Star Wars: Nothing But Star Wars

[Ran]

7 hours ago, RumHam said:

What the hell. The more I learn about this guy the less I like him.

Eh, he made one joke when handing an award to the film's publicist, saying that he was the reason everyone thought it was the best film when it was actually the worst -- in context, clearly a joke.

The idea that he has a "chip on his shoulder" about it is, IMO, fan mythology. His commentary on the final film is pretty positive, but he has admitted that he thought it was too slow and could have used more action beats. And bear in mind, his opinion was the typical opinion from reviewers and viewers alike when the film released. And who knows, maybe a film with more tempo to it would have been as good or better than what we got. (Unlikely, I know, but still -- no one can say Lucas is categorically wrong, because the film he envisioned doesn't exist.)

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

50 minutes ago, Werthead said:

But yes, it is true that ESB went massively over budget and caused them a lot of problems, and Kurtz took some of the blame for that, because he was happy to let Kershner do his own thing. But we should remember that, at least for many years, Lucas did not like ESB at all and considered it the weakest of the original trilogy (if not the first six), and did seem to have had a chip on his shoulder about it being cited as the best film of the series, since it was the one he was least involved with.

He was definitely very resentful of going back to the studio to ask for money to finish the thing.

Lucas' history dealing with studios prior to ANH is not a happy one. THX 1138 was so poorly received by WB that it effectively ended American Zoetrope when WB cancelled all the other projects they contracted with them. Not only that, WB told Coppola he was in breach of contract and that he had to pay back the $300k they'd advanced him. That's why he took the screenwriting job on Patton and the directing gig on The Godfather. Lucas and Coppola wouldn't work with WB for a long time after that and then only rarely. I think domestic distribution on The Clone Wars animated movie was WB.

Then came American Graffiti, another movie where the studio gave Lucas a hard time. There is an anecdote that a studio exec didn't believe the results of a particularly successful test screening because he thought they'd just packed the place with their friends. Coppola, now flush with Godfather moneys, was so livid he pulled out his checkbook and told the guy that if he didn't believe in the film he'd buy it on the spot.  

Then there's Star Wars, where, despite being massively successful, wasn't a big financial success for Lucas himself. He'd taken a lump sum and trivial residuals in favor of keeping creative and merchandising rights. He actually thought the film wold lose money for the studio and he'd get rich selling toys. He was a little off.

Then when Empire comes along he's able to finance the thing himself. The deal he offered Fox was almost punitive: 75% of the gross according to Easy Riders Raging Bulls, which left nothing for the studio except a side deal for distribution. It must have killed him to go to them and ask for money.   

[Kalbear]

33 minutes ago, mormont said:

It's not really connected as far as I can see. My point was that Disney liked the deep well of IP that came with the Star Wars deal, same as the Marvel deal.

Now, so far the Disney SW live action series have done one wildly successful original idea and two of the most obvious ideas, the latter two being somewhat undercooked in various ways. But the problem isn't a lack of ideas for them to mine, is my point. The problem is selecting the right ones and executing it well.

Seems like a big fucking problem!

And while they have in theory a lot of ideas to mine, they appear to be incredibly reluctant to do anything particularly original; they've relied heavily on filling in info and exploring stories in the gaps, and then bringing in established characters as cameos - first leaning hard on Clone Wars and then actual previous characters. Heck, now we have spinoffs based on their spinoffs with Ahsoka and Boba Fett and the Republic Rangers and whatnot. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

8 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Seems like a big fucking problem!

And while they have in theory a lot of ideas to mine, they appear to be incredibly reluctant to do anything particularly original; they've relied heavily on filling in info and exploring stories in the gaps, and then bringing in established characters as cameos - first leaning hard on Clone Wars and then actual previous characters. Heck, now we have spinoffs based on their spinoffs with Ahsoka and Boba Fett and the Republic Rangers and whatnot. 

Slow your roll, friend. Nice to see you got a fucking hold of yourself by the end of that post. "Heck." 

And yeah, they seem very gun shy about blazing new trails in this franchise. All the planned/existing stories (save one maybe) take place between Ep. 3 & 4 or Ep. 6 & 7. The Cameos. The Easter eggs. The fan service. Oh, my. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

44 minutes ago, mormont said:

Now, so far the Disney SW live action series have done one wildly successful original idea and two of the most obvious ideas, the latter two being somewhat undercooked in various ways. But the problem isn't a lack of ideas for them to mine, is my point. The problem is selecting the right ones and executing it well.

Which they haven't done, nor has their original creations been much better. You're right, they do have so much to draw from (as a kid I really enjoyed some of the random bounty hunter books one of my step-brothers had. #IG-88) and it's their responsibility to execute on whatever stories they decide on, but is it not fair at this point to say Disney has massively underdelivered on the quality side while also recognizing they've made a fuck ton of money?
 

[DMC]

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

And while they have in theory a lot of ideas to mine, they appear to be incredibly reluctant to do anything particularly original; they've relied heavily on filling in info and exploring stories in the gaps, and then bringing in established characters as cameos - first leaning hard on Clone Wars and then actual previous characters. Heck, now we have spinoffs based on their spinoffs with Ahsoka and Boba Fett and the Republic Rangers and whatnot. 

While I agree with all the rest of this you leave Ahsoka alone!

[Slurktan]

I just watched ep 4. The cgi on the speeders was sharktopus vs megashark level. I'm legitimately mad at how bad that was.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Don't these shows have a per-episode budget comparable to the final seasons of GoT? The production values just don't seem to be there at times.

OTOH, the recent Star Trek stuff has been pretty amazing in that regard. 

[Darryk]

To be honest I still love ROTJ and can't say I'm unhappy with the changes that Lucas made to the original draft. I think Luke and Leia being siblings works, and the emperor's death is one of my favorite scenes in the trilogy. On the other hand, as an adult I would have preferred wookies to ewoks, although as I kid I obviously loved the ewoks.

I'm pretty sure Vader was not supposed to be Luke's father originally, so changes the original draft are hardly a bad thing.

That said Gary Kurtz does sound useful in that he was willing to say no to Lucas. And I do wonder if ESB would have been as good without his influence.

Guess I'm saying Gary Kurtz was a mixed bag, but ultimately it was good for Lucas to not be surrounded by yes men.

[Werthead]

5 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Don't these shows have a per-episode budget comparable to the final seasons of GoT? The production values just don't seem to be there at times.

In that ballpark, if not larger. I believe The Mandalorian was around $15 million per episode, which is on a par with GoT in Seasons 7-8 (or less, due to inflation). Obi-Wan might be more, though, as an "event" series.

Stranger Things and the MCU shows are around $25-30 million (which I suspect is closer to the real budget of The Rings of Power as well) per episode.

[DMC]

13 hours ago, Ran said:

His commentary on the final film is pretty positive, but he has admitted that he thought it was too slow and could have used more action beats. And bear in mind, his opinion was the typical opinion from reviewers and viewers alike when the film released. And who knows, maybe a film with more tempo to it would have been as good or better than what we got. (Unlikely, I know, but still -- no one can say Lucas is categorically wrong, because the film he envisioned doesn't exist.)

Yeah I've always thought Empire was too slow and thought that's been a pretty common criticism for my entire lifetime -- which is well after the film was released mind you.  Hell, at least two of the funniest jokes in Family Guy's parody of it are based on that.  I don't care either way if Lucas held resentment of how highly thought of Empire was comparatively (and yeah, even if it was slow, it's still clearly better than ROTJ), but I find it funny such a criticism has to be qualified so much.  It's not like Empire is Godfather II.  

[Darryk]

ANH also has some slow parts though. As a kid I used to think ANH was the slowest and ROTJ the most fun.

I find with with people who've never seen Star Wars before ANH is usually the hardest one for them to get through. Ironically ROTJ is the most noob-friendly.

[Myrddin]

4 hours ago, Darryk said:

Guess I'm saying Gary Kurtz was a mixed bag, but ultimately it was good for Lucas to not be surrounded by yes men.

/Rick Maccallum has entered the chat

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

7 hours ago, Werthead said:

In that ballpark, if not larger. I believe The Mandalorian was around $15 million per episode, which is on a par with GoT in Seasons 7-8 (or less, due to inflation). Obi-Wan might be more, though, as an "event" series.

Stranger Things and the MCU shows are around $25-30 million (which I suspect is closer to the real budget of The Rings of Power as well) per episode.

Yeah but GoT had an enormous cast and multiple production units filming on multiple continents. And whatever the criticisms of that show, you cannot fault the production values. And there hasn't been that much inflation. If anything, CGI costs should have come down in recent years.

You could also say the same thing about Stranger Things. They film most of the show in Georgia (the state, not the country), but they also film in California and New Mexico. The Russian prison stuff was shot in Lithuania apparently.

And the production values are incredible. The stuff they have to come up with to re-create the '80's scenery are staggering. Can you even buy Trapper Keepers anymore? The prop department is definitely earning their money on that show. 

Where the hell do you even find a mint condition 1980's Chevrolet Caprice wood panel station wagon or a Ford Pinto? Madness. I assume some of the vehicles are CGI; but it's interesting that you don't see any Ford Escorts, Chevrolet Chevettes, Dodge Omnis or Dodge Aries/Plymouth Horizons; which were ubiquitous by the mid '80's but almost none survive today. I have yet to see a Mid-80's fox body mustang or Mustang II, which also would have been everywhere at that time. Cudos on the Le Baron convertible in the S3 shopping mall scenes.

Like I said, the production values seem a bit low on Kenobi. I have yet to see any of the MCU D+ stuff. 

I have yet to see Rings of Power (obviously) but the photos I've seen so far suggest Amazon is spending their money effectively. I just hope it's good. Not that I have much invested in the LotR franchise; I just don't like some of the negative energy surrounding this show. The idiots can at least wait 'till the thing comes out before they shit all over it. 

[Lord of Rhinos]

This show makes me laugh. Tala trying to get past the chief of security. Was there really no one on hand to point out that a commanding officer is not the same thing as a higher ranked officer? Jeez.

Reva telling Tala that she knew there had to be a traitor because Obi-Wan couldn't get passed the laser gate by himself.  I laughed hard.

[Jaxom 1974]

When Third Sister is interrogating Leia about the location of the Path...I really wanted Leia to declare the Path was, "on Dantooine..."

[Kalbear]

It would be hilarious if the organas just fucking hated dantooine and blamed it every single time they could. Just constant shitting all over dantooine to such an extent that 10 year old Leia knows that is who to blurt out.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

When Third Sister is interrogating Leia about the location of the Path...I really wanted Leia to declare the Path was, "on Dantooine..."

I'd have liked it if the (or a) base in Rogue One had been on Dantooine...

14 hours ago, Darryk said:

ANH also has some slow parts though. As a kid I used to think ANH was the slowest and ROTJ the most fun.

I find with with people who've never seen Star Wars before ANH is usually the hardest one for them to get through. Ironically ROTJ is the most noob-friendly.

As a movie, I can barely watch ANH these days, and that's mostly due to its slow pacing and the complete lack of suspense after Ben's death. The whole Death Star thingy really doesn't grab you when you know how it is going to turn out. Compared to that, ROTJ is really great due to the personal element in the confrontation with Vader and the Emperor.

As for the earlier talk - what I know about those outlines for multiple trilogies:

They don't seem to have had that compelling a story. It would have been great if Luke had had a sister who wasn't Leia, of course, and it would have also been great to see this character introduced and Leia and Luke developed some more.

But in the end ROTJ works pretty fine as a conclusion. I'd have preferred it if the setting had been on Imperial Center/Coruscant with the moon actually being 'the Sanctuary Moon' Palpatine actually mentions at one point in the movie, but I really don't mind the Ewoks. The crucial point/plot of the movie never was that some toy bears kill a bunch of stormtroopers ... it was that another Death Star was destroyed, and Vader and the Emperor went with it.

If the Empire was defeated in that movie - and it wasn't, according to the silly ST - then it was because of what Luke accomplished on the Death Star, and not what happened down on the moon.

[Rubicante]

Does anyone think Jar Jar Binks is one of the unnamed inquisitors?  He did after all result in Palpatine receiving emergency powers, and brought in the clone army.  Vader and Palpatine must feel like they owe him.

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Just now, Rubicante said:

Does anyone think Jar Jar Binks is one of the unnamed inquisitors?  He did after all result in Palpatine receiving emergency powers, and brought in the clone army.  Vader and Palpatine must feel like they owe him.

 

Totally.

Oh, and has Mace Windu made an appearance yet? I only asked because the, "Mace survived RotS" talk has died down considerably in recent months. I was worried I might have missed him.