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Heresy 242 Jon Stark


Black Crow

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Wow, perhaps the most explicit GRRM has ever been on the difference between the show and his book:

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

 

I'm curious who died in the show and will live in the books.

Missandei (because she's ten (?) in the books)

Rickon?

Mance

And who might die but lived in the television series?

Arya

Bronn

 

 

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Adding to “Still breathing in books yet now deader than a doornail in the TV show”:

Ser Barry (POV)

Theon (POV)

Ser Jorah

Melisandre POV

Stannis Baratheon POV

Cersei Lannister POV

Jamie Lannister POV

some of these will definitely die: I see Stannis, Cersei, Jaime, Mel and Barry not sure about the rest

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Long time lurker...(I did find the JS is being chased and hungry quote)...I do think the connection to LOTR is not nearly discussed enough in realation to *what is really happening*....GRRM is writing the anti-LOTR... Tolkien had a very detailed meta-physics (psudo-Paganism

/Catholism) that underlaid his stories (and languages)...GRRM rather pointedly does not and I think that aim is something Heresy has not addressed...there is something to be discussed in what is intentionally not being included.

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Maglor78 said:

Long time lurker...(I did find the JS is being chased and hungry quote)...I do think the connection to LOTR is not nearly discussed enough in realation to *what is really happening*....GRRM is writing the anti-LOTR... Tolkien had a very detailed meta-physics (psudo-Paganism

/Catholism) that underlaid his stories (and languages)...GRRM rather pointedly does not and I think that aim is something Heresy has not addressed...there is something to be discussed in what is intentionally not being included.

 

 

 

 

 

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... responding to my own above...perhaps there was never any thought out system but just some loose rules/effects regarding magic/warning he's never reconciled...maybe the magic moments that leave the first narrative have no meaning...last bit of LOTR does the same...there are soo many Westros theory's (online) based on a purported system but maybe there is none.

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20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Wow, perhaps the most explicit GRRM has ever been on the difference between the show and his book:

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

 

This paragraph:
 

Quote

I have been at work in my winter garden.   Things are growing… and changing, as does happen with us gardeners.   Things twist, things change, new ideas come to me (thank you, muse), old ideas prove unworkable, I write, I rewrite, I restructure, I rip everything apart and rewrite again, I go through doors that lead nowhere, and doors that open on marvels.

...is a pretty good summary of why these books are taking an eternity to come out. Fans who were around during the wait for ADWD, back when it was supposed to be the fourth book (and there was supposed to be a five year gap) will recall similar comments about how much he rewrites. The manuscript that was eventually split into AGOT and ACOK (and again into ASOS) faced similar issues.

I've expressed this sentiment before, but I suspect that if GRRM had resigned himself years ago to the notion that he probably can't finish within just two books that, paradoxically, he would actually be making quicker progress--the more he's allowed to sit on these giant manuscripts, without having a portion split and published, the more materials he can go back and rewrite every time he has a new idea, all while he tries to make too many plots work within a single volume.

I'm glad he's motivated to finish, but I kind of wish he had gone in the direction of publishing several "smaller" volumes - say, in the range of 400 to 600 pages - at a regular pace, rather than sitting around and working on one bloated volume for decades at a time.

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This has to get split.  Dance was 11 years ago.  He released probably 200 pages in the first year, and said 2021 was productive, but not as much as 2020.  What is productive?  If he averages a page a day and on average rewrites every page once, that's 2000 pages so far.  At this point, he probably has as much pull with his publisher as any author ever did, but no one is going to publish a 2000 page novel.

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On 7/9/2022 at 3:25 AM, Maglor78 said:

Long time lurker...(I did find the JS is being chased and hungry quote)...I do think the connection to LOTR is not nearly discussed enough in realation to *what is really happening*....GRRM is writing the anti-LOTR... Tolkien had a very detailed meta-physics (psudo-Paganism

/Catholism) that underlaid his stories (and languages)...GRRM rather pointedly does not and I think that aim is something Heresy has not addressed...there is something to be discussed in what is intentionally not being included.

 

 

 

 

 

On 7/9/2022 at 3:34 AM, Maglor78 said:

... responding to my own above...perhaps there was never any thought out system but just some loose rules/effects regarding magic/warning he's never reconciled...maybe the magic moments that leave the first narrative have no meaning...last bit of LOTR does the same...there are soo many Westros theory's (online) based on a purported system but maybe there is none.

JRRT was a Christian, and took a Christian worldview of both the real world and Middle Earth.  Ilúvatar is God, an all powerful deity who creates the world and humans and other beings.   Melkor is Lucifer, the strongest of God's creations who rebels against the creator.  The God vs Satan story is copied exactly from Christianity without alteration or imagination.  The Ainur and Valar are both the Pagan concept of gods and also the Christian concept of angels.  We have gods (Gandolf, Sauron, Saruman) that 'appear on screen' and have major roles in the story. 

GRRM is an atheist, and I suspect he has an atheist view of Westerous as well as the real world.  He told us no gods would ever 'appear on screen' and it is up to the reader whether the gods exist or not.  This is very close to saying that Westerous gods are made-up and do not actually exist.  At very least, we know any concept of the creation of the world, life after death, supernatural beings, etc is completely irrelevant to the story.

GRRM did say that magic needs to be mysterious, that there are no rules, and no system of rules would ever be explained.

 

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I'm very much in agreement with this and its a major reason why I'm very strongly against R+L=J

While I'm open these days to the possibility that Jon may indeed be the son of Rhaegar in a matter of simple family history, I remain opposed to the "high" notion back in the day that as a result Jon was going to be revealed as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and was going to win Mel war when revealed as Azor Ahai. 

There may be Pretenders but this, as you say, will not be resolved by personal appearances by "Gods"

Encouragingly, as I say, I think that this is confirmed by the Mummers' Farce. To the loudly expressed anguish of the faithful, it was indeed confirmed [claimed?] that R+L=J was true, but Jon never took the Iron Throne or turned into Azor Ahai. 

And that therefore  comes back to the OP of this thread. Where is Jon actually going ?

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'm very much in agreement with this and its a major reason why I'm very strongly against R+L=J

While I'm open these days to the possibility that Jon may indeed be the son of Rhaegar in a matter of simple family history, I remain opposed to the "high" notion back in the day that as a result Jon was going to be revealed as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and was going to win Mel war when revealed as Azor Ahai. 

There may be Pretenders but this, as you say, will not be resolved by personal appearances by "Gods"

Encouragingly, as I say, I think that this is confirmed by the Mummers' Farce. To the loudly expressed anguish of the faithful, it was indeed confirmed [claimed?] that R+L=J was true, but Jon never took the Iron Throne or turned into Azor Ahai. 

And that therefore  comes back to the OP of this thread. Where is Jon actually going ?

His name is Jon he might be gone ;)

I picked up from GRRMs blog that he is rewriting things.

Assuming Jon is killed at the end of ADwD, he will not be resurrected in time and get to Winterfell to take a role in the battle between Stannis and Ramsay.

Even if Ramsay were to defeat Stannis and Manderly, I don't see him surviving a winter in Winterfell to have a confrontation with Jon as in the tv series.

As this is the biggest impact Jon has on the tv series apart from killing Daenerys in the end, GRRM may have decided to keep him dead. Maybe also to make a point against the rumored SNOW spin-off?

fAegon might take over most of Jon's scenes with Daenerys anyway, they could kill each other and end House Targaryen in the books.

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Raising Jon as another Russian would, as discussed above, make a lot of sense, not least in providing the necessary balance between Ice and Fire which thus far is sadly lacking

Something else worth bearing in mind when drawing odious comparisons with the Mummers' Farce is the timescale. Assuming he sticks with the advertised schedule GRRM still has two bloated books to go before putting his feet up. Dead or alive that's a lot of time for Jon to get where he's going

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I’m probably reading too much into this, but in his “Winter Garden” SSM, does GRRM accidentally reveal that WOW will be his last book?

Quote

And the ending?   You will need to wait until I get there.   Some things will be the same.   A lot will not.

No doubt, once I am done, there will be huge debate about which version of the story is better.   Some people will like my book, others will prefer the television show.   And that’s fine, you pays your money and your makes your choice.   (I do fear that a certain proportion of fans are so angry about how long WINDS has taken me that they are prepared to hate the book, unread.   That saddens me, but there nothing I can do about it, but write the best book that I can, and hope that when it comes out most fans will read it with clean hands and an open mind).

He seems to be implying that once WOW is finished the story is finished and fans will start to debate whether his story or HBO’s story was better.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m probably reading too much into this, but in his “Winter Garden” SSM, does GRRM accidentally reveal that WOW will be his last book?

He seems to be implying that once WOW is finished the story is finished and fans will start to debate whether his story or HBO’s story was better.

As soon as we are presented two different endings I fail to understand how anyone could pick the HBO ending as the better one? 

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