Your Opinions 5: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"

[frenin]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

White Harbour and the coasts could be devastated by Ironborn and Eastern slavers.

White Harbour, while important isn't the north.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I hate Sam's character. He is a pathetic wimp that feels too much like a self-insert and should have died long ago. 

I've viewed Tyrion and Sam as two sides of a coin, mainly due to appearing to be Martin's voice in the series. Both are bookish types whose physical appearance make them a disappointment to their stern fathers; Tyrion has dwarfism, Sam is fat. How they deal with it is another matter, with Tyrion developing a Stepford Snarker facade to cope while Sam is just plain scared of his father.

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I hate Sam's character. He is a pathetic wimp that feels too much like a self-insert and should have died long ago. 

I liked him in AGOT and Clash, but started to dislike him in Storm because it sort of seemed like he went back in character development. Obviously, the Others are massively f***ing scary, but I don't see Grenn or anyone collapsing into the snow and having to be carried around like a sack of grain atop someone's back. Then AFFC came by, and I read all his chapters a and thought it was useless and so darn boring that I just skip his chapters. Not like it adds anything, and we're prolly never going to get the next book, so no point. 

He's got too much damn plot armor and is pretty unlikable quite a bit. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I liked him in AGOT and Clash, but started to dislike him in Storm because it sort of seemed like he went back in character development. Obviously, the Others are massively f***ing scary, but I don't see Grenn or anyone collapsing into the snow and having to be carried around like a sack of grain atop someone's back. Then AFFC came by, and I read all his chapters a and thought it was useless and so darn boring that I just skip his chapters. Not like it adds anything, and we're prolly never going to get the next book, so no point. 

He's got too much damn plot armor and is pretty unlikable quite a bit. 

He’s a parasitic worm to Jon.  My views are probably coloured by the show.

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I've viewed Tyrion and Sam as two sides of a coin, mainly due to appearing to be Martin's voice in the series. Both are bookish types whose physical appearance make them a disappointment to their stern fathers; Tyrion has dwarfism, Sam is fat. How they deal with it is another matter, with Tyrion developing a Stepford Snarker facade to cope while Sam is just plain scared of his father.

Considering Sam's father threatened to murder him, being scared of him seems a reasonable reaction.  He can be a bitter pill at times, but he is friendly, loyal, and very intelligent.  

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I liked him in AGOT and Clash, but started to dislike him in Storm because it sort of seemed like he went back in character development. Obviously, the Others are massively f***ing scary, but I don't see Grenn or anyone collapsing into the snow and having to be carried around like a sack of grain atop someone's back. Then AFFC came by, and I read all his chapters a and thought it was useless and so darn boring that I just skip his chapters. Not like it adds anything, and we're prolly never going to get the next book, so no point. 

He's got too much damn plot armor and is pretty unlikable quite a bit. 

I actually thought he improved in ASOS.  I think he's become a man by the end of ASOS.  The improvement began with the mutiny at Craster's and continued with him saving Gilly and killing the White Walker.  And he essentially single-handedly made Jon Lord Commander.  And regardless of your opinion of Jon, Janos Slynt would have been an absolute disaster.

He showed some guts when he pounded Dareon, and is currently in an environment where he can thrive.  Yes, he has his problems and dislikable traits.  So does everybody, in this series.

[Hugorfonics]

How fat was this guy? So he shows up for sleep awake camp all ready for arts&crafts or whatever, and is beaten hourly with intervals of death threats. Is this the time for breakfast? Fortunately he soon meets Jon so we can assume he's got like one warm meal in there, until the next morning where he's out hiking like 20 miles a day in the wilderness. He probably had some meals then, albeit they were cold ones. Well, one day the meals ran out and his brothers killed their boss, this didn't produce much meals in the short term but plenty of more hiking in the long term. After walking to the wall, by the wall, under the wall and lastly through the wall he's back in the kitchen ready for breakfast. Until the next morning where friendly Jon shoves him on a boat where he rocks back and forth convulsing hourly reminiscing on the good days of Alliser. One day, finally, he stumbles off the ship. But before his Scooby Doo nose pulls him to the nearest breakfast table he sees Leo, who looks him up and down, and calls him fat. So really, how fat was he?

Quote

 

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Because amphibious warfare and supply chain management is a nightmare

Especially before the WWII

Well, instead of being boyfriend puts down girlfriend because he "don't want it" like the TV show, it'll be husband puts down pregnant wife because she and his cousins have different goals and belief systems.

Which is infinitely worse...

That being said, I'm a big fan of Shakespearean tragedy so I'm not truly opposed to an ending similar to Othello in which Tyrion (aka Iago) manipulating Jon (aka Othello) into killing Daenerys (aka Desdemona) only for Tyrion to be caught completely off-guard by Bran (aka Cassio) who takes Iago down and assumes command as Othello's successor.

I don't mind that kind of ending. It just has to be written well.

What I will have a problem with is if:

• Bran becomes an detachedly and apathetically malevolent god-king that has less than zero personality
• Daenerys becomes some sort of bloodthirsty, overly-religious psycho with no self-awareness and no common sense who never did anything out of the goodness of her heart a day in her life
• Tyrion gets away with it
• and so on and so on

If the heroes turn bad

I think there's another big  issue, if the show's ending were to reflect Martin's intended ending.

The books convincingly critique feudalism,  and even more, chattel slavery.  The latter is worse than the former, but what both have in common is that untrammelled power is placed in the hands of the lords and the slave masters, over the smallfolk.  The Starks may be better than the majority, but even so, they are good masters.  We know that there have been bad Starks in the past, and there is nothing to prevent a bad Stark from coming to power in the future.

There are no checks on bad rulers, other than the military power of other dynasts.   What Westeros needs are representative institutions, and a judiciary that operates independently of the lords (which some medieval societies managed to achieve in real life).  What Essos needs is for chattel slavery to be removed root and stem. I think this is the correct interpretation of the books, sociologically.

On top of this, is the ill treatment of women.  Societies that treat 50% of the population as not much better than chattels, aren't going to be great places to live in. 

But, what we got in the show's endgame was total endorsement of the status quo.  Tyrion, breaking the fourth wall,  portrays Daenerys' anti-slavery campaign as evil, a precursor to genocide.  The two D's were keen to play up the good side of chattel slavery.  The oligarchs in the Dragonpit laughed uproariously, when Yohn Royce compared the smallfolk to dogs and horses.  Then they selected two of their number as rulers, not on the basis of any achievements on their part, but purely on the basis of bloodline. Bitches be Crazy, and distrust of foreigners were treated not as in-universe prejudices, but as ethical truths.  "Reform" is not replacing hereditary monarchy, with monarchs chosen by a tiny clique of power-brokers.

Now, if that is Martin's ending, it totally undercuts the message that he's been trying to tell throughout earlier parts of the series.  If the conclusion is that in effect, the masses should "always stick with nurse, for fear of getting something worse", then that is completely reactionary.  If the conclusion is that feudalism is bad, but it becomes good if Bran and Sansa are in charge, then that's just stupid.

 

[the trees have eyes]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think there's another big  issue, if the show's ending were to reflect Martin's intended ending.

The books convincingly critique feudalism,  and even more, chattel slavery.  The latter is worse than the former, but what both have in common is that untrammelled power is placed in the hands of the lords and the slave masters, over the smallfolk.  The Starks may be better than the majority, but even so, they are good masters.  We know that there have been bad Starks in the past, and there is nothing to prevent a bad Stark from coming to power in the future.

There are no checks on bad rulers, other than the military power of other dynasts.   What Westeros needs are representative institutions, and a judiciary that operates independently of the lords (which some medieval societies managed to achieve in real life).  What Essos needs is for chattel slavery to be removed root and stem. I think this is the correct interpretation of the books, sociologically.

On top of this, is the ill treatment of women.  Societies that treat 50% of the population as not much better than chattels, aren't going to be great places to live in. 

But, what we got in the show's endgame was total endorsement of the status quo.  Tyrion, breaking the fourth wall,  portrays Daenerys' anti-slavery campaign as evil, a precursor to genocide.  The two D's were keen to play up the good side of chattel slavery.  The oligarchs in the Dragonpit laughed uproariously, when Yohn Royce compared the smallfolk to dogs and horses.  Then they selected two of their number as rulers, not on the basis of any achievements on their part, but purely on the basis of bloodline. Bitches be Crazy, and distrust of foreigners were treated not as in-universe prejudices, but as ethical truths.

Now, if that is Martin's ending, it totally undercuts the message that he's been trying to tell throughout earlier parts of the series.  If the conclusion is that in effect, the masses should "always stick with nurse, for fear of getting something worse", then that is completely reactionary.  If the conclusion is that feudalism is bad, but it becomes good if Bran and Sansa are in charge, then that's just stupid.

 

I agree on the critique of the system but I see this more as the setting for the story and the stage on which our characters act, that is, that the establishment of representative government is not the drift of the story.  This is a pseudo-medieval fantasy about the Great Houses - Starks, Lannisters, Barratheons and Targaryens (and now Martells, Greyjoys and ~ Tyrells) - and the existential threat of The Others (well, it looms whether or not it materialises).  It's not quite LOTR with Dany/Bran/Jon set to be Elessar with a long unblemished reign of wisdom and benevolence ahead but it's the same genre though with GRRM's grittier and darker tone.

The smallfolk are at the Peasants' Revolt level of education and political mobilisation and the nobility are at the Great Council = Provisions of Oxford/Magna Carta level of ensuring their interests are protected and The Crown's power checked but I don't see The Parliamentary Opposition (Pym & co)(there is no Parliament and indeed no Third Estate at all) or any intellectuals like Tom Paine (or any Enlightenment philosophers) to spread ideas of the rights of the smallfolk or representative government.

They're a step or two behind with the coin flip of Good Targ / Bad Targ or good ruler / bad ruler (Aerys v [assumed good Targ?] Rhaegar, Cersei v Dany/Bran/Jon?) setting the tone. Not to beat the LOTR analogy too hard but Denethor and Saruman turn bad, Aragorn and Gandalf remain good and triumph and Gondor sees the re-establishment of a monarchy.  That feels like the environment in Westeros to me (Essos with it's slave culture is another thing entirely).

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I agree on the critique of the system but I see this more as the setting for the story and the stage on which our characters act, that is, that the establishment of representative government is not the drift of the story.  This is a pseudo-medieval fantasy about the Great Houses - Starks, Lannisters, Barratheons and Targaryens (and now Martells, Greyjoys and ~ Tyrells) - and the existential threat of The Others (well, it looms whether or not it materialises).  It's not quite LOTR with Dany/Bran/Jon set to be Elessar with a long unblemished reign of wisdom and benevolence ahead but it's the same genre though with GRRM's grittier and darker tone.

The smallfolk are at the Peasants' Revolt level of education and political mobilisation and the nobility are at the Great Council = Provisions of Oxford/Magna Carta level of ensuring their interests are protected and The Crown's power checked but I don't see The Parliamentary Opposition (Pym & co)(there is no Parliament and indeed no Third Estate at all) or any intellectuals like Tom Paine (or any Enlightenment philosophers) to spread ideas of the rights of the smallfolk or representative government.

They're a step or two behind with the coin flip of Good Targ / Bad Targ or good ruler / bad ruler (Aerys v [assumed good Targ?] Rhaegar, Cersei v Dany/Bran/Jon?) setting the tone. Not to beat the LOTR analogy too hard but Denethor and Saruman turn bad, Aragorn and Gandalf remain good and triumph and Gondor sees the re-establishment of a monarchy.  That feels like the environment in Westeros to me (Essos with it's slave culture is another thing entirely).

I get no suggestion that Martin (unlike the two D's) sees chattel slavery as anything other than despicable.  I think we dodged a large bullet when "Confederate" was not greenlit.

[Angel Eyes]

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How fat was this guy? So he shows up for sleep awake camp all ready for arts&crafts or whatever, and is beaten hourly with intervals of death threats. Is this the time for breakfast? Fortunately he soon meets Jon so we can assume he's got like one warm meal in there, until the next morning where he's out hiking like 20 miles a day in the wilderness. He probably had some meals then, albeit they were cold ones. Well, one day the meals ran out and his brothers killed their boss, this didn't produce much meals in the short term but plenty of more hiking in the long term. After walking to the wall, by the wall, under the wall and lastly through the wall he's back in the kitchen ready for breakfast. Until the next morning where friendly Jon shoves him on a boat where he rocks back and forth convulsing hourly reminiscing on the good days of Alliser. One day, finally, he stumbles off the ship. But before his Scooby Doo nose pulls him to the nearest breakfast table he sees Leo, who looks him up and down, and calls him fat. So really, how fat was he?

 

AGOT has Jon estimate him at around 20 stone, which would make him around 280 lbs since one stone is 14 lbs.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

AGOT has Jon estimate him at around 20 stone, which would make him around 280 lbs since one stone is 14 lbs.

So let's say that Sam has lost 50 lbs so far...

He'd be 230. Given his height, Sam will still be overweight and probably even dumpy-looking. Especially if he's not training and doing any weightlifting...

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

So let's say that Sam has lost 50 lbs so far...

He'd be 230. Given his height, Sam will still be overweight and probably even dumpy-looking. Especially if he's not training and doing any weightlifting...

bill davenport idaho - Bing images

This is how I envisage Samwell

[Angel Eyes]

39 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

So let's say that Sam has lost 50 lbs so far...

He'd be 230. Given his height, Sam will still be overweight and probably even dumpy-looking. Especially if he's not training and doing any weightlifting...

Speaking of which, how tall is Sam? We actually have little to go on with heights throughout the books, outside of Gregor Clegane being 8'0", King Robert being 6'6", and Renly being somewhat shorter than him though still taller than Loras (hence why Garlan impersonated Renly in the Battle of the Blackwater so I would imagine he's somewhere around his height).

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Speaking of which, how tall is Sam? We actually have little to go on with heights throughout the books, outside of Gregor Clegane being 8'0", King Robert being 6'6", and Renly being somewhat shorter than him though still taller than Loras (hence why Garlan impersonated Renly in the Battle of the Blackwater so I would imagine he's somewhere around his height).

About 5 foot 6 inches.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Doesn’t Sam mention in AFFC that he’s lost a lot of weight and gained muscle since joining the Watch?

I don’t think Dany becoming queen would do all that much for women’s rights, to be honest. There have been female monarchs since at least ancient Egypt (probably earlier), and we still have sexism today. 

I think the idea of electing a king via Great Council is supposed to act as a form of checks and balances. I know many elective monarchies haven’t worked in the real world, but at the same time, there are elective democracies that have failed in the present day. How successful they are can’t really be pre-determined.
And the elites always get the right to vote before commoners do—eventually, chances are that smallfolk will be given more rights, but that won’t be within the purview of the series.

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Doesn’t Sam mention in AFFC that he’s lost a lot of weight and gained muscle since joining the Watch?

I don’t think Dany becoming queen would do all that much for women’s rights, to be honest. There have been female monarchs since at least ancient Egypt (probably earlier), and we still have sexism today. 

I think the idea of electing a king via Great Council is supposed to act as a form of checks and balances. I know many elective monarchies haven’t worked in the real world, but at the same time, there are elective democracies that have failed in the present day. How successful they are can’t really be pre-determined.
And the elites always get the right to vote before commoners do—eventually, chances are that smallfolk will be given more rights, but that won’t be within the purview of the series.

Elective monarchy is pretty much the worst system that can be chosen.  It has none of the benefits of either monarchy or democracy.  Extending the powers of the nobility usually means diminishing the rights of the smallfolk, something we see with Aegon V.  Pretty well every reform that benefitted the smallfolk in universe (limits on rights to punish wives, rights for widows, the end to first night, Aegon's reforms) came from the top in the face of noble hostility.

Certainly in English history (although we dropped elective monarchy in 1066) weak kings and strong nobility meant a horror show for the peasants. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Remember when John Oliver did a segment on his show where he “dropped in” on GRRM typing away at his desk, back when the show was in its prime, and he turned and said “I just killed three of your favorite characters”? I saw that clip recently in another video, and it’s weird how cringey it feels now. One, because after seeing just how much of a con job GOT was, it’s a little embarrassing to consider how the show used to be given this much attention, but also because, as much as I wish it were otherwise, GRRM simply hasn’t lived up to his image at this point. I think most of us can deduce now that George wasn’t hard at work finishing the series for most of the 2010s. Not only did he not finish the books in time, he didn’t even manage to put out the next installment. He’s my favorite author, but you simply can’t be regarded with as high of a status as George was and not make any tangible progress on your series for a solid decade. And as someone who is nevertheless a huge fan of the supplementary material, it’s even worse. The last book set in this universe, Fire and Blood, came out almost four years ago. 

It’s looking more and more likely that George just doesn’t have it in him to finish the series, but he’s too proud to admit it (and he wants to make sure we all watch those wretched spin-offs. . . ) And in truth, him admitting that he’s done with the series probably would be more heart-wrenching than us holding on to the tiniest fraction of hope that we’ll get another book one day.

Well, now I’m depressed 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

So let's say that Sam has lost 50 lbs so far...

Gotta be more. He lived in the woods for like a year and then a boat for 6 months. I'd say closer to 150

57 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think Dany becoming queen would do all that much for women’s rights, to be honest

(Do we know how average women were treated compared to men in say, the reign of Nefertiti? Or whomever?)

For sure, Egypt didn't conquer the world though, just got conquered a few times. If Antony won, who knows? (Probably not)

But I do think that if Arianna becomes head boss while Danys around it'll be easier for Sansa (or Arya) to rule, because of the precedent. And with a large chunk of the nation ruled by women perhaps some things may get better 

53 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Elective monarchy is pretty much the worst system that can be chosen.  It has none of the benefits of either monarchy or democracy.  Extending the powers of the nobility usually means diminishing the rights of the smallfolk, something we see with Aegon V.

Word, the big ones in my mind are the Holy Romen Empire, which is like 75% of the middle ages which is like 75% of our recorded history, which kinda resonates on why Westeros has been in the dark ages for 10k years, so that's not great.

The other of course, is the NFL. Where Commander Red Daniel Snyder can just reject a subpoena from the Congress of the United States of America! As if hes like Steve Bannon or something. And Roger Godell, like always (Always) will chose the cowards way out and earn scorn and ridicule, while remaining at the "head" of the powerful and wicked, or as we call them, Jerry Jones.

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

I get no suggestion that Martin (unlike the two D's) sees chattel slavery as anything other than despicable.  I think we dodged a large bullet when "Confederate" was not greenlit.

I don’t think Dany being against slavery is going to be portrayed as wrong as a principle. I think that it’s more likely her campaign in Meereen will end the way most western interventions in the Middle-East have, with the new systems of government collapsing almost immediately after withdrawal. The only way Dany can ensure that Meereen remains a free city is by staying there for the rest of her life. It’s all or nothing. Once she departs for Westeros, Meereen will all but certainly fall back into the hands of the slavers.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think Dany being against slavery is going to be portrayed as wrong as a principle. I think that it’s more likely her campaign in Meereen will end the way most western interventions in the Middle-East have, with the new systems of government collapsing almost immediately after withdrawal. The only way Dany can ensure that Meereen remains a free city is by staying there for the rest of her life. It’s all or nothing. Once she departs for Westeros, Meereen will all but certainly fall back into the hands of the slavers.

The big difference to intervention in the Middle East is the slavers are vastly outnumbered by the freedmen.  Once they lose their monopoly of violence, there's no coming back.  Particularly once Volantis, the regional superpower, goes up in revolution.

That's not to say that everything would be sweetness and light.  The likeliest ruler in Meereen post Dany would be The Shavepate.  He's not a nice man, but I expect he'd be quite competent.