Star Wars: Nothing But Star Wars

[JGP]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, I do not want to write books at anyone, really. I might use some postings as hooks and stuff, but don't feel, well, talked at because of that. I just like to write about this stuff occasionally.

All good, yo. I tease, I jest. 

 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They talk about hyperwave communication there. Don't know what it is, don't care. It is clear that it is instantaneous magical communiction.

Hyperwave, waveform, quantum superposition, yeah, one could fiddle with that. Thanks.

[DMC]

52 minutes ago, felice said:

I think incorporating an explanation of that into the script would have been very tricky to pull off, but it fits what we see.

It'd also fit Han and Leia being so fucked up when they arrive on Bespin.

[DMC]

Also, gotta say this argument about hyperspace travel sounds a lot like complaining about fuel tanks commonly causing huge explosions with only one bullet.  It's a goddamn movie/TV show.

[Rubicante]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Also, gotta say this argument about hyperspace travel sounds a lot like complaining about fuel tanks commonly causing huge explosions with only one bullet.  It's a goddamn movie/TV show.

Yep.  What annoys me though is that the OT is treated like this masterpiece with absolutely no plot problems (where people CAN view them as a movie), yet anything else Star Wars is so insanely criticized that even the smallest problem makes the movies or shows “unwatchable.”

Let’s go back to Episode 4.  So after the Falcon escapes the Death Star and destroys the 4 TIE Fighters, Princess Leia makes note that they were allowed to escape, and are being tracked.  So instead of trying to figure HOW they are being tracked, and removing the tracking device, they instead go to the hidden Rebel base.  You know, the same Rebel base that Leia was willing to allow Alderaan to be destroyed in order to have kept hidden.

And then the Death Star, despite being able to travel at light speed across the galaxy, for some reason can’t just move to a position around Yavin where the base can be destroyed instantly, instead of having to wait 30 minutes.

Back then, and even now, our nostalgia prevents us from criticizing the OT because we recognize it’s just a movie.  Now people, including myself, just like to shit all over everything.

EDIT: And again, for those who accuse me of being a prequel/Disney defender, I’ve already stated that AOTC, TLJ and TROS are all awful Star Wars movies.  I like TPM and ROTS despite their flaws (which there are tons of them).  But I can enjoy them as just movies.

[felice]

1 hour ago, Rubicante said:

Let’s go back to Episode 4.  So after the Falcon escapes the Death Star and destroys the 4 TIE Fighters, Princess Leia makes note that they were allowed to escape, and are being tracked.  So instead of trying to figure HOW they are being tracked, and removing the tracking device, they instead go to the hidden Rebel base.

If they land on some other planet to search for the tracking device (it's reasonable to assume it's somewhere only accessible from outside the ship, to stop it being found in flight), there's a good chance the Death Star shows up while they're still looking, another innocent planet gets blown up, and the Rebels never get the Death Star plans. If they abandon the Falcon for another ship, the innocent planet is still at risk of destruction, and the new ship is at risk of being identified and shot down before they can get away. The Empire must have recon ships following close behind. Going straight to the Rebel base has obvious downsides, but it's the least bad option.

1 hour ago, Rubicante said:

And then the Death Star, despite being able to travel at light speed across the galaxy, for some reason can’t just move to a position around Yavin where the base can be destroyed instantly, instead of having to wait 30 minutes.

It seems reasonable to assume that a hyperspace jump for something that size is a big deal, and maybe less accurate than smaller ships. It's less trouble to wait half an hour than do a second jump. After all, it's not like the moon of Yavin is going anywhere!

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Rubicante said:

Yep.  What annoys me though is that the OT is treated like this masterpiece with absolutely no plot problems (where people CAN view them as a movie), yet anything else Star Wars is so insanely criticized that even the smallest problem makes the movies or shows “unwatchable.”

Let’s go back to Episode 4.  So after the Falcon escapes the Death Star and destroys the 4 TIE Fighters, Princess Leia makes note that they were allowed to escape, and are being tracked.  So instead of trying to figure HOW they are being tracked, and removing the tracking device, they instead go to the hidden Rebel base.  You know, the same Rebel base that Leia was willing to allow Alderaan to be destroyed in order to have kept hidden.

And then the Death Star, despite being able to travel at light speed across the galaxy, for some reason can’t just move to a position around Yavin where the base can be destroyed instantly, instead of having to wait 30 minutes.

Back then, and even now, our nostalgia prevents us from criticizing the OT because we recognize it’s just a movie.  Now people, including myself, just like to shit all over everything.

EDIT: And again, for those who accuse me of being a prequel/Disney defender, I’ve already stated that AOTC, TLJ and TROS are all awful Star Wars movies.  I like TPM and ROTS despite their flaws (which there are tons of them).  But I can enjoy them as just movies.

hmm, seems others agree with you.

The original HISHE Ep4. video.

And the updated one.  

[mormont]

6 hours ago, JGP said:

If you want to get really dicky about it [and don't mind if I do] I never caught an explanation about how interstellar communication works. It'd have to be something like Card's ansible for instantaneous interaction with hologram projections from Revan knows where or how far, yet it's not a big deal to me.

Le Guin invented the ansible. Hate to nitpick but I don't want Card getting the credit for a better writer.

[Ran]

2 hours ago, felice said:

It seems reasonable to assume that a hyperspace jump for something that size is a big deal, and maybe less accurate than smaller ships. It's less trouble to wait half an hour than do a second jump. After all, it's not like the moon of Yavin is going anywhere!

Also, at the time of the OT, the idea seemed to be that you couldn't jump too close out of or into gravity wells for safety reasons and so safety systems were built in to prevent that unnecessarily, including making jump calculations that get you to arrive outside of some distance from the gravity well. A massive station like the Death Star moves slowly in real space, so it would take time for it to go from the safe arrival distance from the gravity well and move into position to fire. They certainly wouldn't risk the safety of the station to get in closer. (George Lucas himself appears to be the source of the gravity wells and safety systems business, per Pablo Hidalgo.)

Good point that the Death Star would likely blast more planets if it had to hunt around for the base. By going straight to it, Leia gets the full plans to the rebels so they have a chance of exploiting the weakness, while luring the Death Star directly to them protects other planets and also lets them actually ready for an attack. Imagine if it started hopping around the galaxy, how would they ever hope to come to grips with it with any kind of force? That's why in RotJ the incomplete Death Star was the right time to target it not just because they (wrongly) believed the laser was not yet in operation but because they knew it was stuck in orbit over Endor and they could get a fleet together to attack it before it started moving around to crush the Rebellion.

 

[Werthead]

Quote

Then, of course, Star Wars never properly established how fast their ships go, nor were distances ever a factor when telling a story. The worldbuilding doesn't make sense on that level - just as it doesn't make sense in Star Trek.

To be fair, Star Trek very firmly established speed limits on the ship in the TNG era and stuck to them fairly rigidly right through the end of Enterprise. It was more a problem in TOS (before they'd settled on the rules) and in Star Trek V (where Shatner didn't give a shit) and in the Abrams movies, where Abrams giggled at the idea of respecting any kind of rational logic or sense and just did what he wanted. Discovery gets around the speed limit with its instant-jump drive.

[Myrddin]

7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

hmm, seems others agree with you.

The original HISHE Ep4. video.

And the updated one.  

They should update the Luke/Ben scene in light of the new show.

Ben: Well, that's convenient. Princess Leia is also your twin sister. I helped her escape an inquisitor's plot some years back. Which reminds me, I have gone by the name "Obi-wan Kenobi" since before you were born. Everyone in that rebel cell group knew it. Oh and everyone on that planet that sent out a system-wide broadcast about a bounty on my head. Those were the days.

[Corvinus85]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

Also, at the time of the OT, the idea seemed to be that you couldn't jump too close out of or into gravity wells for safety reasons and so safety systems were built in to prevent that unnecessarily, including making jump calculations that get you to arrive outside of some distance from the gravity well. A massive station like the Death Star moves slowly in real space, so it would take time for it to go from the safe arrival distance from the gravity well and move into position to fire. They certainly wouldn't risk the safety of the station to get in closer. (George Lucas himself appears to be the source of the gravity wells and safety systems business, per Pablo Hidalgo.)

Good point that the Death Star would likely blast more planets if it had to hunt around for the base. By going straight to it, Leia gets the full plans to the rebels so they have a chance of exploiting the weakness, while luring the Death Star directly to them protects other planets and also lets them actually ready for an attack. Imagine if it started hopping around the galaxy, how would they ever hope to come to grips with it with any kind of force? That's why in RotJ the incomplete Death Star was the right time to target it not just because they (wrongly) believed the laser was not yet in operation but because they knew it was stuck in orbit over Endor and they could get a fleet together to attack it before it started moving around to crush the Rebellion.

 

Besides, the battle at Yavin was in fact quite short. It wouldn't have taken the DS that long to complete its orbit entry, but it was just long enough for the rebel forces to pull off what was essentially a miracle. I also don't think long range transmissions of extensive plans was possible, at least in Lucas's mind, at the time.  

[Derfel Cadarn]

17 hours ago, Werthead said:

Like I said, in ESB an Imperial officer in an official capacity calmly states it's possible for a ship to be on the other side of the galaxy to where it was earlier on, in a short enough period of time that Threepio is still going apeshit over Han's insane maneuver, which is, even given Threepio's tendency for histrionics, probably going to be minutes rather than hours. The Falcon is supposedly one of the fastest ships in the galaxy with an overpowered hyperdrive, so it might be unusually fast, but it still implies that FTL travel in Star Wars is ludicrously fast. This is something that the EU pushed back on a bit (with it sometimes taking days to get anywhere, maybe weeks to go from one end of the galaxy to the other) but since the Disney canon took over, if anything, travel has even gotten faster.

Maybe its like travelling by road - you go longg disrance by motorway, very fast and direct. But going short distances can take as long if you’re stuck on snall crappy roads. 
so maybe once you slow down to exit, thats what takes the time as the nav computer makes sure you hit the exit point.

[JGP]

7 hours ago, mormont said:

Le Guin invented the ansible. Hate to nitpick but I don't want Card getting the credit for a better writer.

Not nitpicky at all, I appreciate the correction. What the hell, Card. 

[mormont]

It's a widely used term by this time, to be fair. But Ursula invented it. 

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, DMC said:

Also, gotta say this argument about hyperspace travel sounds a lot like complaining about fuel tanks commonly causing huge explosions with only one bullet.  It's a goddamn movie/TV show.

Well, honestly, I certainly get annoyed when cars just explode in (old) movies when they fall into an abyss or something along those lines. It is just silly.

10 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Let’s go back to Episode 4.  So after the Falcon escapes the Death Star and destroys the 4 TIE Fighters, Princess Leia makes note that they were allowed to escape, and are being tracked.  So instead of trying to figure HOW they are being tracked, and removing the tracking device, they instead go to the hidden Rebel base.  You know, the same Rebel base that Leia was willing to allow Alderaan to be destroyed in order to have kept hidden.

Never thought about that before, but that certainly is an issue - although I always assumed that it was all but impossible for them to actually find the tracker.

10 hours ago, Rubicante said:

And then the Death Star, despite being able to travel at light speed across the galaxy, for some reason can’t just move to a position around Yavin where the base can be destroyed instantly, instead of having to wait 30 minutes.

That actually does make sense, I think, since it might be rather difficult for the Death Star to jump and Yavin 4 being the moon of a gas giant could give them further complications. They may have jumped into the orbit of the planet Yavin, but Yavin 4 may have been on the other side and they may not be able to calculate another jump ... or it might take them even longer than getting in range in the conventional way.

9 hours ago, felice said:

If they land on some other planet to search for the tracking device (it's reasonable to assume it's somewhere only accessible from outside the ship, to stop it being found in flight), there's a good chance the Death Star shows up while they're still looking, another innocent planet gets blown up, and the Rebels never get the Death Star plans. If they abandon the Falcon for another ship, the innocent planet is still at risk of destruction, and the new ship is at risk of being identified and shot down before they can get away. The Empire must have recon ships following close behind. Going straight to the Rebel base has obvious downsides, but it's the least bad option.

That's not a good explanation since they could land on an uninhabited planet or have a rendezvous with another ship in space. There is no indication that they have recon ships directly behind them.

LOL, and now that I'm thinking about it - as per the opening crawl Leia's ship received the plans via transmission, so they could have just transmitted the plans to another ship so that some other ship would bring them to Yavin 4 while they draw the Death Star away and figure out a way to go underground by swapping ships, etc.

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

To be fair, Star Trek very firmly established speed limits on the ship in the TNG era and stuck to them fairly rigidly right through the end of Enterprise. It was more a problem in TOS (before they'd settled on the rules) and in Star Trek V (where Shatner didn't give a shit) and in the Abrams movies, where Abrams giggled at the idea of respecting any kind of rational logic or sense and just did what he wanted. Discovery gets around the speed limit with its instant-jump drive.

I didn't mean speed limits so much (TOS had them, too, the scale just went from Warp 1 to Warp 15, I think, so it was actually stupid to limit it to Warp 9 in TNG) but the ship jumping around from place to place depending what the episode is about. Supposedly, the Enterprise is always on a five year mission to explore strange new worlds and stuff ... and then they pay a visit to Earth (!!!), Vulcan (!!!) or some other place the Federation has colonies or Star Bases or whatever.

You could never possibly try to draw the ship's journey on a map of the Milky Way galaxy and the line make sense.

The only shows where this kind of thing was kind of respected was Voyager (I guess) and Enterprise (and to a lesser degree DS9 where it was firmly established what planets were close by and which were very far away).

Star Wars is pretty much the same since nobody cares where the hell Kamino and Mustafar are in relation to Coruscant nor how long it would take a given ship to reach those places compared to the journey to other worlds.

[Ran]

Card was the first of many to homage Le Guin by using the term, according to the SF Encyclopedia.

[Rubicante]

10 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

hmm, seems others agree with you.

The original HISHE Ep4. video.

And the updated one.  

Lmao!  This is brilliant!

I agree with Lord Varys above.  The plans could have been transmitted to a different ship without giving the location of the Rebel base away.  

As for the Death Star jumping in around Yavin, even if they were on the side of Yavin opposite of the Rebel base, why not just destroy the gas giant?  Surely that explosion would take out a small moon.  And I won’t buy the explanation “The Death Star can’t destroy a gas giant”.  Surely firing at the middle of the gas giant would be enough to do something that would lead to it’s destruction.

Almost everything Obi-Wan says to Luke regarding either his or Anakin’s past doesn’t make any sense.  This started with the Vader reveal in TESB, made worse by Lucas’ inability to tie things together in ROTS, and the Obi-Wan show now adds to this as well.  
 

Nonetheless, I still like ANH, ROTS, and the Obi-Wan series (part 4 excluded).

[mormont]

For me, the Obi-Wan series goes in that category where I don't feel like I wasted my time watching it (I'm looking at you, Rise of Skywalker) but I know I'll probably never watch it again.

[Caligula_K3]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

For me, the Obi-Wan series goes in that category where I don't feel like I wasted my time watching it (I'm looking at you, Rise of Skywalker) but I know I'll probably never watch it again.

Agreed. Overall it was at least entertaining. And I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I respected that it was at least trying for something coherent and had a purpose, unlike Mandalorian season 2. That just felt like a mish-mash of cameos and pilots for spinoffs.

[Ran]

3 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Lmao!  This is brilliant!

I agree with Lord Varys above.  The plans could have been transmitted to a different ship without giving the location of the Rebel base away.  

The problem with "just transmit it" is that space is way big and the Millenium Falcon is not a Rebel ship. To whom exactly are they going to transmit anything?  Especially given that there's no evidence that the Millenium Falcon is capable of transmitting anything outside of its local system, at least at the time of A New Hope. So they'd have to travel to some hotbed of Rebel activity so that Leia could find someone who'd carry the message on to Yavin, right? Leading the Death Star right to this hotbed of activity just to protect the Rebel base while rising the lives of the people there. The reason Leia's corvette was able to receive the transmisssion is... well, Rogue One explains that it was in local space where the transmission was beamed up, whereas in the EU the Tantive IV was deliberately part of a mission to recieve the transmission (again, happening in local space).

Later things like the Holonet and hyperspace relays are introduced, but nothing says that a tramp freighter being hunted by the Empire would be able to access these things safely at that time, or at all.

3 hours ago, Rubicante said:

As for the Death Star jumping in around Yavin, even if they were on the side of Yavin opposite of the Rebel base, why not just destroy the gas giant?  Surely that explosion would take out a small moon.  And I won’t buy the explanation “The Death Star can’t destroy a gas giant”.  Surely firing at the middle of the gas giant would be enough to do something that would lead to it’s destruction.

Why assume that it can other than to hang by the fingernails to your insistence that there's some sort of error here? A gas giant is many, many times larger than an Earth-like planet. Its atmosphere is much thicker and may in itself diffuse the laser such that it has minimal effect beyond heating up some limited area. Or something.

What we can say is that A New Hope, as the first film, sets the first  rules of the setting. It doesn't have to abide by our physics, it doesn't have to abide by anyone's head canon. One of these rules appears to be that the Death Star can't do anything useful to a gas giant, and the Death Star can't just jump past a gas giant to be immediately in range of its moon. 

The whole issue is how the various projects adhere to the rules -- the world-building -- of what came before. There's a general sense that the new stuff takes a lot more liberties than the original trilogy did with its original world-building, and I think that's really quite true, at least as it concerns the sequel trilogy.