Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Does that matter?  If we go by maternal lines, his mother's father was a Blackwood, and his mother's mother was from a different house.  Targaryen blood is interesting since fire clearly played a role in the resurrection.

In magical terms, it doesn't matter; he has the dragon blood, so we might reasonably assume he has inherited their sorcery, however much (beyond dragon dreams and dragonriding) that might entail.

That said, I'm still more inclined to believe that it was the R'hllorist Last Rites that performed the miracle, even if it was unintentional.

GRRM once talked about the religions of the world during a Q&A in Guadalajara, and in it he mentioned that the Red Faith is, by far, the most popular religion in Essos, and joked that having priests that can bring back the dead is a pretty appealing recruitment tool.

Now, granted, that's clearly being said somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I believe that what we're seeing is a part of an overall pattern of magic getting stronger, and previously inert spells and rituals suddenly gaining power; while we haven't seen any other resurrections, Moqorro seems to have done something to Victarion with magic, so it does seem like the Red Priests have real power at their disposal.

[Black Crow]

There's no reason to suppose so far that Beric Dondarrion's pick me up didn't come from the Red lot

However, if we turn back to Jon there's another possible parallel that deserves some exploration.

Bloodraven was always assumed to be a Targaryen and right up to until Bran Stark enters a certain cave in the Haunted Forest, everything we hear about him tells us that

Then, in the cave, we learn that although he has a Targaryen father, he's really Brynden/Bryn/Bran Blackwood, he's the Three-eyed Crow and his eldrich powers actually come from the Old lot not the Dragons

Jon Snow, by popular report [among readers at least] also has a Targaryen father, but he's really a Stark of Winterfell with the powers of that house rather than the Dragons

Then of course there's the Mummers' version which subscribes to R+L=J, but finishes off without his gaining the Iron Throne and killing off the Dragons rather than the Others...

[alienarea]

58 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

There's no reason to suppose so far that Beric Dondarrion's pick me up didn't come from the Red lot

However, if we turn back to Jon there's another possible parallel that deserves some exploration.

Bloodraven was always assumed to be a Targaryen and right up to until Bran Stark enters a certain cave in the Haunted Forest, everything we hear about him tells us that

Then, in the cave, we learn that although he has a Targaryen father, he's really Brynden/Bryn/Bran Blackwood, he's the Three-eyed Crow and his eldrich powers actually come from the Old lot not the Dragons

Jon Snow, by popular report [among readers at least] also has a Targaryen father, but he's really a Stark of Winterfell with the powers of that house rather than the Dragons

Then of course there's the Mummers' version which subscribes to R+L=J, but finishes off without his gaining the Iron Throne and killing off the Dragons rather than the Others...

In hindsight, the most problematic part of the tv series is the Night's King 2.0.

We do not have that character in the books.

The only significant thing Jon does in the tv series after being resurrected is killing Ramsay.

Which makes me wonder whether in the books

- the tv scenes with Jon and Daenerys become Daenerys and fAegon

- Theon kills Ramsay with a grey goose arrow

- Jon not only feels the cold but becomes the Night's King 2.0

???

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

In hindsight, the most problematic part of the tv series is the Night's King 2.0.

We do not have that character in the books.

The only significant thing Jon does in the tv series after being resurrected is killing Ramsay.

Which makes me wonder whether in the books

- the tv scenes with Jon and Daenerys become Daenerys and fAegon

- Theon kills Ramsay with a grey goose arrow

- Jon not only feels the cold but becomes the Night's King 2.0

???

 

I think that you're right in suggesting that the Mummers' farce saw actions by characters who didn't make it on to the screen transferred to "established" characters - and Aegon [fake or otherwise] is an obvious one. Whatever his ultimate fate he's going to do things in the book[s] which will impact on the story and as he's not in the Mummers' version somebody else is going to have to do them.

That being the case, "the tv scenes with Jon and Daenerys" very likely are scenes from the book involving "Daenerys and fAegon" - and if so, that and others may well reflect Jon's true destiny in the North

[Brad Stark]

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think it does. He himself says that she named him Brynder/Brandon [Bryn/Bran] at her breast andhe was brought up among the crows at Blackwood Hall

Welcome back to Heresy by the way 

Thanks.  I gave up on this forum as it seemed like it was going over the same ground repeatedly.  That problem hasn't gone away, but I am starved for ASOIAF content given the lack of recent publications.  I have very low expectations for either the HBO series or GRRM publishing anything other than blog posts.

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There's no reason to suppose so far that Beric Dondarrion's pick me up didn't come from the Red lot

However, if we turn back to Jon there's another possible parallel that deserves some exploration.

Bloodraven was always assumed to be a Targaryen and right up to until Bran Stark enters a certain cave in the Haunted Forest, everything we hear about him tells us that

Then, in the cave, we learn that although he has a Targaryen father, he's really Brynden/Bryn/Bran Blackwood, he's the Three-eyed Crow and his eldrich powers actually come from the Old lot not the Dragons

Jon Snow, by popular report [among readers at least] also has a Targaryen father, but he's really a Stark of Winterfell with the powers of that house rather than the Dragons

Then of course there's the Mummers' version which subscribes to R+L=J, but finishes off without his gaining the Iron Throne and killing off the Dragons rather than the Others...

We have a clear pattern of magic increasing - many things like Beric's resurrection would be impossible a generation ago.  This gives us clues at to what is responsible, what changed?

The obvious change is the return of the dragons.  Dany's chapters seem to tell us that they are bringing magic back into the world.  This fits with BR's Targaryen blood giving him power he never had before.  Do we know if Beric came back for the dragons hatched?

We also have the birth of Bran.  If Bran can change the past, there is no reason to believe his influence would focus on events in his lifetime, and if he can't (or if this isn't a large part of his power) then he's still too young/untrained to have brought Beric back.  The only way Bran is responsible for the general rise in magic (such as the trees having eyes again) is if he's somehow powering everything by Osmosis like Danny in the Shining.  This doesn't mean we can't have time traveling Bran do specific things like choose to bring Beric back, just that something else likely is responsible for the general increase in magic.

This also raises the question of how special Bran is and why.  Could Rob have been a Greenseer?  Or Ned or Cat?  If not, then ancestry is not the only factor.  My theory is that we have a bootstrap paradox - Bran's genetic gift is no different from his siblings, but in the future he is a powerful greenseer manipulating the past to make himself a powerful greenseer.  This makes Jojenpaste much worse - Bran didn't unknowingly eat his friend, but instead choose his friend and sent him on the journey specifically to be eaten.

The other explanation is Mance dug something up other than dead bodies and horns.

The Red lot itself does not seem to have gotten much stronger.  Mel is stronger at the wall, but otherwise seems to be relying on the same tricks she's used for a long time with a mix of real magic she seems familiar with.  Thoros himself seems surprised Beric came back, and it seems he and the other Red Priests performed the same ritual many times without results.  Compare that to the House of the Undying for example, and how much stronger they got.

 

 

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that you're right in suggesting that the Mummers' farce saw actions by characters who didn't make it on to the screen transferred to "established" characters - and Aegon [fake or otherwise] is an obvious one. Whatever his ultimate fate he's going to do things in the book[s] which will impact on the story and as he's not in the Mummers' version somebody else is going to have to do them.

That being the case, "the tv scenes with Jon and Daenerys" very likely are scenes from the book involving "Daenerys and fAegon" - and if so, that and others may well reflect Jon's true destiny in the North

I do like the idea of Jon actually being the Night's King in the Mummer's version, and fAegon falling in love with Dany who is his sister and killing her when she does awful things.  This fits wonderfully with GRRMs style, as well as the changes Benioff and Weiss would make to cut the number of characters and keep everyone's favorite Harington as a perfect do-gooder instead of becoming one of the gray characters GRRM would write about.

I still like fAegon as Illyrio's son better though, and I don't think there is any way to make both these work.  We have room for Dany's parents to turn out to be a surprise, with Lemongate and her resemblance to Ashara.  But Dany as the daughter of Illyrio or either of his wives is just too big a leap.

[LongRider]

37 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

  Do we know if Beric came back for the dragons hatched?

According to the linked timeline, the dragon's hatched 1/23/299

Hand tourney 9/22-23/299

Beric and party leave KL to search for Gregor Clegane, 10/6/299

Arya rides with BwB 10/25/299

Sandor tried for murder by BwB, he has trial by combat where he kills Beric.   Beric brought back to life, again, by Thoros  11/17/299

 

The dragon's hatch first, and Beric is first brought by Thoros months later.  

ASOIAF Timeline - Vandal Proof - Google Sheets

 

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The obvious change is the return of the dragons.  Dany's chapters seem to tell us that they are bringing magic back into the world.  This fits with BR's Targaryen blood giving him power he never had before. 

Interesting point, and although I'm still reluctant to attribute the Riverlands events to Bloodraven, the BwB using a (presumably) former CotF cavern filled with weirwood roots as their hidey hole is difficult to entirely dismiss.

To reiterate your former point, even though Bloodraven has the powers of a greenseer, there's no particular reason to believe he hasn't also recently gained access to previously dormant Valyrian magic--and perhaps even understands it better than his post-Doom predecessors, depending on just how much history and information weirnet is able to draw upon.

In other words, there's no reason to believe he can't draw upon the magic of both bloodlines.

[Matthew.]

doh, double post

[alienarea]

12 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Interesting point, and although I'm still reluctant to attribute the Riverlands events to Bloodraven, the BwB using a (presumably) former CotF cavern filled with weirwood roots as their hidey hole is difficult to entirely dismiss.

To reiterate your former point, even though Bloodraven has the powers of a greenseer, there's no particular reason to believe he hasn't also recently gained access to previously dormant Valyrian magic--and perhaps even understands it better than his post-Doom predecessors, depending on just how much history and information weirnet is able to draw upon.

In other words, there's no reason to believe he can't draw upon the magic of both bloodlines.

In real life history, magic was a label for physics and or forces of nature mankind didn't understand back then.

If we treat magic as a label, then ice and fire magic are different aspects of the same physics, which may or may not require the red comet.

Bloodraven is (was?) knowledgeable about more aspects of magic than anyone we know of. He's the prince that was promised regarding magic.

And he's kind of John the Baptist to Jon 'Jesus' Snow.

Bran, of course, is the Devil.

 

[LynnS]

On 6/29/2022 at 10:20 AM, Brad Stark said:

Was there a passage cautioning Bran not to try to bring someone back from the dead?  I remember this, but can't find it.

Hello Brad Stark!

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Tell us what you saw." From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.

Bran's throat was very dry. He swallowed. "Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive."

"No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."

 

Not exactly saying it can't be done; but a warning about calling someone back.  After all Bran is well aware that Coldhands is a dead thing and he has seen the wights.

The idea that magical powers are growing and more accessible to BR is interesting.  Not forgetting that the GOHH told Beric that he wouldn't be able to see anything his his fires; that the weirwood stumps still had power, contradicts the fact that Thoros was still able to raise Beric ,after Sandor killed him.   So either Thoros' magic, in this regard is strong, or the old gods didn't or couldn't interefere.  The same with Lady Stoneheart.  Beric was able to pass on whatever force animated him.  What propelled him and how did he know?

 

 

 

 

[LynnS]

On 6/30/2022 at 9:58 AM, Black Crow said:

That being the case, "the tv scenes with Jon and Daenerys" very likely are scenes from the book involving "Daenerys and fAegon" - and if so, that and others may well reflect Jon's true destiny in the North

This is really interesting also and I think likely.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is really interesting also and I think likely.

It also goes back to the OP. We don't know how much the Mummers actually know about how all of this ends, but...

As subscribers to R+L=J it would be reasonable for them to present the story accordingly, with Jon revealed and taking the Iron Throne and of course defeating the Dark and Cold as Azor Ahai

He didn't, much to the anguish of the Faithful. So what is his role/fate ?

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

So what is his role/fate ?

Well, I don't really know.  If he is a mix of ice and fire bloodlines; I'm holding out for Jon to be the ice dragon, Dany's opposite.

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, I don't really know.  If he is a mix of ice and fire bloodlines; I'm holding out for Jon to be the ice dragon, Dany's opposite.

From Jon's "Darth Vader Dream" he seems to be destined to become Night's King 2.0 - though different than in the show.

And he may die at peace when he reaches the crypts of Winterfell.

I  don't think Arya will kill the Night's King (Jon) in the books.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, I don't really know.  If he is a mix of ice and fire bloodlines; I'm holding out for Jon to be the ice dragon, Dany's opposite.

As an aside, ice dragons - the mythical beasts, not the constellation - go unmentioned in ASOIAF up until ADWD, where they get a couple recurring references, all in Jon chapters. Maybe nothing, or maybe a bit of foreshadowing, if one is inclined to interpret Jon as some sort of champion of Ice.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

From Jon's "Darth Vader Dream" he seems to be destined to become Night's King 2.0 - though different than in the show.

And he may die at peace when he reaches the crypts of Winterfell.

I  don't think Arya will kill the Night's King (Jon) in the books.

The Darth Vader thing seems more relevant to Dany, in that she sees Rhaegar in his armor, but when she opens the visor, it's her face.  

Not sure what the Vader-ish thing is for Jon.  His parentage for sure.  Ned isn't his father but rather his uncle.

Jon could be set up as the NK v2.0.  Or Stannis or Euron.  Will the real Night King, please stand up!  Or all of them could fit the bill in one way or another.  

If Jon is undead; I think Arya could give him the gift of mercy, coming under the category of the things we do for love.

[LynnS]

48 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

As an aside, ice dragons - the mythical beasts, not the constellation - go unmentioned in ASOIAF up until ADWD, where they get a couple recurring references, all in Jon chapters. Maybe nothing, or maybe a bit of foreshadowing, if one is inclined to interpret Jon as some sort of champion of Ice.

Hello Matthew!

Yes, there are quite a few references to the Wall like a dragon and riding the Wall.  If Jon harnesses the power of the Wall as Mel suggests;  it would be lie riding the dragon, a magical power that is dangerous and difficult to control.  The sword without a hilt - there is no safe way to grasp it.

[Black Crow]

I don't think that we necessarily need to get tied up in looking for the appearance of an actual Ice Dragon

If these references are to have any significance I think its simply in pointing Jon towards that side of the conflict rather than the Valyrian/Fire so confidently predicted by the Faithful