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Heresy 242 Jon Stark


Black Crow

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Something else to bear in mind is GRRM's dislike of black and white.

We're gradually getting to know more of "the other side", most notably through Varamyr, it would make sense to delve deeper through Jon rather than exalt him as Azor Ahai

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13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think that we necessarily need to get tied up in looking for the appearance of an actual Ice Dragon

If these references are to have any significance I think its simply in pointing Jon towards that side of the conflict rather than the Valyrian/Fire so confidently predicted by the Faithful

Metaphorically speaking, Jon himself would be the ice dragon.  

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On 7/2/2022 at 2:06 PM, Black Crow said:

Something else to bear in mind is GRRM's dislike of black and white.

We're gradually getting to know more of "the other side", most notably through Varamyr, it would make sense to delve deeper through Jon rather than exalt him as Azor Ahai

This is exactly wrong with the mummer's version.  We have the Night's King and his Others - the nameless blackest of black most evil non-GRRM characters threatening to destroy the world.  As much as I'd like to see Jon or Benjen or even Bran in that role, even if I am wrong, I'm willing to bet GRRM has a POV character for the enemy.

The end of Dance is badly lacking villains.  Of course we have Cersei and Ramsay, but Euron just appeared out of nowhere.  I think he goes away just as fast as he arrived, and both Ramsay and Euron are only there to give Theon a redemption arc.  Of course Dany landing in Westerous and attacking other 'Good'' characters makes everything interesting again, but there is too much build up around the Others for them to not to play a big part.  We have enough from GRRM about the French fighting each other for power as Hitler invaded to know Cersei plays that role.   We are heading towards a big war with the Others on one side and POV characters on both sides.

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It rather depends on how we define villains, and in his commentary GRRM has been very cautious about this.

So far as the story so far goes we have two major differences in level

In real time [for lack of a better way of putting it] there's a fairly straightforward conflict. The Lannisters are taking over Westeros and fighting off both their original rivals, such as the Starks and the Baratheons, and opportunists such as the Ironborn and the Targaryen pretenders. 

All of them are perfectly understandable. They may be good, bad or crazy, but we know who they are and where they're coming from

Below that surface, there's another parallel conflict, which easy readers are seeing in Mel's terms. It's between Light and Dark, or if you prefer, Ice and Fire, but we don't really know what's going on. We're told a hero will arise [Azor Ahai]] to win an absolutely essential victory, but we're also starting to get suggestions that its more complicated, and above all at one and the same time while we're aware that we don't know what's on the other side there are suggestions that the Starks are leaning to the "other" side.

Where do the Children stand, especially given Bran's situation?

Why was it so important to be told Varamyr's story and indeed what's so important about skinchangers

And going on from there, what of Jon?

I can remember some years ago, one of the Faithful expressed a hope that a stabbed Jon would be revived and that his hair would be changed in the process to a silvery white, proclaiming his Targaryen heritage and purpose. 

So what if its not ?

 

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The 2nd conflict you list - Mel's Fire vs Ice, is not straightforward.  Other than a few rare glimpses into the Others, we have no hard evidence this is real and not just in Mel's head.  From the buildup in the novels and things GRRM said outside the novels, we can be certain this is going to be a real conflict and a big one.  If so, it follows we will get real POV characters on both sides - unlike the show which invented a wooden headed non-character to lead one side.

We have to assume Bran, BR and Leaf are on the side against the Others, unless the whole thing was a ruse to recruit Bran to their side, but I don't see that as likely.  It is possible there are factions of Children on both sides.

"Why is it important..." we could ask that about a lot of things.  Unfortunately, at least for for some of them, the answer will be that GRRM is better at creating than cutting, and we have too much material that isn't important but seems so.

I do think we will see dragons and Others being Skinchangers transformed by magic.  The first dragon was a Targaryen who sacrificed himself to give his family power.  We have some evidence that Dany's dragons (and possibly Aegon III's attempt at Summerhall) required the death of 3 people.  We have the riddle of the Targaryen Sphinx.  We have GRRM's answer to the question whether someone can Warg a dragon - that there are things about dragons people have forgotten.  We also have story of the Night's King with the clue that all knowledge about him was wiped - what did he know that was so important to get rid of?  And Varamyr's story shows the Others in a very similar way to being powerful skinchangers.

Jon himself is a powerful skinchanger, and that supports my idea of him coming back as an Other or working with them.

Jon coming back with Targaryen hair makes no sense.  Without other evidence, the reaction is likely to be "wow, you look just like a Targaryen.  You should be careful with that".

 

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

The 2nd conflict you list - Mel's Fire vs Ice, is not straightforward.  Other than a few rare glimpses into the Others, we have no hard evidence this is real and not just in Mel's head.  From the buildup in the novels and things GRRM said outside the novels, we can be certain this is going to be a real conflict and a big one.  If so, it follows we will get real POV characters on both sides - unlike the show which invented a wooden headed non-character to lead one side.

We have to assume Bran, BR and Leaf are on the side against the Others, unless the whole thing was a ruse to recruit Bran to their side, but I don't see that as likely.  It is possible there are factions of Children on both sides.

"Why is it important..." we could ask that about a lot of things.  Unfortunately, at least for for some of them, the answer will be that GRRM is better at creating than cutting, and we have too much material that isn't important but seems so.

I do think we will see dragons and Others being Skinchangers transformed by magic.  The first dragon was a Targaryen who sacrificed himself to give his family power.  We have some evidence that Dany's dragons (and possibly Aegon III's attempt at Summerhall) required the death of 3 people.  We have the riddle of the Targaryen Sphinx.  We have GRRM's answer to the question whether someone can Warg a dragon - that there are things about dragons people have forgotten.  We also have story of the Night's King with the clue that all knowledge about him was wiped - what did he know that was so important to get rid of?  And Varamyr's story shows the Others in a very similar way to being powerful skinchangers.

Jon himself is a powerful skinchanger, and that supports my idea of him coming back as an Other or working with them.

Jon coming back with Targaryen hair makes no sense.  Without other evidence, the reaction is likely to be "wow, you look just like a Targaryen.  You should be careful with that".

 

Agree mostly, but wouldn't it make much more sense for Benjen to be Night's King 2.0?

- he was the Stark in Winterfell during Robert's rebellion. He possibly was told things Ned never knew.

- he joins the Nightwatch when Ned returns from the war. Maybe with a plan?

- as the first ranger he supposedly went for long rangings alone. Or was he just building up the Others?

- the Night's King was brought down by the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the Wildlings. Night's King 2.0 will bring down the wildlings and the Stark of Winterfell?

- Jon could be resurrected by ice and become our POV with the Night's King.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We have to assume Bran, BR and Leaf are on the side against the Others, unless the whole thing was a ruse to recruit Bran to their side, but I don't see that as likely.

On this note, I'm curious as to whether or not the CotF know what Bran is doing to Hodor in stealing his body--and if they don't know, whether this discovery would be met with horror or indifference.

We can't yet know for sure the motives of the CotF and BR, but we do know Bran, and Bran has shown himself (thus far) to be someone who is willing to abuse his powers, even when he knows that what he's doing scares Hodor.

This willingness to abuse his powers potentially becomes important when we consider that, as of Bran III ADWD, Bran still didn't know about the Red Wedding, and all that has befallen House Stark.

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35 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

On this note, I'm curious as to whether or not the CotF know what Bran is doing to Hodor in stealing his body--and if they don't know, whether this discovery would be met with horror or indifference.

We can't yet know for sure the motives of the CotF and BR, but we do know Bran, and Bran has shown himself (thus far) to be someone who is willing to abuse his powers, even when he knows that what he's doing scares Hodor.

This willingness to abuse his powers potentially becomes important when we consider that, as of Bran III ADWD, Bran still didn't know about the Red Wedding, and all that has befallen House Stark.

Given the way that Bloodraven and the Children have actively sought out and are absorbing Bran I would say that they know exactly what they're getting

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17 hours ago, alienarea said:

Agree mostly, but wouldn't it make much more sense for Benjen to be Night's King 2.0?

- he was the Stark in Winterfell during Robert's rebellion. He possibly was told things Ned never knew.

- he joins the Nightwatch when Ned returns from the war. Maybe with a plan?

- as the first ranger he supposedly went for long rangings alone. Or was he just building up the Others?

- the Night's King was brought down by the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the Wildlings. Night's King 2.0 will bring down the wildlings and the Stark of Winterfell?

- Jon could be resurrected by ice and become our POV with the Night's King.

 

 

 

I'm wary of the entire concept of the Nights King 2.0 which I think owes too much to the Mummers' farce, but nevertheless given that Jon seems not destined to ascend to the Iron Throne, I and it appears others here, are more and more convinced that his his future does indeed lie in the north - and in the "other" side in the conflict between Ice and Fire

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34 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

given that Jon seems not destined to ascend to the Iron Throne, I and it appears others here, are more and more convinced that his his future does indeed lie in the north - and in the "other" side in the conflict between Ice and Fire

But what is the "other".  I reread the prologue to Dance again this spring and what I noticed was that when Varamyr's father discovered he was a warg, he didn't kill him but took him to Haggon who told him he needed to be with his own kind and began to school Varamyr on how to warg.  Wargs are more accepted South of the Wall. Many of the free folk recognize Jon as a warg; Tormund who told him when he first met him "Well met, Jon Snow. I am fond o' wargs, as it happens, though not o' Starks."  Borroq also called him 'brother.'

So, what I'm trying to say is, I don't think Jon is dead and during his healing and recovery, he'll finally accept he's a warg and learn the warging skills he needs.  

Also, Jon was stabbed due to his accepting the free folks as those within the realms of men and brought them through the Wall.   The 'others' he could side with could the free folk, they accept him as warg, respect him as LC and as a man, and, after the stabbing and all hell breaks loose, the free folk might again be seen as the enemy.  This could bring Jon the dilemma, whom does he fight for, who against.? How will he bring the free folk and the Northerner's together to fight the big bad?  The human heart in conflict with itself.

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

I'm wary of the entire concept of the Nights King 2.0 which I think owes too much to the Mummers' farce, but nevertheless given that Jon seems not destined to ascend to the Iron Throne, I and it appears others here, are more and more convinced that his his future does indeed lie in the north - and in the "other" side in the conflict between Ice and Fire

If the Others in the books have a person who commands them (male/female/witch/king/greenseer ... whoever), it needs to be a person who was in charge at the beginning of the series.

As the Night's King was a Stark, and the series is about ice and fire, Benjen is the only option.

 

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16 hours ago, alienarea said:

If the Others in the books have a person who commands them (male/female/witch/king/greenseer ... whoever), it needs to be a person who was in charge at the beginning of the series.

As the Night's King was a Stark, and the series is about ice and fire, Benjen is the only option.

 

That, I think, is a pretty important point.

I'm dubious about Benjen, given that he essentially had a walk-on part early in the first book and hasn't been seen since. That's not to say he won't turn up again, but I really don't see him revealed as an important figure.

Jon and/or Bran on the other hand has potential, but is it any more than that?

Is there really a big bad on either side. In the books there's no sign of the Nights King who provided the enemy in the Mummers' version, and nor on the other hand is there an Azor Ahai or anybody else. Arguably Danaerys the Dragonlord might be shaping up to it, but if she is its not conscious, and that I think is true of a lot of others. Their actions and some of their motives may align with Ice or with Fire, but that's not the same as leading a crusade 

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39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That, I think, is a pretty important point.

I'm dubious about Benjen, given that he essentially had a walk-on part early in the first book and hasn't been seen since. That's not to say he won't turn up again, but I really don't see him revealed as an important figure.

Jon and/or Bran on the other hand has potential, but is it any more than that?

Is there really a big bad on either side. In the books there's no sign of the Nights King who provided the enemy in the Mummers' version, and nor on the other hand is there an Azor Ahai or anybody else. Arguably Danaerys the Dragonlord might be shaping up to it, but if she is its not conscious, and that I think is true of a lot of others. Their actions and some of their motives may align with Ice or with Fire, but that's not the same as leading a crusade 

I guess we are looking at a crucial aspect of ASoIaF in terms of storytelling.

Most of the people who are reading fantasy literature were probably brought up with classic Greek, Nordic, ... stories  that have heroes and villains. And are expecting classic storytelling, i.e. a hero's journey.

GRRM has created his trademark style of subverting tropes, but I wonder whether subverting too many tropes lead him into a corner he cannot get out in terms of storytelling.

If ASoIaF were to finish without a Night's King 2.0, it might be received as underwhelming.

The Night King of the tv series didn't have a backstory, was killed off with a cartoonish Ninja move, but it somehow worked as it was visually brilliant (and we would not have accepted it from anyone except everybody's darling Arya).

Would that work in the books? You bet not. 
 

In my understanding of storytelling, the whole Jon Snow story, including getting killed by his own men, would make much more sense for Benjen. One more issue with the main characters being too young - GRRM has too much timeline to fill.

I voiced it now and then that the books should end with ADwD, and that would be fitting for subverting some more tropes. No conclusion, and each of us can create his own ending in his/her mind.

 

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It's very much in GRRM's wheelhouse to make the "antagonist" a sympathetic figure.  And more specifically it's also in his wheelhouse to make the antagonist a collective consciousness/hive mind of telepaths.

Which makes the weirnet the most likely source for me of the Others, with their agenda specifically against the human element on Westeros that have almost caused their weirwoods  to go extinct.

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My other suspicion is that we're not going to see one climatic battle of "good" vs "evil".

GRRM's basic default position is that battles are evils in and of themselves.  

Now add to this mix the idea that GRRM has introduced that the magic in his series is often fueled by blood.  

So if the Weirnet wants to create a catyclismic event, perhaps even bigger than the Hammer of Waters event in the past, it may require a huge sacrifice of blood.  

What better way to do that than help forment widespread conflict.  Encourage warfare in the North and the South and use the humans' own bloodlust to fuel your revenge plan.

And my suspicion is that they want a spell to drag down our Chekov's comet into the planet.  More specifically, drag it into the Frost Fangs glacier and create an apocalypse.

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51 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's very much in GRRM's wheelhouse to make the "antagonist" a sympathetic figure.  And more specifically it's also in his wheelhouse to make the antagonist a collective consciousness/hive mind of telepaths.

Which makes the weirnet the most likely source for me of the Others, with their agenda specifically against the human element on Westeros that have almost caused their weirwoods  to go extinct.

 

45 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

My other suspicion is that we're not going to see one climatic battle of "good" vs "evil".

GRRM's basic default position is that battles are evils in and of themselves.  

Now add to this mix the idea that GRRM has introduced that the magic in his series is often fueled by blood.  

So if the Weirnet wants to create a catyclismic event, perhaps even bigger than the Hammer of Waters event in the past, it may require a huge sacrifice of blood.  

What better way to do that than help forment widespread conflict.  Encourage warfare in the North and the South and use the humans' own bloodlust to fuel your revenge plan.

And my suspicion is that they want a spell to drag down our Chekov's comet into the planet.  More specifically, drag it into the Frost Fangs glacier and create an apocalypse.

That might well be GRRMs plan. But it's an ending fitting for a short story, not a large saga like ASoIaF.

It would probably be better to stop working on the books and have another medium develop another ending, regardless how cheesy it will feel.

Oh, wait ...  :P

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On 7/4/2022 at 6:14 PM, alienarea said:

Agree mostly, but wouldn't it make much more sense for Benjen to be Night's King 2.0?

- he was the Stark in Winterfell during Robert's rebellion. He possibly was told things Ned never knew.

- he joins the Nightwatch when Ned returns from the war. Maybe with a plan?

- as the first ranger he supposedly went for long rangings alone. Or was he just building up the Others?

- the Night's King was brought down by the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the Wildlings. Night's King 2.0 will bring down the wildlings and the Stark of Winterfell?

- Jon could be resurrected by ice and become our POV with the Night's King.

 

 

I like this idea.  We have Gared, Will and Waymar meet the Others, 2 are killed, 1 is driven insane.  Benjen should have been able to track them easily, and so he likely encountered the Others.  It is unlikely the same fate happened to him, as we know Craster lied about seeing Benjen.  My theory was that his Stark blood gives him a special connection to the Others, which bow down before him as their King, and he's been visiting Craster to take sons.  All of this fits - except Benjen isn't a POV character, and we need a POV characters on both sides of this conflict.

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9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I like this idea.  We have Gared, Will and Waymar meet the Others, 2 are killed, 1 is driven insane.  Benjen should have been able to track them easily, and so he likely encountered the Others.  It is unlikely the same fate happened to him, as we know Craster lied about seeing Benjen.  My theory was that his Stark blood gives him a special connection to the Others, which bow down before him as their King, and he's been visiting Craster to take sons.  All of this fits - except Benjen isn't a POV character, and we need a POV characters on both sides of this conflict.

The last thing Jon feels is the cold. Jon could be risen by ice and become the pov we need. He followed Benjen to join the Nightwatch, that would come naturally.

Of course, in the end, maybe after finding a dead Arya with Needle in her hands, he would overthrow Benjen and end the White Walkers (and himself).

But maybe I've seen too many Star Wars movies :P

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10 hours ago, alienarea said:

The last thing Jon feels is the cold. Jon could be risen by ice and become the pov we need. He followed Benjen to join the Nightwatch, that would come naturally.

Ultimately yes, I strongly believe that this is where this is going. Jon is going to emerge as the missing and so badly needed POV for Ice. 

Although GRRM has hinted at a darker turn in Jon I think that such a POV will provide a different picture to that painted by Mel

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