alternatively, his twin sister) of the chosen one to kill said chosen one makes them really lazy dicks once we see what happens in the PT/ROTS.  Once they figure out who Palpatine is, their focus should have been on killing him.  If they wanted Vader dead so bad as to pressure Luke into it in ESB and the beginning of ROTJ, why the fuck didn't just do it themselves in the intervening 19 years?  That's been a huge problem since the PT/ROTS came out, and I really didn't expect this series to reconcile that.  I'm not sure how you do reconcile that as long as you consider both the OT and PT canon, but I'm open to suggestions.

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

I think Vader gets his TIE Advance later on (I vaguely remember a Rebels episode featuring it, but might be misremembering).

Yes, he has it in Rebels S2 and Hera tricks the Star Destroyer into catching it instead of the Ghost in their tractor beam in order to escape (partly due to Vader being distracted because he’s just sensed Ahsoka and realised she’s alive)

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I mean I agree that there are huge logic holes between the prequels and the OT but not sure adding in a new one is all that excusable either. 
 

13 minutes ago, mormont said:

I can only say that for all my other issues with the series, I had no problem at all understanding Reva's motivations or decisions in going after Luke. Crystal clear to me. YMMV.

 

To be honest I have to admit I probably wasn’t paying attention due the extreme boredom the series inflicted on me,  but what was her motivation for pursuing Luke? She wanted to get to Vader, fails, almost dies.. then goes looking for Luke.. because? 
 

I’m sure I missed something there 

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So we are thinking that putting down Palpatine would have made everything better? With there being lots of Sith guys out there, Vader or some of the Inquisitors would have taken over, no?

If Yoda and Obi-Wan successfully kill Palpatine they will immediately become the two most powerful force users alive.  Clearly, they can handle Vader, which this series reinforces but frankly was already clear.  Plus, even if they weren't, Vader's volatility and limitations make him a far more palatable adversary even if he does take over for Palpatine.  Same goes for all the Inquisitors, at least in terms of their relative limitations.

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

(1) He owes him as much in light what he did to him in ROTS - Vader deserves a mercy killing, if only for the memory of Anakin Skywalker.

Sure, that idea I would've accepted.  But I think the alternative of what happened - Vader telling him he killed Anakin, not Obi-Wan, and thus Obi-Wan saying "goodbye Darth" - works even better.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

(2) Obi-Wan owes it to himself and the galaxy to put a stop and/or punish to that particular monster he himself helped to create if he is able to do it.

Nah, the Jedi way - and particularly Obi-Wan's conception of the Jedi way - is not about punishment or revenge for its own sake.  You're right that Obi-Wan walking away after what he did to him in ROTS is cruel, that's part of Obi-Wan's guilt.  But I agree with Obi-Wan that it's pretty weird ethics to make up for that by killing the man.

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36 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yep, absolutely!  The fact Yoda and Obi-Wan (and, really, this is on Yoda more than Obi-Wan) rely on and pressure the 19-year-old son (or alternatively, his twin sister) of the chosen one to kill said chosen one makes them really lazy dicks once we see what happens in the PT/ROTS.  Once they figure out who Palpatine is, their focus should have been on killing him.  If they wanted Vader dead so bad as to pressure Luke into it in ESB and the beginning of ROTJ, why the fuck didn't just do it themselves in the intervening 19 years?  That's been a huge problem since the PT/ROTS came out, and I really didn't expect this series to reconcile that.  I'm not sure how you do reconcile that as long as you consider both the OT and PT canon, but I'm open to suggestions.

It’s not a great answer, but I guess they just aren’t powerful enough. I suppose the idea in the OT is that Obi-Wan is a typical Jedi, not necessarily the Best Ever, and as far as we knew then Yoda wasn’t even a fighter. So Obi-Wan can’t beat Vader (and so does some fancy force ghosting instead) and Yoda can’t beat Palpatine. They need a super special Skywalker spawn to achieve those goals.

Then Lucas fucked up the PT, and Obi-Wan is apparently amazing, then Yoda is a fighter after all and very nearly beats the Emperor, then this series shows that Obi-Wan can beat Vader if he wants. But even though it was done very poorly, Yoda did lose to Palps so the basic idea is still there.

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59 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Is that really true? Anakin was hyped up as the chosen one, the most powerful force user going during the prequels. Darth Vader is positioned as this incredible force of nature and of almost pure evil in the OT. The idea that he could just replaced with some other apprentice kind of defeats the entire point of the prequels.

I think Anakin was being flattered somewhat by those around him (especially Palpatine). The nature of the Sith was cyclical, with master-and-apprentice cycle repeating themselves for a thousand years. Anakin was more powerful that some or most or even all, but the general idea was that the cycle would continue no matter what. Admittedly this is because it was George Lucas throwing out cool-sounding vague ideas, some of which didn't stick and weren't explained (especially when the horribly negative response to the midichlorian idea made him change course). Was Anakin really an immaculate conception from the Force itself or was there some other weird SF explanation (Shmi was impregnated without her knowledge by - urgh - Palpatine or Plageuis or something)? We don't know.

Both the Expanded Universe and new canon have had problems in sustaining that, hence their decision to bring in "Sith but they're actually Dark Jedi or Grey Jedi or some shit like that." If Vader falls, the Emperor promotes the Grand Inquisitor in his place, and he and all ten of his minions running around are probably as effective as Vader, if not moreso. It's not ideal, but it's like when he had Maul instead running around: you go with what you've got.

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52 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yep, absolutely!  The fact Yoda and Obi-Wan (and, really, this is on Yoda more than Obi-Wan) rely on and pressure the 19-year-old son (or alternatively, his twin sister) of the chosen one to kill said chosen one makes them really lazy dicks once we see what happens in the PT/ROTS.  Once they figure out who Palpatine is, their focus should have been on killing him.  If they wanted Vader dead so bad as to pressure Luke into it in ESB and the beginning of ROTJ, why the fuck didn't just do it themselves in the intervening 19 years?  That's been a huge problem since the PT/ROTS came out, and I really didn't expect this series to reconcile that

Yeah once we saw Obi Wan literally take Vader to pieces, and Yoda stalemate Palpatine as extremely powerful and vital characters the OT setup of them 20 years later as these exiled old hermits as the last remnants of the Jedi holding on to the flame of good against an all powerful evil empire kinda goes out the window. Doubly so given how many Jedi and other named characters survived order 66 and that there are a whole bunch of other force-sensative and force-using characters who aren't official Jedi for whatever reasons that they could've rounded up if they wanted a posse. Now they just look like assholes basically saying "we tried, guess it's up to the next generation to take a swing" and sitting on their asses for a couple of decades while evil reigns so they can then proclaim "It's your destiny" and throw a barely trained child who they didn't bother to mention the existence of force lighting to on a suicide mission.

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2 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

What do you get for your $120 a year? What do you possess in return for that money? Access to definably select 'content'. Conditional to the offerings of the controlling interest, at use with their discretion, and unavailable without exposure to their monitoring of what you watch, when, how much, and how reliably. 

You're paying an amount of money that used to buy four to six movies a year -that were YOURS, useable at your discretion and without outside monitoring- for the right to rent under the eye of a monopolistic enterprise.

Yeah. There's a lot more than Kenobi coming along with that service.

Actually we get it free due to a phone package and everything you said applies to every streaming service and cable outlet in the world so...

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Look at what they've done to y'all. You're defending an institution that sees you as habit forming dependants. You're hooked on digital meth and it's rotting your brains. Look at the thousands and thousands and thousands of words spent here discussing the most recent "content" that, like, one-and-a-half dudes seems to have enjoyed. But you all watched it. Kept your subs. You're all arguing over how it squares with the other "content" anyway. Look at the endless scrollings of REACTIONS videos and BREAKDOWNS and EXPLANATIONIZING videos on YouTube that represent a kid's best chance to change their life meaningfully and swiftly if it can get picked up by the algorithm.

Is this what being a fan of something is? Doesn't it bother you that these companies are obviously rushing out half-conceived and under-produced crap because they didn't make it on projection of return on investment, they already have your investment? And pretty reliable data suggesting they're gonna continue getting it? The reason there's a new Star Wars "content" every few months isn't because smart talented people have stories they wanna share with you, it's to keep enticing trailers available so that you think the NEXT thing might be worth it. Because sorry, Ran, but while you may be able to use and lose your subs because you're a smart guy the vast vast vast vast majority of users don't use intermittently despite whatever they say around the water-cooler.

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The teat is spent. The milks gone bad!

The cash cow of endless sequels, reboots (hard and soft) and shared universes is a double edged sword. That thing that  guarantees a built-in fanbase and box office returns is also a creative straight jacket of canon, studio driven fan service, repetition, endless debates about trivial minutia, and eventual creative bankruptcy. The whole thing is doomed to a slow death. We're entering the final stages now.

Beyond that there's actually some very good stuff. Most of what I've seen over the last few years has been wholly original work or fresh takes on stuff that isn't a comic book or existing franchise. There's hope yet. 

I view my relationship with Star Wars much like Slim Pickens' relationship with the bomb at the end of Dr Strangelove. I believed in it for as long as I can remember. I don't love it like I once did; I could let go; but I'm having so much fun riding it into the void.

...

Yeah so anyway, Anakin had his little heart-to-heart with Obi Wan after he smashed his chest box, so I may have been off on the whole "tiny LP" thing.  I humbly offer my sincerest apologies to all participants of this thread. I am so, so sorry. 

 

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Although I agree that the PT and the Disney movies/shows have a lot of plot inconsistencies, I think people view the OT with so much nostalgia that they cannot even admit there are any plot problems in those movies, especially Episodes 4 and 5.  So please humour me by giving explanations to the following.  I’ll take 2 from each movie.

Episode 4

1. Why wouldn’t the Star Destroyer destroy an escape pod with no life forms in it?  If you know the plans are onboard the Tantive IV, why would you risk there being a chance of anything getting out?  To quote Family Guy, are they “paying by the laser”?

2. Luke goes from a farm boy to somehow knowing how to fly an x-wing with absolutely no pilot or military training.  It’s absurd.

Episode 5

1. When the Rebels escape Hoth, there isn’t a single Imperial ship when Luke leaves the planet.  Yet the Falcon is completely surrounded.  Why?

2. Not only is the Falcon hiding on the back of a Star Destroyer ridiculous (do the ships not have proximity sensors?), it does so in the span of 3-4 seconds from flying past the bridge window.  Sure, the Falcon is quick,  but there is no way it could maneuver that fast.

Episode 6

1. The Rebels cannot win that space battle.  If you look at the screen after Ackbar says “It’s a Trap!”, you can count somewhere around 25-30 Star Destroyers.  We see two Star Destroyers get destroyed, one normal one and the Executor.  Even after the Death Star is destroyed, they still vastly outnumber the Rebels.  Instead the Imperial Fleet just mystically disappears.

2. This one I won’t harp on because most people agree.  No way the small amount of Rebels on Endor and Ewoks can take out a legion of Imperial troops.

 

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20 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

the Executor. 

Ha, funny story. This card, which I can't believe is worth anything at this point, back when I was a kid was incredibly rare and impossible to get. I drew three in a day buying only a couple more packs from three different stores.

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30 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

2. Luke goes from a farm boy to somehow knowing how to fly an x-wing with absolutely no pilot or military training.  It’s absurd.

Well, not "no" pilot training.  As he likes to brag, he did use to bullseye womp rats in his T-16.  Sick bastard.

 

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17 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

1. Why wouldn’t the Star Destroyer destroy an escape pod with no life forms in it?

Why would they? Better to send someone to check it out later when they're less busy, just in case there is something important inside (even if they want to destroy the something, they also want to know they've destroyed it).

17 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

2. Luke goes from a farm boy to somehow knowing how to fly an x-wing with absolutely no pilot or military training.  It’s absurd.

His piloting and shooting skills are well established in dialogue before he gets in the x-wing, and the Force gives him an advantage with aim and reaction time. He's presumably never had enemy ships trying to shoot him before, but everything else is familiar territory, including flying down a narrow canyon. There's no reason to assume ships don't have standardised controls in the SW universe.

17 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

1. When the Rebels escape Hoth, there isn’t a single Imperial ship when Luke leaves the planet.  Yet the Falcon is completely surrounded.  Why?

The x-wing has a working hyperdrive. The Imperial fleet had moved safely out of range of the Ion Cannon, and took time to move in again.

17 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

Sure, the Falcon is quick,  but there is no way it could maneuver that fast.

It obviously can.

17 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

Even after the Death Star is destroyed, they still vastly outnumber the Rebels.  Instead the Imperial Fleet just mystically disappears.

They panic and run away before realising that they still have the advantage? Or just reassess whether they want to be risking their lives when the things they were defending have already been destroyed? Sure, they might be certain of winning, but they'd take a lot of casualties in the process, and they don't need to worry about the Emperor's displeasure any more.

17 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

2. This one I won’t harp on because most people agree.  No way the small amount of Rebels on Endor and Ewoks can take out a legion of Imperial troops.

Triumph against overwhelming odds is a pretty standard trope, and they make good use of the terrain.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Well, not "no" pilot training.  As he likes to brag, he did use to bullseye womp rats in his T-16.  Sick bastard.

 

Biggs Darklighter, based on the above, vouched for him as the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim. A scene that was filmed but cut when they also cut the 4 minute Toshe Station scene introducing Biggs for time, not because there were any issues with the consistency of the dialog.

1 hour ago, felice said:

There's no reason to assume ships don't have standardised controls in the SW universe.

Canonically, both craft are produced by the same corporation (Incom) and are explicitly said to have similar controls and flight characteristics. So, yeah, they dotted their's i and crosed their t's on this particular complaint. 

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29 minutes ago, Ran said:

Biggs Darklighter, based on the above, vouched for him as the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim. A scene that was filmed but cut when they also cut the 4 minute Toshe Station scene introducing Biggs for time, not because there were any issues with the consistency of the dialog.

Canonically, both craft are produced by the same corporation (Incom) and are explicitly said to have similar controls and flight characteristics. So, yeah, they dotted their's i and crosed their t's on this particular complaint. 

There is the issue where shooting womp rats and getting his arse kicked by sand people is his prior combat experience. Then he’s owning stormtroopers and blowing up TIE fighters and a Death Star. With no combat training and without freezing up?
 

Edited by Derfel Cadarn
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2 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Although I agree that the PT and the Disney movies/shows have a lot of plot inconsistencies, I think people view the OT with so much nostalgia that they cannot even admit there are any plot problems in those movies, especially Episodes 4 and 5.  So please humour me by giving explanations to the following.  I’ll take 2 from each movie.

Episode 4

1. Why wouldn’t the Star Destroyer destroy an escape pod with no life forms in it?  If you know the plans are onboard the Tantive IV, why would you risk there being a chance of anything getting out?  To quote Family Guy, are they “paying by the laser”?

2. Luke goes from a farm boy to somehow knowing how to fly an x-wing with absolutely no pilot or military training.  It’s absurd.

Episode 5

1. When the Rebels escape Hoth, there isn’t a single Imperial ship when Luke leaves the planet.  Yet the Falcon is completely surrounded.  Why?

2. Not only is the Falcon hiding on the back of a Star Destroyer ridiculous (do the ships not have proximity sensors?), it does so in the span of 3-4 seconds from flying past the bridge window.  Sure, the Falcon is quick,  but there is no way it could maneuver that fast.

Episode 6

1. The Rebels cannot win that space battle.  If you look at the screen after Ackbar says “It’s a Trap!”, you can count somewhere around 25-30 Star Destroyers.  We see two Star Destroyers get destroyed, one normal one and the Executor.  Even after the Death Star is destroyed, they still vastly outnumber the Rebels.  Instead the Imperial Fleet just mystically disappears.

2. This one I won’t harp on because most people agree.  No way the small amount of Rebels on Endor and Ewoks can take out a legion of Imperial troops.

 

Other issues: why didn’t the Imperial fleet launch TIE’s to shoot down the fleeing rebels? Or provide air cover to the ground forces? The Executer alone carried a shit-ton of fighters.

We saw TIE bombers bomb the asteroids, why not send then against the rebel base to soften them up?

Why did the rebels send speeders against AT-AT’s when they had X-wings waiting? Why not send the x-wings to take out the imperial landing craft before the troops landed or disembarked?

Or use the ion cannon to shoot down the landing craft?

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51 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Other issues: why didn’t the Imperial fleet launch TIE’s to shoot down the fleeing rebels? Or provide air cover to the ground forces? The Executer alone carried a shit-ton of fighters.

We saw TIE bombers bomb the asteroids, why not send then against the rebel base to soften them up?

Why did the rebels send speeders against AT-AT’s when they had X-wings waiting? Why not send the x-wings to take out the imperial landing craft before the troops landed or disembarked?

Or use the ion cannon to shoot down the landing craft?

Yep.  Had Empire come out in 2022, we would be pointing all of these things out and talking about how mediocre the writing is.

Was the Kenobi show perfect? No, absolutely not.  Did it have lots of plot problems? Yes.  Overall though I liked it because these things stood out for me.

1. Darth Vader entering the village at night, and Obi-Wan witnessing the horror of Vader for the first time.

2. The flashback sequence between Obi-Wan and Anakin.

3. Vader completely owning the Third Sister when she tried to kill him.

4. Vader and Obi-Wan with Vader’s helmet half broken.  The emotion McGregor sold in that scene was nothing like I have ever seen in Star Wars before.

5. Owen Lars portrayed in a way that adds a lot of depth to his character.

6. Child actress for Leia was fantastic.

7. Ewan McGregor overall was fantastic as Obi-Wan.

8. I like the Grand Inquisitor.  Pretty rational guy for a Dark Side user.

There are more things that I really liked.  But if I can list 8 things I liked  within the span of two minutes, then it was a successful series for me.

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