Your Opinions 5: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"

[Angel Eyes]

Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Tywin was absent from King's Landing until ASoS, so I don't think he even noticed how twisted Joffrey was until it was too late.

Surely he would have made visits to King's Landing every so often in the years preceding AGOT? Having 13-year-olds raped likely wouldn't have taken up so much of his time.

[BlackLightning]

On 6/22/2022 at 11:21 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

On the topic of Sansa, I must admit that I’m a bit conflicted about her endgame. GRRM’s confirmation that there has never been a Lady of Winterfell would seem to indicate that this is deliberate—it’s a tradition that’s being set up to be broken by the end of the series, like Asha with the Ironborn. But upon reflection, I really don’t think that Sansa’s arc has been about learning to rule. It’s been about diplomacy (which she started learning as a child but has picked up by osmosis in King’s Landing and the Vale), manipulation (LF loves monologuing to her about all his brilliant schemes), and being a mother figure (the Blackwater, Sweetrobin, and possibly to Bran and Rickon later on). LF really hasn’t been teaching her how to rule so much as how to persuade and manipulate. It’s more fitting for back room deals than ruling as the lady of a kingdom. I could see her using those skills to protect her family from their enemies, and I could see her being the mother of the next generation of Starks. But as a ruler herself? That doesn’t seem to be an overarching theme for her. If anything, her greatest desire (beyond going home) seems to be to be loved by someone who doesn’t want her for her claim. 

That said, if Bran becomes king and Jon is exiled, she’s all but certainly going to become the Lady of WF regardless. Unless of course Rickon lives to the end and the show just fridged him for no reason. George did say that some characters who were killed on the show will live in the books. . .

I think Rickon will survive and be Bran's heir as the Prince of Winterfell. He'll rule Winterfell in the end.

But Sansa? I think she will become the very first female Hand of the King for her brother in the end.

Yes, I do think there will be a total Stark takeover in the finale. I think that'll be the biggest difference in the book and TV finales. The Stark children will not be going their separate ways: they will rule Westeros together when all said is done with their magical powers and direwolves. Kinda like how it was with Aegon, Visenya, Rhaenys and Orys

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think Rickon will survive and be Bran's heir as the Prince of Winterfell. He'll rule Winterfell in the end.

But Sansa? I think she will become the very first female Hand of the King for her brother in the end.

Nah, I think that things will end up be pretty much as they were on the show, unfortunately.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Nah, I think that things will end up be pretty much as they were on the show, unfortunately.

If so, I’d feel I had been trolled.  Such an ending would be nihilistic, not bittersweet.

[Angel Eyes]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If so, I’d feel I had been trolled.  Such an ending would be nihilistic, not bittersweet.

And yet I could see GRRM writing it out.

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 6/24/2022 at 2:44 PM, BlackLightning said:

I think Rickon will survive and be Bran's heir as the Prince of Winterfell. He'll rule Winterfell in the end.

But Sansa? I think she will become the very first female Hand of the King for her brother in the end.

Yes, I do think there will be a total Stark takeover in the finale. I think that'll be the biggest difference in the book and TV finales. The Stark children will not be going their separate ways: they will rule Westeros together when all said is done with their magical powers and direwolves. Kinda like how it was with Aegon, Visenya, Rhaenys and Orys

Hmm that’s a new theory I hadn’t heard before. I also like the theory that Harrenhal will be the new capital under Bran, since Dany blew the last one to smithereens. 
 

I recently watched @The Dragon Demands video of the original S8 script where most of KL is destroyed by the wildfire Dany sets off, rather than by her combing the streets with Drogon. I disagree with his conclusion though: I think Dany’s decision to continue the attack after the bells rang (lol) was clearly D&D’s way of showing that she was a villain now. But by having her do most of the damage intentionally, they were absolving Jon of all moral ambiguity by killing her. If it happens in the books, I suspect that it will be to save Arya from Dany’s wrath (even the show had his fear for his sisters’ lives be what convinced him to go through with it). As much as D&D loved being praised for writing a “feminist icon” and portrayed everything she did as righteous for the first seven seasons, they ultimately cared more about Jon and prioritized his reputation. 
 

I have more thoughts about Lenin and Washington and Dany, but I think I’ll save that for later 

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

On 6/24/2022 at 12:02 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Nah, I think that things will end up be pretty much as they were on the show, unfortunately.

Gosh I hope not. And even if some things go like they did on the show, the author will have them done way better.

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hmm that’s a new theory I hadn’t heard before. I also like the theory that Harrenhal will be the new capital under Bran, since Dany blew the last one to smithereens. 
 

I recently watched @The Dragon Demands video of the original S8 script where most of KL is destroyed by the wildfire Dany sets off, rather than by her combing the streets with Drogon. I disagree with his conclusion though: I think Dany’s decision to continue the attack after the bells rang (lol) was clearly D&D’s way of showing that she was a villain now. But by having her do most of the damage intentionally, they were absolving Jon of all moral ambiguity by killing her. If it happens in the books, I suspect that it will be to save Arya from Dany’s wrath (even the show had his fear for his sisters’ lives be what convinced him to go through with it). As much as D&D loved being praised for writing a “feminist icon” and portrayed everything she did as righteous for the first seven seasons, they ultimately cared more about Jon and prioritized his reputation. 
 

I have more thoughts about Lenin and Washington and Dany, but I think I’ll save that for later 

Well spotted.  Yes, Jon’s main motivation was to save his sisters.  How could he justify killing Daenerys when thousands of his own men had just raped and murdered the inhabitants?  How could Jon be completely unaware of the mood for revenge among his own men?

 In fact, there was another deleted scene, in which Jon makes plain to Tyrion that it’s most unlikely that a surrender will be accepted that day, which makes him entirely complicit in the massacre.  Of course, no army would have offered quarter in real life, once they stormed the city walls.

But, it would be a much harder sell, if Jon actually thought Dany would be a decent queen, but killed her because Sansa had made herself into her enemy.

I think Tyrion’s true motive for turning was anger over his dead siblings.  He advocated starving the people, which would leave the city resembling Belsen, rather than Dresden.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 hours ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

Gosh I hope not. And even if some things go like they did on the show, the author will have them done way better.

I mean, George did say that his ending won't be that much different from the show's ending. 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, George did say that his ending won't be that much different from the show's ending. 

He said it before he knew how the show would end.

But, similarity in events does not necessarily mean similarity in motives.  If Tyrion compassed Daenerys’ death, I’d be sure his motives were base ones, like Iago’s.  He may be the author’s favourite, but he’s also The Villain of the tale.  The two D’s wanted to make Tyrion into a saint.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

He said it before he knew how the show would end.

But, similarity in events does not necessarily mean similarity in motives.  If Tyrion compassed Daenerys’ death, I’d be sure his motives were base ones, like Iago’s.  He may be the author’s favourite, but he’s also The Villain of the tale.  The two D’s wanted to make Tyrion into a saint.

Again, another example of why showing mercy is bad in asoiaf; he holds back on his siblings, they decimate half the alliance he helped build.

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Again, another example of why showing mercy is bad in asoiaf; he holds back on his siblings, they decimate half the alliance he helped build.

I had assumed the big reveal would be that Tyrion was deliberately sabotaging Daenerys.

But, I think he somehow turned into a moron, from Season 5.  I wonder that he managed to feed and dress himself.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

He said it before he knew how the show would end.

He sad it during and after season 8.

[Daeron the Daring]

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He sad it during and after season 8.

I think what he said is that some things will be similar/same, some will be different. He said that his ending will be similar when the show was somewhere around S6 or 7.

[The Bard of Banefort]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

He said it before he knew how the show would end.

But, similarity in events does not necessarily mean similarity in motives.  If Tyrion compassed Daenerys’ death, I’d be sure his motives were base ones, like Iago’s.  He may be the author’s favourite, but he’s also The Villain of the tale.  The two D’s wanted to make Tyrion into a saint.

I think Tyrion’s tragedy is that he thinks he wants his family dead, which is what will prompt him to push Dany towards violence, but once Jaime dies, he’ll be forced to realize that he still loves his brother and helped kill him. And then he’ll turn on Dany.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think what he said is that some things will be similar/same, some will be different. He said that his ending will be similar when the show was somewhere around S6 or 7.

As I understood it, he meant that the fates of minor characters will be different, but not the major ones.

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think what he said is that some things will be similar/same, some will be different. He said that his ending will be similar when the show was somewhere around S6 or 7.

He has changed his answer on this multiple times. 

[Angel Eyes]

22 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think Tyrion’s true motive for turning was anger over his dead siblings.  He advocated starving the people, which would leave the city resembling Belsen, rather than Dresden.

If that was the case he didn't do a good job of it.

[sifth]

I think the biggest issue with Dany’s madness is just how sudden it happens. In 6 episodes she goes from being a hero queen who frees slaves, to basically being a Nazi. Not entirely sure who thought that was a good idea, but I hope it wasn’t GRRM.

[BlackLightning]

17 minutes ago, sifth said:

I think the biggest issue with Dany’s madness is just how sudden it happens. In 6 episodes she goes from being a hero queen who frees slaves, to basically being a Nazi. Not entirely sure who thought that was a good idea, but I hope it wasn’t GRRM.

It wasn't GRRM. He stopped working on the show during the season 4 process