Jon Snow: The Bastard Returns

[Kalbear]

 

9 minutes ago, IFR said:

When The Wire came out, there was nothing like it. Same for Deadwood, Rome and Game of Thrones. HBO seems to now be relying on very familiar content, instead of paving their own path.

Oh fuck that noise. The Wire was heavily based on Simon's experiences, which had been originally adapted as Homicide and that ran successfully for multiple seasons. Deadwood I'll grant you - that was pretty remarkably different. 

As to relying on very familiar content - Peacemaker is pretty unique. Made for Love was very unique. Raised by Wolves was incredibly fucked up. Our Flag Means Death, Euphoria, Doom Patrol, Barry, Hacks, Insecure, Succession, Veep...I just am going mostly off my head here. HBO has had a lot of shows that they've tried with fairly high concepts and not exactly dumb big action. Hell, ya'll are forgetting things like Watchmen, which was considered one of the best shows EVER recently. 

[Werthead]

The Boys is also very successful and stepping on a ton of toes with its alt-right, neo-Nazi-baiting storylines in both the second and third seasons.

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Who exactly is Succession stepping on the toes of? 

Succession is based, and not tremendously subtly, on Murdoch and his family, and I believe started as a direct biopic movie script which they got the writer to rework into a slightly less obvious riff on them.

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Oh fuck that noise. The Wire was heavily based on Simon's experiences, which had been originally adapted as Homicide and that ran successfully for multiple seasons. Deadwood I'll grant you - that was pretty remarkably different. 

The Corner was also something of a dry run for The Wire, with some of the same actors.

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It's also a bit weird because as I understand it The Wire barely got renewed each season (until it didn't) because like the head HBO guy liked it. It wasn't successful at all then, and that it even got a second season was kinda a fluke.

The Wire barely scraped the line, although it was also somewhat more expensive than people realised. By Season 3 it was costing $50 million a season, which isn't much by today's standards but it certainly was in 2002-04, and I suspect HBO thought it was too expensive given it was filmed mostly on location and didn't require a ton of sets and costumes.

[Darryk]

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

Who exactly is Succession stepping on the toes of? 

Well I'm still not sure what Burns meant by "Now, it’s got to be ‘Game of Thrones.’ It’s got to be big. It’s got to be disconnected from stepping on anybody’s toes," who is the "anybody" he's referring to and why does he think a series needs to do that in order to be special in the way The Wire was?

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Well I'm still not sure what Burns meant by "Now, it’s got to be ‘Game of Thrones.’ It’s got to be big. It’s got to be disconnected from stepping on anybody’s toes," who is the "anybody" he's referring to and why does he think a series needs to do that in order to be special in the way The Wire was?

Ed Burns is much more interested in mimetic shows, shows dealing with the here and now and the confluence of politics, society, crime, etc. The Wire pointed out flaws in the police, the press, the city government of Baltimore and the federal government. So I think that's the kind of toes he wants shows to step on, that they have something to say about today. Outside of helping Simon with The Plot Against America, his shows are The Corner, The Wire, Generation Kill, and We Own This City -- three shows about crime and corruption in Baltimore, and one about the follies of the Iraq War and the grunts who tried to survive them.

15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Succession is based, and not tremendously subtly, on Murdoch and his family, and I believe started as a direct biopic movie script which they got the writer to rework into a slightly less obvious riff on them.

Yeah, it'd be stepping on toes if it was, indeed, about the Murdochs. It's not, and near as I can tell I've never heard a peep about the Murdochs being annoyed by it. (Actually, Google tells me Elisabeth Murdoch and her husband watch the show and mostly enjoy it.)

 

[Zorral]

37 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

HBO has had a lot of shows that they've tried with fairly high concepts and not exactly dumb big action.

And right now it's got Irma Vep, which is -- so far -- 3 episode in -- quite terrific.  It has a terrific cast, just starting with Alicia Vikander -- also from Ex Machina and Tomb Raider! as well as The Green Knight. and much else.

[Kalbear]

Honestly, I think if anything what's happened is that more streaming services have taken the HBO model to heart. Netflix is still largely the exception with flooding the zone with bullshit, but Hulu, Amazon, Paramount, Apple are all going heavily for high-prestige shows with occasional swings for the fences on very complicated shows. Even Disney is a bit in the mix there depending on how you rank it, with their 'safe' shows still being fairly heavyweight at times (Star Wars definitely excluded). 

It makes it a bit harder for HBO to stand out, but HBO basically won. 

[Zorral]

Paramount is commissioning/licensing shows in Europe etc. for their international streaming market.  They are all in the streaming thing.

As who can, as is everyone else.  (See? Corps are persons!  I just used a human pronoun for this bundle of corps!  )

International, I guess, is the only way to get out from under the hideous suffocation from superhero comix garbage, which, like kudzu, utterly fills All the Screens. 

[IFR]

2 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

 

Oh fuck that noise. The Wire was heavily based on Simon's experiences, which had been originally adapted as Homicide and that ran successfully for multiple seasons. Deadwood I'll grant you - that was pretty remarkably different. 

As to relying on very familiar content - Peacemaker is pretty unique. Made for Love was very unique. Raised by Wolves was incredibly fucked up. Our Flag Means Death, Euphoria, Doom Patrol, Barry, Hacks, Insecure, Succession, Veep...I just am going mostly off my head here. HBO has had a lot of shows that they've tried with fairly high concepts and not exactly dumb big action. Hell, ya'll are forgetting things like Watchmen, which was considered one of the best shows EVER recently. 

These are shows that have come out. And I would argue against the notion that many of those meet the standard of being both original and good. 

Looking at shows that are currently being developed for the future paints something far less picturesque.

Time will tell. I suspect that a few years from now we'll look back and wonder where HBO went wrong.

Edit: I absolutely agree with you on Watchmen. While its production was ethically dubious, the show itself was fantastic.

[Rubicante]

Honestly, I could care less about this show.  Same with the Dragon one.  I’m not watching any of these shows until The Winds of Winter comes out.  Unfortunately, this means I will probably never watch these shows (or based on the stinking pile of horse crap seasons 6-8 of GoT were, I won’t be missing much).

Although it might be worth watching them just to hear Linda insult the shows…

 

[dbunting]

The mere possibility of a GOT spin off set after the show gets 5 pages this fast! Passionate group we are.

I will watch it and probably enjoy it. If it sucks, oh well. It's not some sacred thing that isn't exploitable. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

It makes it a bit harder for HBO to stand out, but HBO basically won. 

This. HBO's catalog, even if it's not the biggest, is the best and HBO is synonymous with excellent content. Their documentaries alone are better than what some services have put out, and if ranking the ten best shows of modern times a disproportionate amount will come from HBO.

26 minutes ago, dbunting said:

It's not some sacred thing that isn't exploitable. 

 Also this. I'm not as hard on the show as some superfans, but I think it's clear based on how the quality of the show dipped over time that it's not untouchable. Is a Jon Snow spinoff what I most want from this universe? No, but it could still be entertaining. 

[DMC]

I feel like there is an underlying political element to this discussion that leads to people talking about different things.  "Not stepping on anyone's toes" can be taken in a lot of ways, and these days it's fairly common to suspect that means not being PC or woke or whatever.  In that regard I'd agree it's mostly bullshit - I don't think HBO is worried about "stepping on anyone's toes" in that way, at least within reason.  OTOH, if we're talking about things like taking more bold chances, affording showrunners more freedom, and actually trying to live up to the "it's not TV it's HBO" tagline, then yeah, I think comparatively they are a more cautious and profit-driven enterprise.  Such is life with new ownership.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Apple+ with “The Essex Serpent” is pushing hard on issues involving “belief” over “evidence”.  (Tom Hiddleston and Clare Danes).

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Honestly, I could care less about this show.  Same with the Dragon one.  I’m not watching any of these shows until The Winds of Winter comes out.  Unfortunately, this means I will probably never watch these shows (or based on the stinking pile of horse crap seasons 6-8 of GoT were, I won’t be missing much).

Although it might be worth watching them just to hear Linda insult the shows…

 

Yes, I did find Linda’s scathing commentary the one redeeming feature of the last season.

With these spin-offs, HBO remind me of the kind of ex you just want to forget about, but who insists on getting in touch once a year.

I’m guessing that the Jon Snow spin off would be about him having wacky adventures with Tormund, Ghost, and a couple of hot wildling chicks.  Everyone would reassure him he did the right thing in stabbing the foreign whore to death. Tyrion and Bronn would pop up from time to time to share some hilarious banter about brothels.

 

[Ran]

Because House of the Dragon was initially born out of the book we co-wrote with George, we're not going to review it. We'll probably stick to short videos discussing worldbuilding-related matter from episode to episode, or something.

If a Jon Snow sequel happens... I guess Linda might decide to watch it and review it. Like I said, I'm personally entirely uninterested in it at present. If George is credited as a writer on it, or given a story credit, I may tune in.

[Relic]

11 hours ago, Ran said:

Yeah, it'd be stepping on toes if it was, indeed, about the Murdochs. It's not, and near as I can tell I've never heard a peep about the Murdochs being annoyed by it. (Actually, Google tells me Elisabeth Murdoch and her husband watch the show and mostly enjoy it.)

 

Waystar Royco, the show's troubled family business, is a media and entertainment conglomerate with a parks and cruises division and streaming aspirations. Structurally, it is closer to Disney of five years ago than Murdoch's current entities News Corp and Fox Corporation.

And yet the original inspiration for Succession – the ever-twisting story of which child can succeed Murdoch, if any of them, and what it will cost them to try – is hard to forget when watching it. 

 

[Darryk]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Because House of the Dragon was initially born out of the book we co-wrote with George, we're not going to review it. We'll probably stick to short videos discussing worldbuilding-related matter from episode to episode, or something.

If a Jon Snow sequel happens... I guess Linda might decide to watch it and review it. Like I said, I'm personally entirely uninterested in it at present. If George is credited as a writer on it, or given a story credit, I may tune in.

But it's so much more fun when you're both there taking turns slagging it off.

[IFR]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Because House of the Dragon was initially born out of the book we co-wrote with George, we're not going to review it. We'll probably stick to short videos discussing worldbuilding-related matter from episode to episode, or something.

Interesting. Well, good luck with the show and its success!

That kind of puts a twist on things though. I'm pretty frank and caustic when I don't like a show because I know there's almost no chance the creator of the content will read my words. I would feel terrible if I ended up hurting someone's feelings.

That is to say, I hope the show turns out really well, and if there are criticisms, I hope people aren't dicks about it.

[Caligula_K3]

3 hours ago, IFR said:

That is to say, I hope the show turns out really well, and if there are criticisms, I hope people aren't dicks about it.

Haha, good one. On the internet? Where even a mediocre season of TV is always taken as proof that the creators are lazy immoral idiots? I hope so too, but I wouldn't count on it. Some of the ranting against D&D on this board alone is ridiculously over the top, and that's not even getting into fandoms on reddit and other places.

It's a bit of a weird idea for a show, but if this got good reviews and I'm not overwhelmed by new Game of Thrones shows, I'd probably watch it. I'd definitely watch this over an animated show about Yi Ti or whatever. It would be better if it were a mini-series, imo. I can't imagine a full show riding on Kit Harrington's shoulders, and north of the wall is not the most interesting corner of the Game of Thrones universe.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 hours ago, Ran said:

Because House of the Dragon was initially born out of the book we co-wrote with George, we're not going to review it. We'll probably stick to short videos discussing worldbuilding-related matter from episode to episode, or something.

If a Jon Snow sequel happens... I guess Linda might decide to watch it and review it. Like I said, I'm personally entirely uninterested in it at present. If George is credited as a writer on it, or given a story credit, I may tune in.

Do you and Linda get any Story credit?  It’s always cool to see people I know in end credits.