The problem of The Others

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

I’ve said this several times but I envisioned the Others as having always coexisted with humans and the Forest Children who were unfairly scapegoated for the Long Night which began the conflict in the first place. And if I have to guess the Others are returning to their original homelands and to avenge themselves against their human tormentors. I don’t understand why the conflict of the human heart can’t apply to the Others as well.

[WolfgangII]

What do we know about the Others: they like cold; they can raise the death to serve them; they are immune to cuts except if they are from dragonglass, valyrian steel, and fire (who can be related all of them); they kill the people they encounter, maim them and display their bodies in some intricate designs; they collect human babies; they've been since the Long Night.

We presumed, based on some evidence, they're connected to the Children of the Forest, they have some kind of language, they are unnable to cross the Wall, and they lived in the Lands of Always Winter.

They seem emotionless in its cruelty, but that's exactly like the Essosi slavemasters seem in their treatment of the slaves. They seem bent to kill all life, just like the Andals seem to the First Men, and the latter to the Children of the Forest. They don't seem human, but we have also read about some stories of almost humans: like the Men from Ib, and maybe the merlings (and not counting whatever lives in Asshai or Sothoyros).

I don't think the Other will be mindless demons with no other pourpouse than to kill all mankind. It's just that we haven't read it. As I said in another thread, the Others and the Dragons are the two extremes of Planetos, the Ice and Fire of the story. The dragons are "fire made flesh" and probably enginereed. The same could be for the Others.

[alienarea]

Jon Snow could be resurrected by the Others in the books and be out POV with them for a while.

In my opinion the Others are tied to the Starks in some way, and as in the tv show the threat will end at Winterfell.

It won't be Arya killing their leader, but maybe Jon learning about his parentage in the crypts that will end them.

Obviously, things that are a phantastic read might turn out boring on tv, and vice versa. 

Ultimately, Bran might be the big bad. He has the first named chapter, is an innocent boy who gets crippled, and gets superpowers from a tree. Another subverted trope.

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

Ultimately, Bran might be the big bad. He has the first named chapter, is an innocent boy who gets crippled, and gets superpowers from a tree. Another subverted trope.

And yet his wolf is named Summer, and described in terms of light and warmth.

[Black Crow]

Sticking to the books - as distinct from the Mummers version, there is very little information and only two appearances - a group of six in the prologue to AGoT and then the lone individual pinked by Sam in the retreat from the Fist. That's it.

I'm not going to take over this thread by going to lengthy arguments anent the evidence in the books, but if you want to look for a comparison to LOTR, they are not Orcs. They are not a a race, far less forming a formidable army. They are, however, very like Tolkein's Nazgul.

[C.T. Phipps]

The beginning of wisdom is that things aren't always black and white.

The end of wisdom is that sometimes they are.

The trick is telling which from which.

The Others are a fascinating sort of character because they are representing more like a natural disaster like global warming or covid-19 than they are people. They are an oppressive horrifying genocidal force that wants to annihilate humankind. Humanity, however, is so stuck up its own asses that they largely don't even know that the Others exist.

The Others may have motivations.

The Others may have personalities.

But I predict they won't matter because they simply want to kill humanity and there's not really any room for negotiation there.

Martin is also someone who has a lot of one-dimensionally evil people. It actually is part of what tests a lot of his protagonists that people like Ramsay and the Mountain exist.

They just want to watch the world freeze.

[the trees have eyes]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:02 PM, Wolfcrow said:

Others definitely are not the bad guys. We don't know what they want and in general all the problems started when humans became greedy for magic, the blood betrayal and the demons from the east is the same story and the demons came after that.

In this world magic is a part of nature and humans often take advantage of it, the others imo represent the way nature fights back and not the big evil guys. Definitely we will not have fight and a common solution will take place. Considering that Martin has said that the story comments on climate change and how humans interact with nature, I believe the moral of the story is that, balance, thus the name of the series.

If they're not bad then they are so alien as makes no difference. 

Mance is leading the Wildlings south because the Others are exterminating them.  Revenge for a centuries old genocide or betrayal?  Maybe.  But they raise the dead, hardly suggestive of the balance of nature.  That's as unnatural as it gets, the very essence of a violation of nature and disruption of the natural cycle or balance.  And it's not just humans who suffer.

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

"The Others . . ."

"They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots."

 

We know from Leaf that the Children of the Forest and the Giants fought a lot in pre-history.  I suppose you could take that as an indication that the Others were a weapon created by The Children to destroy their enemies and that, like any doomsday creation, it ended up getting out of control but I'm not sold on that idea.  Whether a naturally occurring phenomenon, an experimental creation gone rogue, or a planetary defence mechanism they seem hostile to any life forms other than themselves.  Spare a thought for that poor old bear on The Fist. 

 

The Others need defeating or containing.  I don't think that's necessarily a bad story, if told well, though both those judgments are down to individual preference.  Where the surprises or deviations from trope will come are likely around the relation between them and humanity and we have had hints with The Night's King and Craster's sacrifices.  As with a lot of GRRM's gardening approach I'm not sure he knows where the path is taking him.

[Mourning Star]

I would contend that the Others are the ice equivalent of Dragons. Both are extreme embodiments of an element that destroys life, yet they are also elements that are essential parts of our earth.

I would also contend that like Dragons, Others can be used as a weapon. Valyria enslaved a large portion of the world, while the Others dominated Westeros during the Long Night.

I think Leaf gives us some insight into the logic of using the Others against humanity.

Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."
She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

In this analogy of the wood (Westeros), the deer (humans) are overpopulating and pushing out the other animals (children, giants, etc.) In this analogy there are no wolves (Others) in the wood to cull the deer (human) herd. This provides us with a motivation for returning the Others to Westeros.

We know from the ancient histories we've been told that the Singers are not an inherently peaceful people, and waged war with the First Men. As for the sad songs of the Singers, we are reading the Song of Ice and Fire.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

I'm of the opinion that this is a story where mankind's woes will be of their own making, and Bloodraven is the prime suspect for being responsible for the return of the Others.

I would also contend that the Others may not have always been hell bent on exterminating Mankind.

I think there is reason to believe that Symeon Star Eyes and Serwyn of the Mirror Shield are stories about Others in Westeros before the Wall was built. Blue sapphires for eyes, a two bladed staff (a sword without a hilt aka sorcery), a mirror shield (the reactive camouflage of the Others), slaying a dragon, and being a member of the Kingsguard (White swords) long before there was a Kingsguard, could all be read as indications of their true nature.

In addition, we also read of the Night's King, and whatever his relationship was with his corpse bride and the Others, the Long Night, Last Hero, House Stark and the Night's Watch. A discussion topic all its own.

Finally, I would contend that war is not the solution to the problem of the Others, and never was.

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

[Black Crow]

GRRM has described them as 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” The description that they are “made of ice” is exactly how Stannis references them as “made of snow and ice” and then turning back to GRRM, he confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." So in short, the Others seen in the books supposedly ride the cold winds and then appear in human form but are made of snow and ice held together by magic.

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has described them as 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” The description that they are “made of ice” is exactly how Stannis references them as “made of snow and ice” and then turning back to GRRM, he confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." So in short, the Others seen in the books supposedly ride the cold winds and then appear in human form but are made of snow and ice held together by magic.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Here is where I fall on the creatures that Will and Sam encountered in the books.

Either:

1) they are formed from the same ice magic that formed the Others of legend or

2) These ice golems are formed to resemble the tales told of the Others of legend.  Specifically they are formed from frozen air to resemble the bedtime tales of Westeros' great boogeymen, the White Walkers/Others.

I'm leaning towards the latter, since the oral tales include the Others producing half-breed offspring with human women.  This implies that the Others of legend were biological creatures who could potentially mate with humans.  (If indeed they themselves weren't just another tribe of humans).  The ice golem that Sam causes to disappear into a mist would not be capable of this.

 

[Black Crow]

I'm dubious about the second option. It seems a bit of a stretch that a quite different party should be able/willing to duplicate a mysterious process from legendary times. I'm much more inclined to see them as one and the same.

As to lying with women to produce those "half-human children", no I agree that those demons made of ice and snow who slew Ser Waymar didn't stop off at Craster's on the way home...

I think bearing in mind we're talking about legendary history rather than forensic reconstruction, that there's probably an easy way to explain it

If we look at the Others as wargs/skinchangers, cut off from their original bodies - remember how Varamyr described riding the cold winds after his original body died - then lying with women before that death would produce children who were not just skinchangers, but skinchangers who could form their own bodies from ice and show rather than be compelled to fade away in their familiars

Starks ?

[WolfgangII]

On 7/26/2022 at 2:19 PM, Mourning Star said:

I think there is reason to believe that Symeon Star Eyes and Serwyn of the Mirror Shield are stories about Others in Westeros before the Wall was built. Blue sapphires for eyes, a two bladed staff (a sword without a hilt aka sorcery), a mirror shield (the reactive camouflage of the Others), slaying a dragon, and being a member of the Kingsguard (White swords) long before there was a Kingsguard, could all be read as indications of their true nature.

Great theory. The Others could be just another race of men with particular reasons to move beyond the Lands of Always Winter. I'm inclining to believe some Others have lived among the men.

[WolfgangII]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:55 AM, Black Crow said:

Starks ?

I have always believed the Starks are related to the Others. Maybe they lost their body and warged on corpses, or build their own body from ice. Maybe the succesfull Others warged in some humans that initiaded House Stark. 

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, WolfgangII said:

Great theory. The Others could be just another race of men with particular reasons to move beyond the Lands of Always Winter. I'm inclining to believe some Others have lived among the men.

Yes, though I'm inclined to look at it slightly differently. The Others are not a race, but individuals who were once men

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, WolfgangII said:

I have always believed the Starks are related to the Others. Maybe they lost their body and warged on corpses, or build their own body from ice. Maybe the succesfull Others warged in some humans that initiaded House Stark. 

I refer to my answer of a few minutes ago. In Tolkein terms the Others are not Orcs but Nazgul and I think that some of them may once have been Starks

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I refer to my answer of a few minutes ago. In Tolkein terms the Others are not Orcs but Nazgul and I think that some of them may once have been Starks

Some Nazgul have been Starks?

[LongRider]

26 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Some Nazgul have been Starks?

Except for Ned, he was Boromir.    

[Black Crow]

Actually, its long years [I won't say how long] since I last read Tolkein, but yes, I'm suggesting that those swords placed on Stark tombs were not intended to keep their dusty corpses lying there, but to prevent their riding the cold winds

[the trees have eyes]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I refer to my answer of a few minutes ago. In Tolkein terms the Others are not Orcs but Nazgul and I think that some of them may once have been Starks

Interesting.  We see Craster leaving his infant sons to be taken but it's not clear whether as sacrifices or as converts.  What force or magic might cause men to become Others?

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Interesting.  We see Craster leaving his infant sons to be taken but it's not clear whether as sacrifices or as converts.  What force or magic might cause men to become Others?

This was where the old gods ruled, the nameless gods of the trees and the wolves and the snows.

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I