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Your Opinions 5: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"


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SDCC is a work engagement on behalf of HBO in a way the SF cons aren’t, due to his role as an executive producer, so not exactly what he was thinking of when he discussed skipping con-going. But he’s already attended the Santa Fe Literary Festival, so his alleged promise is not, in any case, operative.

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On 6/25/2022 at 10:09 PM, SeanF said:

Well spotted.  Yes, Jon’s main motivation was to save his sisters.  How could he justify killing Daenerys when thousands of his own men had just raped and murdered the inhabitants?  How could Jon be completely unaware of the mood for revenge among his own men?

 In fact, there was another deleted scene, in which Jon makes plain to Tyrion that it’s most unlikely that a surrender will be accepted that day, which makes him entirely complicit in the massacre.  Of course, no army would have offered quarter in real life, once they stormed the city walls.

But, it would be a much harder sell, if Jon actually thought Dany would be a decent queen, but killed her because Sansa had made herself into her enemy.

I think Tyrion’s true motive for turning was anger over his dead siblings.  He advocated starving the people, which would leave the city resembling Belsen, rather than Dresden.

Yeah, a lot of people missed that Tyrion bringing us Sansa and Arya was what turned Jon against Dany. Up until then, he was able to rationalize what she did, even if he didn’t agree with it. The show kind of switched around the book relationships, making Sansa the sister Jon was ultimately closer with instead of Arya (just like how the show emphasized the Hound’s relationship with Arya instead of Sansa), but in the books it will probably be to save Arya, who will do something to cross Dany.

But this is a problem with both the acting and writing. Jon and Dany’s romance was both underwhelming and unconvincing, and even though Jon and Sansa had good screen chemistry, all they ever did was argue with each other. I can kind of understand the dumb incest-shipping fan wars when you consider how they pitted Sansa and Dany against each other as Jon’s “two women” (especially with the way they tried to make Jon and Sansa look like Ned and Cat). But it was all just so. . . bleh.

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12 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Apparently, GRRM will be at SDCC this year to promote House of the Dragon. He said before that he won't visit major cons until Winds is finished, so either he will break that promise, or he is close to finishing the book. The former is definitely more likely, but a boy can dream.

George breaks a lot of promises. In his defense, I don’t think he makes any of them with the intention of breaking them, but unfortunately once it’s happened enough times, you can’t take someone at their word anymore. Book readers feel used, and I don’t think there are many new readers anymore (a friend of mine showed me a picture of the fantasy section from his recent trip to the bookstore, and all they carried of ASOIAF was a few paperback copies of AGOT. It was sad to see).

At this point, I’d like him to just put out some more DnE and FnB II. One day we’ll get a cobbled together version of his notes and drafts for TWOW/ADOS, but for whatever reason, he just can’t bring himself to finish the story.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the moderator for the SDCC panel bans any questions about future books.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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5 hours ago, Ran said:

SDCC is a work engagement on behalf of HBO in a way the SF cons aren’t, due to his role as an executive producer, so not exactly what he was thinking of when he discussed skipping con-going. But he’s already attended the Santa Fe Literary Festival, so his alleged promise is not, in any case, operative.

No man is so accursed as the Hypeslayer. :(

 

33 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

At this point, I’d like him to just put out some more DnE and FnB II.

I know that F&B has its' fans, but I don't think it's a worthy substitute for TWoW. It's like if someone promised you a cake but gave you a cookie instead.

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1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

No man is so accursed as the Hypeslayer. :(

 

I know that F&B has its' fans, but I don't think it's a worthy substitute for TWoW. It's like if someone promised you a cake but gave you a cookie instead.

I know, but it’s better than nothing at all.

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, a lot of people missed that Tyrion bringing us Sansa and Arya was what turned Jon against Dany. Up until then, he was able to rationalize what she did, even if he didn’t agree with it. The show kind of switched around the book relationships, making Sansa the sister Jon was ultimately closer with instead of Arya (just like how the show emphasized the Hound’s relationship with Arya instead of Sansa), but in the books it will probably be to save Arya, who will do something to cross Dany.

But this is a problem with both the acting and writing. Jon and Dany’s romance was both underwhelming and unconvincing, and even though Jon and Sansa had good screen chemistry, all they ever did was argue with each other. I can kind of understand the dumb incest-shipping fan wars when you consider how they pitted Sansa and Dany against each other as Jon’s “two women” (especially with the way they tried to make Jon and Sansa look like Ned and Cat). But it was all just so. . . bleh.

Sure, and one can also see why some are so wedded to the notion of Political Jon.  Pol Jon never loved Dany at all, but seduced her in order to get an army, while planning to murder her down the line, in order to be with Sansa, his true love.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Sure, and one can also see why some are so wedded to the notion of Political Jon.  Pol Jon never loved Dany at all, but seduced her in order to get an army, while planning to murder her down the line, in order to be with Sansa, his true love.

Yeah, except Jon just looked tired the whole time instead of in love with anyone. Sansa was the nag, Dany was the psycho, and poor ol’ Jon was stuck in the middle.

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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, except Jon just looked tired the whole time instead of in love with anyone. Sansa was the nag, Dany was the psycho, and poor ol’ Jon was stuck in the middle.

Jon was given almost no dialogue, and had to rely upon three facial expressions; confused, exhausted, or constipated.

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19 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Apparently, GRRM will be at SDCC this year to promote House of the Dragon. He said before that he won't visit major cons until Winds is finished, so either he will break that promise, or he is close to finishing the book. The former is definitely more likely, but a boy can dream.

Its very dumb that he is working on a Jon Snow sequel when that character in his own books is still officially dead. 

I guess I was a fan of him once, but now I just can't take him seriously, not his writing or himself as a person. I'm thinking most of the clues, hints, prophecies he littered throughout the series to keep people engaged with the intrigue are just red herrings or don't lead anywhere. 

I mean if he can't write the story then maybe it wasn't so well plotted out from the beginning and much of that 'deliberate' structure was an illusion.  

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15 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Its very dumb that he is working on a Jon Snow sequel when that character in his own books is still officially dead. 

I guess I was a fan of him once, but now I just can't take him seriously, not his writing or himself as a person. I'm thinking most of the clues, hints, prophecies he littered throughout the series to keep people engaged with the intrigue are just red herrings or don't lead anywhere. 

I mean if he can't write the story then maybe it wasn't so well plotted out from the beginning and much of that 'deliberate' structure was an illusion.  

I keep telling my friends, that Jon has been lying in the snow since 2011. I still remember watching the episode where the stabbing happens with my friends, a few years ago and the two of them just feeling nothing, from the moment. No shock, like when Ned or Robb died, just nothing. They're not book readers, but I often recall feeling the exact same way. At the moment, I sort of wish GRRM would have the balls to actually commit on killing Jon, but the longer he doesn't produce this book, I think the odds of that happening are becoming more and more slim. Like you said, the character in question is getting his own tv show, despite being murdered by his own men, when last we say him in the novels. Part of me wonders, if GRRM is struggling to bring Jon back, but not make it stupid like they did on the tv show. I recall they hardly even mention it, after the episode in which it happens. I know Davos says something very brief, when he talks to Dany, but aside from that, it's pretty much forgotten and Jon's just Jon again, only he's apparently allowed to leave The Wall and just abandons all of his friends there.

Edited by sifth
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19 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Apparently, GRRM will be at SDCC this year to promote House of the Dragon. He said before that he won't visit major cons until Winds is finished, so either he will break that promise, or he is close to finishing the book. The former is definitely more likely, but a boy can dream.

I think we all know the answer to this, so don't even bother trying to give people false hope. Remember when GRRM said he wouldn't be working on any other novels or projects until The Winds of Winter came out, back in 2016. Well here's Fire and Blood, also here's Elden Ring, here's two new shows he's producing. Expect nothing from GRRM when he makes a promise and you'll never be disappointed, I've learned that a while ago.

On the plus side, me and my friends are having a ball playing Elden Ring, so I'll thank GRRM a great deal for his involvement in that project, but I'm not sure it was worth the role it played in delaying The Winds of Winter.

Edited by sifth
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11 minutes ago, sifth said:

I keep telling my friends, that Jon has been lying in the snow since 2011. I still remember watching the episode where the stabbing happens with my friends, a few years ago and the two of them just feeling nothing, from the moment. No shock, like when Ned or Robb died, just nothing. They're not book readers, but I often recall feeling the exact same way. At the moment, I sort of wish GRRM would have the balls to actually commit on killing Jon, but the longer he doesn't produce this book, I think the odds of that happening are becoming more and more slim. Like you said, the character in question is getting his own tv show, despite being murdered by his own men, when last we say him in the novels. Part of me wonders, if GRRM is struggling to bring Jon back, but not make it stupid like they did on the tv show. I recall they hardly even mention it, after the episode in which it happens. I know Davos says something very brief, when he talks to Dany, but aside from that, it's pretty much forgotten and Jon's just Jon again, only he's apparently allowed to leave The Wall and just abandons all of his friends there.

Realistically, Jon should come back pretty damaged.  Assuming that he died, and was not simply badly injured.

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46 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I mean if he can't write the story then maybe it wasn't so well plotted out from the beginning and much of that 'deliberate' structure was an illusion.  

There was no deliberate structure, since GRRM doesn't like to outline his books. He says that outlines take all the fun out of writing.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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Err, he does have an outline. It is not some set-in-stone thing, however, and there are deliberate areas where it's open. But the destination is known.

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14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

There was no deliberate structure, since GRRM doesn't like to outline his books. He says that outlines take all the fun out of writing.

Well, we'll have to see if Patchface, The Ghost of High Heart, Azor Ahai, the house with the little red door, etc. mean anything. 

There are three possibilities: 

1. They are deliberate and tie back into a major reveal or clever twist

2. They gesture to something obvious that will happen regardless.  

3. Just gibberish meant to string readers along. 

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15 minutes ago, Ran said:

Err, he does have an outline. It is not some set-in-stone thing, however, and there are deliberate areas where it's open. But the destination is known.

Does he? Because he's seems to have changed a lot of stuff, especially when compared to his original story, where Jamie was suppose to remain a villain, Sansa was suppose to betray her family and Tyrion and Jon were suppose to fall in love with Arya. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad those changes were made, but I'm not sure if George knows where the end points for those characters are, now that the changes have been made. I certainly hope it's a different end point than the show gave us, but at this point I don't know what to believe from this series. 

Heck even the abandoned 5 year time skip has surely had some change on the end point as well.

Edited by sifth
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8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well, we'll have to see if Patchface, The Ghost of High Heart, Azor Ahai, the house with the little red door, etc. mean anything. 

Even in the cases where he does plan something, he can change his mind anytime. We know from the 1993 pitch letter that Jaime was supposed to become king, and there is some foreshadowing for it in AGoT. But then he decided to go in a different direction with Jaime, so that foreshadowing didn't amount to anything.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Even in the cases where he does plan something, he can change his mind anytime. We know from the 1993 pitch letter that Jaime was supposed to become king, and there is some foreshadowing for it in AGoT. But then he decided to go in a different direction with Jaime, so that foreshadowing didn't amount to anything.

It..................subverted are expectations, lol

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