International Events IX: I feel like a mushroom

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

But Sanders isn’t a Tankie offering apologia for the Russian dictator like Lula.

I think you're a little hung up on the "tankie" thing.  Lula has far more experience on the international stage forging compromises during his first presidency than Sanders could ever hope for.

[Winterfell is Burning]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Corruption and scandals aside, Lula is rather objectively more leftist than Biden - particularly his current campaign.  A better analogy, if we have to make one, would be Trump v Sanders.

Heh, depends on what you mean. Most Brazilian politicians are more left-wing than Sanders in economic issues, because historically the state has had partial or total control of nearly all key sectors of the economy, so economic liberalism is a relatively new idea. Bolsonaro himself when Fernando Henrique Cardoso privatized some companies called for him to be sent to a firing squad (yes, really).

Mind you, Brazil today has around 135 state-owned companies just by the federal government, and more than 400 if you count owned by states and municipalities. Not even the most left-winger member of the Democratic Party would support the US government having 20% of that.

Ironically, Bolsonaro himself not only didn't privatized a public-owned company, he actually created a new one and called privatization supporters rats when speaking to workers of one of them.  His Economy minister toyed with the idea of selling some many times, but that was probably more to appease markets than something Bolsonaro himself wants. 

Meanwhile, in social issues, Lula is mostly conservative for American standards- he never expressed support for gay marriage or did anything about it (it was approved by the SC in 2011 in a 9-2 decision, with the two dissents by judges he appointed), and while he mentioned supporting abortion rights in the past, he didn't do anything about it and in this election he backtracked, saying he's against.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Most Brazilian politicians are more left-wing than Sanders in economic issues, because historically the state has had partial or total control of nearly all key sectors of the economy, so economic liberalism is a relatively new idea.

Yes, of course, I meant identifying a more socialist-oriented politician with more of a cult-like following - that's also been around/ran for president for decades.

[Darzin]

20 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Isn’t Lula offering apologia for Putin like a good Tankie?

You know Tankie is a word to refer to Marxist-Leninists right?  You can't just call everyone who refuses to condemn Russia one. Also this isn't that out of step with many countries especially in the global south. So yeah it's not great but it's kind of expected. A lot of people in South America and Africa especially left leaning ones view this as a bloody nose for the Yankee imperialists. 

[Winterfell is Burning]

2 hours ago, Darzin said:

You know Tankie is a word to refer to Marxist-Leninists right?  You can't just call everyone who refuses to condemn Russia one. Also this isn't that out of step with many countries especially in the global south. So yeah it's not great but it's kind of expected. A lot of people in South America and Africa especially left leaning ones view this as a bloody nose for the Yankee imperialists. 

Well, Lula's party (PT) was created as a Marxist-Leninist party that only moved away from it after it was clear he would never win an election with that platform, and the party still clearly contains some elements of it, so it's far from being unfair call him a tankie (although since then the term hasn't been exclusively being used to Marxists anymore)

Plus, he's hardly the only anti-American dictator Lula has praised, including Maduro, Noriega and even Gaddafi (the latter of whom, according to his former Economy minister and Dilma Rousseff's chief of staff, gave a 1 million dollar contribution to his 2002 campaign)

[DMC]

24 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

including Maduro

When he was elected in 2002, the US foreign policy establishment was worried he was gonna be too close to Chavez.  Which, he pretty much did, but he also managed to maintain good relations with both Dubya and Obama during his tenure.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Anyway, polls are closed, though due to delays, people are still voting. The tallying already started, but too soon to have a clear idea on how things are going to go.

One thing I just saw a pundit on TV commenting and that I also noticed is that how few people with T-shirts, hats, banners, etc, of candidates I saw on the streets. Barely anyone, and absolutely no one for governors, senators, etc. It's a mix of fear of violence and of people's genuine disgust for the main candidates, I think.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Darzin said:

You know Tankie is a word to refer to Marxist-Leninists right?  You can't just call everyone who refuses to condemn Russia one. Also this isn't that out of step with many countries especially in the global south. So yeah it's not great but it's kind of expected. A lot of people in South America and Africa especially left leaning ones view this as a bloody nose for the Yankee imperialists. 

Sadly for them, it's the Russian imperialists who've received the bloody nose.

[Conflicting Thought]

On 10/1/2022 at 4:40 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Isn’t Lula offering apologia for Putin like a good Tankie?

lula is not a tankie, what do you think a tankie is?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

20 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

lula is not a tankie, what do you think a tankie is?

Leftists who offer apologia for the then Soviet Union and now Russia…

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 hours ago, Darzin said:

You know Tankie is a word to refer to Marxist-Leninists right?  You can't just call everyone who refuses to condemn Russia one. Also this isn't that out of step with many countries especially in the global south. So yeah it's not great but it's kind of expected. A lot of people in South America and Africa especially left leaning ones view this as a bloody nose for the Yankee imperialists. 

As I said above “Tankies” are Leftists who offer apologia for the then Soviet Union and now Russia.  How is Lula not offering apologia for the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

As I said above “Tankies” are Leftists who offer apologia for the then Soviet Union and now Russia.  How is Lula not offering apologia for the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

This is a very rudimentary and Cold War version of the term.  As far as I can tell he hedged, which is a pretty wise thing to do considering his position - and particularly the position he seeks.  All politics are local, Scot.

[The Anti-Targ]

4 hours ago, Darzin said:

You know Tankie is a word to refer to Marxist-Leninists right?  You can't just call everyone who refuses to condemn Russia one. Also this isn't that out of step with many countries especially in the global south. So yeah it's not great but it's kind of expected. A lot of people in South America and Africa especially left leaning ones view this as a bloody nose for the Yankee imperialists. 

They are clearly not keeping up with the news if they still think this is a bloody nose for the USA. I'm sure the western military-industrial complex is very much enjoying this war.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

This is a very rudimentary and Cold War version of the term.  As far as I can tell he hedged, which is a pretty wise thing to do considering his position - and particularly the position he seeks.  All politics are local, Scot.

What did Ukraine do to cause the the Russian invasion as Lula suggested?

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What did Ukraine do to cause the the Russian invasion as Lula suggested?

Nothing.  The fuck does that have to do with what I said?

[Winterfell is Burning]

With around 28% of the votes counted, not only Lula is not winning in the first round as most polls predicted, (though that was in the margin of error), but Bolsonaro is actually leading by about 47% to 43%.

While a decent part of it is that simply some areas where Bolsonaro was expected to perform better anyway being counted first, by the looks of it there was a MASSIVE underestimation of his voting in São Paulo, which is by far the largest state (it has 46 million people)- basically, most polls predicted Lula to win there by about 5-7% (which always seemed unrealistic to me), but with about 20% of the tally, Bolsonaro s winning 51% to 37%.

He's doing so well there his candidate for governor, a guy who never ran for office and never even lived there- gave as address his sister-in-law's residence, didn't even know where his polling place was- is actually a threat to win in the first round as governor (polls also underestimated him a lot).

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

Nothing.  The fuck does that have to do with what I said?

Lula claiming both Ukraine and Russia bear responsibility for the war in Ukraine.  It is BS apologia for Putin from Lula.  I hope he beats Bolsonaro… but Lula has issues.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Lula claiming both Ukraine and Russia bear responsibility for the war in Ukraine.  It is BS apologia for Putin from Lula.

Again, it's hedging, and it's very understandable hedging from his position.  Not everyone is going to agree with you 100% of the way 100% of the time, and it's quite naive of you to think someone in his position would.  That doesn't mean you should label them in such reductionist fashion.

[Winterfell is Burning]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Again, it's hedging, and it's very understandable hedging from his position.  Not everyone is going to agree with you 100% of the way 100% of the time, and it's quite naive of you to think someone in his position would.  That doesn't mean you should label them in such reductionist fashion.

It's not hedging, he also said Zelensky was more worried about appearing on TV and that he wanted the war. He even compared him to Saddam Hussein, saying it was similar to US' invasion of Iraq, in which Saddam also had a big part of the blame. If you're comparing Zelensky to Saddam Hussein, you're a Putin apologist.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

He even compared him to Saddam Hussein, saying it was similar to US' invasion of Iraq, in which Saddam also had a big part of the blame.

I mean..Saddam did have a big part of the blame in the US invasion -- even though the US was primarily to blame.  Hell, that comparison sounds like he's primarily blaming Russia.  Anyway, your dislike towards Lula is rather apparent.