Your Opinions 5: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Why would George's ending have be satisfactory for every character? Why would it have to satisfactory towards anyone? You believe in a happy ending without any freckles? If George wants to be realistic, I think portraying someone who ultimately survives solely because he always choose the right side (but had been an envious leech all the time) is a pretty good imitation of reality.

 

Brotha, no offense but how do you know what's on his mind? Why couldn't he get Sansa to show his own loyalty towards the rebelling Stark faction? I know, meanwhile he had Jeyne Poole trained to be Arya, but the man is the embodiment of genius, it'd be foolish for him to place all he has on 1 number. He would have to be lucky, simply put.

And then, why do you think different people should act the same in given situations? We are all different, in different situation, all the time. He may have cried for hours alone in his room and we just don't know that. Happens all the time in this story. We have freakin POVs that are still able to hold back certain secrets from us, despite being POVs. Why do you think we should know anything about Petyr's reaction when we didn't even have a POV any close to him. In fact, there doesn't seem to be a single person Petyr would be so close with he'd share whatever actually personal. Sansa is but a child, and it is more than enough for her to understand that Petyr supposedly helps her because he had feelings for her mother. He doesn't have to lash out about his feelings to know they are there, and it'd be quite dumb of him, considering he's been acting in his play for years without breaking character once.

The only person who may have known more than others may be Varys, for he is spying on him.

Ooh this goes back to the old debate about LF. I’m in the camp that doesn’t think he’s clever at all, he’s just wrapped from head to toe in plot armor.

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

With regard to M/M rape, the most likely venue for that would be the Nights Watch, and he has set them up as essentially good guys, heroic even.  Something akin to a brotherhood or monastic order dedicated to a higher purpose.  How realistic this is is another matter, but it's George's story, so I'll go along with it.

In any case, even with condemned prisoners, having a purpose instead of being warehoused would probably improve things.  And to be honest, I don't think GRRM really wants to go there.  

As for disease, filth, and the like, you can have too much realism.  And it's interesting to note, that while noble women dying in childbirth seems to happen somewhat, there is little mention of infant or child mortality, quite high in this type of setting.  Even a family like the Starks would have had one or two kids die young, most likely.

More like he couldn't imagine Jon being raped (despite being a fresh young boy) but had no issue sexualizing Dany who is personally turned on by. 

It throws his 'realism' argue into the trash. 

[Daeron the Daring]

24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Ooh this goes back to the old debate about LF. I’m in the camp that doesn’t think he’s clever at all, he’s just wrapped from head to toe in plot armor.

Sooo, luck or capability, what makes anyone think it cant hold out till the end? 

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Sooo, luck or capability, what makes anyone think it cant hold out till the end? 

Well, a lot of people think he’s the giant being slain in the GOHH’s vision. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

More like he couldn't imagine Jon being raped (despite being a fresh young boy) but had no issue sexualizing Dany who is personally turned on by. 

It throws his 'realism' argue into the trash. 

I don't think anyone would have touched Jon, given his background.  Sam, on the other hand ...

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

As for disease, filth, and the like, you can have too much realism.  And it's interesting to note, that while noble women dying in childbirth seems to happen somewhat, there is little mention of infant or child mortality, quite high in this type of setting.  Even a family like the Starks would have had one or two kids die young, most likely.

True; most kids who die in the series are by violence (little Lord Darry comes to mind). As far as disease and filth, we have Daenerys suffering from dysentery, but Bran seems to have no issues with continence.

[butterweedstrover]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't think anyone would have touched Jon, given his background.  Sam, on the other hand ...

You could make the same argument for Dany. Actually Dany has a more significant background. So does Sansa. 

But Sansa is sexually humiliated while the bastard Jon doesn't have to face ever a single moment of sexual vulnerability because he is Martin's special boy hero secret prince fantasy. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

43 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But Sansa is sexually humiliated...

Where does that happen?

[Mystical]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

With regard to M/M rape, the most likely venue for that would be the Nights Watch, and he has set them up as essentially good guys, heroic even.  Something akin to a brotherhood or monastic order dedicated to a higher purpose.  How realistic this is is another matter, but it's George's story, so I'll go along with it.

In any case, even with condemned prisoners, having a purpose instead of being warehoused would probably improve things.  And to be honest, I don't think GRRM really wants to go there.

Even our oh so modern western armies have problems with 'sexual misconduct'. But that's not going to happen in penal colony made up mostly of criminals, some who have committed absolutely vile things they were send to the Wall for? It's completely unrealistic. Martin has no issue going there with girls/women being raped by boys/men but when it comes to male on male rape he doesn't want to be realistic. At most he winks at it. I call bullshit. Either he goes for realism or he doesn't, he can't pick and chose when to be realistic or not.

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

As for disease, filth, and the like, you can have too much realism.  And it's interesting to note, that while noble women dying in childbirth seems to happen somewhat, there is little mention of infant or child mortality, quite high in this type of setting.  Even a family like the Starks would have had one or two kids die young, most likely.

Even we with modern medicine can't avoid the yearly common cold. There would be things like that, even if these aren't supposed to be regular humans like us. As for the child vs mother death rate, I think a lot of people have side-eyed that. But that just brings us back to GRRM and sciences do not mix.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Where does that happen?

IIRC, one of the Kingsguard ripped open her dress in front of Joffrey.  And, she certainly wasn't happy being naked in front of Tyrion, even though he did not in the end claim his "rights." Then, there's LF's endless leering and groping.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

You could make the same argument for Dany. Actually Dany has a more significant background. So does Sansa. 

But Sansa is sexually humiliated while the bastard Jon doesn't have to face ever a single moment of sexual vulnerability because he is Martin's special boy hero secret prince fantasy. 

Viserys seems to have been molesting Dany from an early age, although I'm not sure how far the molestation went. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

IIRC, one of the Kingsguard ripped open her dress in front of Joffrey.  And, she certainly wasn't happy being naked in front of Tyrion, even though he did not in the end claim his "rights." Then, there's LF's endless leering and groping.

Ah, right. I guess since Jon is a good fighter, he had a better chance of defending himself than Sansa had.

[butterweedstrover]

20 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Ah, right. I guess since Jon is a good fighter, he had a better chance of defending himself than Sansa had.

He’s is (was) 14, no one even made a shot at him even though he looks like an easy target. Whereas Robb is described as muscular and bulky Jon is soft and lean like from an adventure book. 
 

His biggest antagonists are schoolboy bullies and once he meets the girl his performance is top notch. 
 

meanwhile Dany is (according to Martin) a hot girl with dragons so framing her as a sexualized object is easy. 
 

the point is none of this has to do with realism, just where Martin’s libido leads him. 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Viserys seems to have been molesting Dany from an early age, although I'm not sure how far the molestation went. 

Viserys apparently tried to rape Daenerys the night before her wedding to Khal Drogo (even though it would scarper his plans for the khalasar in a hurry) and seemed interested in conditioning her to accept him as a husband; Daenerys assumed she would marry Viserys because dragons do not mate with beasts of the field... so Arryns? Mallisters? Greyjoys?

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

But Sansa is sexually humiliated while the bastard Jon doesn't have to face ever a single moment of sexual vulnerability because he is Martin's special boy hero secret prince fantasy. 

This sounds like a dumb take. First of all, the men at Castle Black have Moletown in their backyard, so men don't have to hunt in their own gardens to be able to clear their mind.

And then there are 3 castles at the Wall in total. Not a 1000 men. Most either grew asexual over the years or simply have a way of leaving their sexual needs behind. 

And was Jon an easy prey? Really? Surely, he'd gotten into a fight at the very beginning, but even that was after Benjen left ranging. And do you think Jon's assassins would've attempted to murder him in case there's a strong Stark rule over the North?

Not to mention that rape and homosexuality as well are sinful acts in front of any god these people could think of. Or do you think raping your *brother* is something you could get away with in front of the LC? And even if yes, you think it is something other brothers would tolerate?

I will cringe over this take even in my sleep tonight.

[Angel Eyes]

On 6/22/2022 at 10:17 AM, James Arryn said:

I would say the best father is the dolt Mace…the Tyrells, so far as we can see, are an incredibly well run family who really care for one another and support each other. 
 

The main caveat would be whether or not he was in on Renly and Loras's schemes to get Margaery into Robert's bed and divorce Cersei.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:00 PM, Ran said:

Where exactly were we supposed to get that reaction? He's not present in the scene where the news arrives in KL, and is not seen until many days later following Joff's death.

A word of sympathy to Sansa might have been appropriate. If we take him at his word when he says that Cat was his only love he seems strangely unmoved by her passing. He could have said that his role in Joff's death was a measure of revenge or his learning of the manner of her death could have been shown to be a motivating factor in his betrayal of the Lannisters.  I guess it could still come up in Winds, but it just seemed missing in late Storm or Feast.

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

A word of sympathy to Sansa might have been appropriate. If we take him at his word when he says that Cat was his only love he seems strangely unmoved by her passing. He could have said that his role in Joff's death was a measure of revenge or his learning of the manner of her death could have been shown to be a motivating factor in his betrayal of the Lannisters.  I guess it could still come up in Winds, but it just seemed missing in late Storm or Feast.

He says something of it in the show in Season 4.

Quote

Given the chance, what do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

He says something of it in the show in Season 4.

 

OK even those two thought it was missing.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Something I wish that GRRM included was a look into Robert’s relationship with Myrcella and Tommen. We know he wasn’t a responsible or attentive father, but he was also someone who wanted to be loved and have fun, and I feel like he would have gotten that from the younger two. I could see him doting on Myrcella in particular.