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Heresy 242 Jon Stark


Black Crow

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On 7/18/2022 at 10:11 AM, Black Crow said:

Perhaps its more sinister. As soon as a potential Hero is identified, somebody out there performs the public service of knocking him [or her] off their perch before they can start waving the damn sword about

Yes, GRRM all but shouts it at us.


“prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.”

No wish fulfillment coming our way. Real politik in Westeros is brutal enough. I can’t imagine how the end of the remaining world order will be. A expect a glutton for tragedy, revenge and angst to be satiated by the end. 

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9 hours ago, Precioushobbits said:

No wish fulfillment coming our way. Real politik in Westeros is brutal enough. I can’t imagine how the end of the remaining world order will be. A expect a glutton for tragedy, revenge and angst to be satiated by the end. 

I think that goes without saying and whatever happens in the end will not be a Return of the King scenario 

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Moving slightly sideways, its worth considering that from the first page, this story has been told from multiple viewpoints, a big bang finale could be technically difficult

Unless we have a single hero winning a big battle.

Or, the Others win and Bran the tree tells it.

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14 hours ago, alienarea said:

Unless we have a single hero winning a big battle.

Or, the Others win and Bran the tree tells it.

Well the single hero, [whether its Jon Snow or anybody else] winning a big battle is going to be very difficult to end the multiple POVs unless everybody dies

Bran the Tree on the other hand is a possibility and would be fitting in that prologue aside he began the story - and yes the Others may well will, especially if led by Lord Snow :commie:

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8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well the single hero, [whether its Jon Snow or anybody else] winning a big battle is going to be very difficult to end the multiple POVs unless everybody dies

Bran the Tree on the other hand is a possibility and would be fitting in that prologue aside he began the story - and yes the Others may well will, especially if led by Lord Snow :commie:

I wonder about the "blue as the eyes of death" (quote?/paraphrased?) in Ned's fever dream about Lyanna for a while. Maybe it foreshadows a blue-eyed Jon reaching the crypts of Winterfell with the Army of the Dead? And maybe, because the bones remember, Lyanna's bones tell him what really happened?

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The blue eyes of death may very well be relevant here, but if so it may not be a matter of a blue-eyed Jon reaching the crypts with an army of dead. If Jon is indeed to return as one of the blue-eyed lot it may be precisely because its where the Starks come from and belonged - before the Nights King was betrayed by his brother.

Could be fun :commie:

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It’s a bit quiet at the moment, so I think I’ll expand on something I said a few posts back.
Midway through ADWD GRRM apparently killed off Jon Snow
Why ?
OK there are immediate motives in the story which explain why certain minor characters took it into their heads to stick knives in him, even Queen Cersei was keen on the idea. So textually we can explain why he ends up face down in the [winter] snow with puncture wounds in his back. 
But why did GRRM kill him ? Why did he, as the creator and only writer of this happy tale, feel that he needed to kill off a major character at this point – and remember the character is geographically isolated – and then turn around to hint that he may not be as dead as a Dodo ?
His death actually comes against the background of a major mystery and I suggest is part of the key to learning the truth behind that mystery. 
And the mystery? Who are the Others ? Supposedly they are the big bad and are on the point of sweeping south to kill all living things etc. They have been a looming threat since the very first page, but thus far all we’ve actually seen are the group of six [6] individuals who killed Ser Waymar Royce and one who was more or less accidentally pinked by Sam in the retreat from the Fist – and for all we know he may have been one of the first six. Apart from that we only have second and third hand stories and legends. So yes they exist and yes they are hostile, but otherwise we really know nothing.
Enter Jon
Stabbed multiple times, he falls and the last conscious thought recorded is a call to Ghost [his direwolf]. This is widely and pretty plausibly interpreted as his soul taking refuge in Ghost. But there’s a problem, a big problem. As is customary ADWD started off with a prologue relevant to something about to happen in the book. In this case it was the story of an unpleasant character called Varamyr, who told us about how warging works. He could switch bodies, but when his original body died his soul was first cut free and then drawn into his most powerful familiar. At first sight that seems straightforward. Jon dies, but his soul is cut free and ends up as a guest in Ghost. But what next? Varamyr is pretty clear that once the original body is dead the warg can neither return nor switch to another host. So Jon is stuck.
Or is he?
We’ve looked at the Others very carefully. GRRM has described them as 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” The description that they are “made of ice” is exactly how Stannis references them as “made of snow and ice” and the turning back to GRRM, he confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." So in short, the Others seen in the books supposedly ride the cold winds and then appear in human form but are made of snow and ice held together by magic.
Can Jon [being a Stark] therefore leave Ghost to ride the cold winds as Varamyr did, but then, unable to enter another living host, form himself a new body of snow and ice, thus confirming GRRM’s gnomic remark that he’s not dead [“the Others are not dead”] and so continuing as a major character and revealing the true nature of the Otherrs.  
 

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

His death actually comes against the background of a major mystery and I suggest is part of the key to learning the truth behind that mystery. 
And the mystery? Who are the Others ? Supposedly they are the big bad and are on the point of sweeping south to kill all living things etc. They have been a looming threat since the very first page, but thus far all we’ve actually seen are the group of six [6] individuals who killed Ser Waymar Royce and one who was more or less accidentally pinked by Sam in the retreat from the Fist – and for all we know he may have been one of the first six. Apart from that we only have second and third hand stories and legends. So yes they exist and yes they are hostile, but otherwise we really know nothing.

Agreed--this is one of the key, if not THE key, mysteries. (I think the source of the dragons and the Doom are key, too, but the North seems like the "magic" focus from the Game Prologue on).

That said--I'm not convinced Jon must become Other for us to understand the Others.

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Enter Jon
Stabbed multiple times, he falls and the last conscious thought recorded is a call to Ghost [his direwolf]. This is widely and pretty plausibly interpreted as his soul taking refuge in Ghost. But there’s a problem, a big problem. As is customary ADWD started off with a prologue relevant to something about to happen in the book. In this case it was the story of an unpleasant character called Varamyr, who told us about how warging works. He could switch bodies, but when his original body died his soul was first cut free and then drawn into his most powerful familiar. At first sight that seems straightforward. Jon dies, but his soul is cut free and ends up as a guest in Ghost. But what next? Varamyr is pretty clear that once the original body is dead the warg can neither return nor switch to another host. So Jon is stuck.
Or is he?

Stuck and not--yes. Like Coldhands. Coldhands seems to occupy the space between Other and human.

The Others, so very, very hostile to life. Who play with Waymar. Who enjoy killing him.

Vs. Jon--with his realization via Ghost that the Wildlings are all men, just like him. Because they all smell the same (that moment he has seeing/smelling/hearing them as Ghost does). And then Jon asserts that his Oath covers all men.

Then Coldhands: Othered but not cruel to humans. Still guarding the realms of men to protect Bran.

If Jon is to take a new form (very very likely)--my money's on Coldhands.

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We’ve looked at the Others very carefully. GRRM has described them as 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” The description that they are “made of ice” is exactly how Stannis references them as “made of snow and ice” and the turning back to GRRM, he confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." So in short, the Others seen in the books supposedly ride the cold winds and then appear in human form but are made of snow and ice held together by magic.
Can Jon [being a Stark] therefore leave Ghost to ride the cold winds as Varamyr did, but then, unable to enter another living host, form himself a new body of snow and ice, thus confirming GRRM’s gnomic remark that he’s not dead [“the Others are not dead”] and so continuing as a major character and revealing the true nature of the Otherrs.  

If humans cannot re-enter their dead/dying bodies ever ever ever--how account for Coldhands? ETA: "They killed him long ago." Leaf doesn't say "wounded." She says "killed." ETA: Even seems to imply that the Others killed Coldhands.

I'm thinking the difference might be that Oath. The "I am" section--becoming/transforming into weapons/qualities that guard men. By taking that oath, by understanding it better than the rest of the Watch does, Jon "transforms"--at least psychologically and morally.

Coldhands, unlike the Others, seems to maintain that Jon-like morality and focus. 

So--could that oath and morality be the difference here? That Oath that ties at Watchman to the world is a way that Varamyr was not?

Or--it could be Jon's Starkiness: they are the liminal ones. Grey. Twilight. Living in Winterfell, a realm of the living literally built on and protecting a realm of the dead. The dead kings who will come from their tombs when Jon goes down to them. ETA: The Starks seem to be made of different stuff. Maybe from lying with Others before, who knows? But they are different.

I think there's a really, really good chance that Jon's being a Stark may make a big difference in whether or not he becomes a Coldhands or an Other.

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53 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

If humans cannot re-enter their dead/dying bodies ever ever ever--how account for Coldhands? ETA: "They killed him long ago." Leaf doesn't say "wounded." She says "killed." ETA: Even seems to imply that the Others killed Coldhands.

We don't know if CH's ever left his body, nor do we know if CH was a warg or a skinchanger.  He is a mystery.

55 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

So--could that oath and morality be the difference here? That Oath that ties at Watchman to the world is a way that Varamyr was not?

Very good question, however, Othor and Jafer and others were sworn men of the NW and they came back as wights looking to kill their NW Brothers.

Haggon died when Varamyr pushed him out of One Eye.  "No second life for you, old man!"  If Jon left Ghost he may not be able to ride the winds or anything else as he has resisted warging and has not learned, like Varamyr how to use his warg powers.  If Jon did warg Ghost, a dangerous move, the endpoint does not seem to be becoming an Other.

 

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1 hour ago, LongRider said:

We don't know if CH's ever left his body, nor do we know if CH was a warg or a skinchanger.  He is a mystery.

Right--but if "they killed him"--doesn't that innately imply he left his body?

Beric and Stoneheart are "brought back" without warning, but are less. 

So--I guess it's fair to argue that maybe the soul sticks around in the body until it's "fully" dead. Or--we don't know for sure where souls go.

But we do know he was "dead." Like Cat. Like Beric. So--really seems like we are being shown that Jon can "come back" into his dead body somehow or other. Without becoming an Other--in body or in vicious spirit.

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Very good question, however, Othor and Jafer and others were sworn men of the NW and they came back as wights looking to kill their NW Brothers.

Right--but Jon seems to be the one who had the epiphany about the watch. Takes his brothers to task on who they are protecting. Seems like his take on the Oath is rather different.

That's what I'm wondering about that Oath--does understanding it "properly" make a difference?

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Haggon died when Varamyr pushed him out of One Eye.  "No second life for you, old man!"  If Jon left Ghost he may not be able to ride the winds or anything else as he has resisted warging and has not learned, like Varamyr how to use his warg powers.  If Jon did warg Ghost, a dangerous move, the endpoint does not seem to be becoming an Other.

Agreed. And, I'd reiterate: Jon is a Stark. They seem different when it comes to the dead. And not just because of that crypt (though I think that's a key part of it."

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Very tempting though it is to suggest a Coldhands outcome, I remain very conscious that Jon's apparent demise was preceded by the Varamyr prologue and that while Coldhands offers a solution I'm not convinced that outcome would be radical enough to justify killing Jon

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How do they seem different to you?  Ned and Robb both stayed dead.  Both were beheaded, although Robb’s happened after death.   Might put a damper on the coming back alive thing though. Cat was raised by Beric, and of course she is not related to Jon. 
What we have seen is Bran survive an injury that should have been fatal. He was brought back by the 3EC,  I don’t think Jon is dead and think he will survive his wounds. So if living, Jon could warg into Ghost, and possibly someone else would warg into Ghost..  
Who though? 

 

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1 hour ago, LongRider said:

How do they seem different to you?  Ned and Robb both stayed dead.  Both were beheaded, although Robb’s happened after death.   Might put a damper on the coming back alive thing though. Cat was raised by Beric, and of course she is not related to Jon. 
What we have seen is Bran survive an injury that should have been fatal. He was brought back by the 3EC,  I don’t think Jon is dead and think he will survive his wounds. So if living, Jon could warg into Ghost, and possibly someone else.  
Who though? 

 

Providing his real body is still alive, Ghost could indeed form a stepping stone to trying to take over some innocent third party, but the immediate problem there is that Jon, however powerful, is a newbie when it comes to skinchanging. Varamyr on the other hand was an experienced expert and the human Thistle managed to fight him off.

It also comes back to my earlier point, why kill Jon ? Simply re-enacting Varamyr's attempt to skinchange/warg Thistle hardly justifies the effort. Forming himself a new body of ice and snow, showing where the Others come from and revealing the Stark connection is MUCH more radical 

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13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Providing his real body is still alive, Ghost could indeed form a stepping stone to trying to take over some innocent third party,

My apologies, this is not what I meant.  I did edit the post but not soon enough.  :bang: However, your comment does open up some interesting possibilities.  The Others don't seem wargable to me, so don't see Jon going in that direction.

the edit:

2 hours ago, LongRider said:

So if living, Jon could warg into Ghost, and possibly someone else would warg into Ghost..  

What I meant was, Jon and another warg could be in Ghost.  That's what my awkward sentence meant.   :huh:

I base this possibility on the ravens warged by Bran already have a 2nd life in them.   Could Ghost already have a 2nd life warged into him?  I don't think Jon will become an Other, whether dead or alive.  

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6 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The Others don't seem wargable to me, so don't see Jon going in that direction.

They don't seem "wargable" to me either. My argument is that I think they ARE wargs who are capable of forming their own bodies from snow and ice rather than taking over someone else

Happy to discuss further, but right now I'm off to bed :cool4:

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Very tempting though it is to suggest a Coldhands outcome, I remain very conscious that Jon's apparent demise was preceded by the Varamyr prologue and that while Coldhands offers a solution I'm not convinced that outcome would be radical enough to justify killing Jon

I take your point--Varamyr is clearly significant. Shows a side of what Bran could have become. Could still become.

But really seems like Martin has been showing the various ways "second life" works for a while now: Others and Wights in Game. More Others and the Undying in Clash. Beric and Coldhands in Storm.

Then, in Dance, we get a whole bunch: Varamyr, Stoneheart, Coldhands again, and Bran: seeing souls in animals, climbing around in Hodor, seeing the Children "plugged in" to trees. Given that, seems like Varamyr's prologue could  be a warning for Bran.

Plus, there's Jon's long-recurring dream, which we hear about in Game: being called against his will into the crypt and seeing the Kings of Winter rise. Jon only sees this part of the dream AFTER they find Othor and Flowers. That seems like the dream is tied to the finding of the wights. An answer to the wights: raise the Starks, waiting in their completely unique crypt. And in that dream, Jon makes no mention of the old kings looking like ice-beasties. No matter how freaked out Jon is by the nightmare, really seems like he'd remember if the Kings looked like ice. If the people he's waking are Others.

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Providing his real body is still alive, Ghost could indeed form a stepping stone to trying to take over some innocent third party, but the immediate problem there is that Jon, however powerful, is a newbie when it comes to skinchanging. Varamyr on the other hand was an experienced expert and the human Thistle managed to fight him off.

Right--but this seems like it's tied to the lessons we are seeing Bran learn (or not learn) about second life, morality, etc. 

And, again: Varamyr is not a Stark. Not related to all those strangely crypted bodies in Winterfell. There is something unique about Stark dead. Varamyr cannot go back to his body. But we know both Beric and Stoneheart can--it is workable. So, what if that body is a Stark?

And, given your point about Jon's whopping inexperience compared to Varamyr, really think it's more likely Bran would make himself an ice body (or be tempted to). Bran, not Jon, has dreamed of being Symeon Star Eyes--likely an Other. Bran, not Jon, looks to use/create bodies that are not his own. Bran, not Jon, has practice.

If anyone's going to make an ice body in the series, showing us how to do it, my money would be on Bran--not newbie Jon. That would be just as radical--and make a lot more sense, given Bran's interest in Symeon and his talent/practice.

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It also comes back to my earlier point, why kill Jon ? Simply re-enacting Varamyr's attempt to skinchange/warg Thistle hardly justifies the effort. Forming himself a new body of ice and snow, showing where the Others come from and revealing the Stark connection is MUCH more radical 

Why kill Jon? To have him raise the dead of Winterfell. Like he's been dreaming of since Game. 

Bran's making an ice body would show us all the things you suggest. Be just as radical--and fit with his character and earlier ideas.

But Jon's dreams, when they come, what he sees and doesn't see (no Ice People in the crypts)--really, really seems like Jon is more likely to be a different kind of undead altogether. A unique one--like Coldhands. Not a wight. Not an Other (they aren't unique). Something much more rare. And very Stark.

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4 hours ago, LongRider said:

My apologies, this is not what I meant.  I did edit the post but not soon enough.  :bang: However, your comment does open up some interesting possibilities.  The Others don't seem wargable to me, so don't see Jon going in that direction.

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

They don't seem "wargable" to me either. My argument is that I think they ARE wargs who are capable of forming their own bodies from snow and ice rather than taking over someone else

I agree with you both--and all the more reason why Bran-the-seasoned-skinchanger (with access to info) is far more likely to attempt such a thing than Jon-the-newbie.

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36 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And, given your point about Jon's whopping inexperience compared to Varamyr, really think it's more likely Bran would make himself an ice body (or be tempted to). Bran, not Jon, has dreamed of being Symeon Star Eyes--likely an Other. Bran, not Jon, looks to use/create bodies that are not his own. Bran, not Jon, has practice.

5 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I agree with you both--and all the more reason why Bran-the-seasoned-skinchanger (with access to info) is far more likely to attempt such a thing than Jon-the-newbie.

Bran likes to push the envelope and not always pay attention to his teachers.

 

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII     "The wolf ate," Jojen said. "Not you. Take care, Bran. Remember who you are."

A Storm of Swords - Bran I   "Remember that, Bran. Remember yourself, or the wolf will consume you. When you join, it is not enough to run and hunt and howl in Summer's skin."

ADWD - Prologue 

 Haggon  "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again."

 "They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."   

Bran is a powerful warg, but not much experience and wags Hodor even though he knows it's wrong.  With the warnings to him to remember 'who you are' will he take that warning?  He might get so caught up in warging (O)ther bodies, he may forget who he is.   Would that be what BR wants though?

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4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Bran likes to push the envelope and not always pay attention to his teachers.

Bran is a powerful warg, but not much experience and wags Hodor even though he knows it's wrong.  With the warnings to him to remember 'who you are' will he take that warning?  He might get so caught up in warging (O)ther bodies, he may forget who he is.   Would that be what BR wants though?

Yup! The Varamyr prologue really does seem like it fits Bran well (in my not at all flawed opinion). Though Jon will push barriers, he then hems himself in with the words of his oath--comes back to the Wall instead of going to Robb. Refuses Stannis' offer for Winterfell. Jon sacrifices his desires to his idea of the rules. Varamyr and Bran . . . they aren't so scrupulous. 

As for what BR wants: I really vacillate on him. In the novellas, he's clearly the guy who's willing to do terrible things for the good of the realm. To basically sacrifice himself. But he and the Children seem really creepy--and remind me of the Undying.

Does BR want Bran to be like him? To sacrifice himself? If so, the Other body idea . . . not sure how that would help BR. 

But given the stories of Symeon Star Eyes and Bran's longstanding desire to be a knight: I could see Bran going rogue. To help defend his family (like he uses Summer to attack Jon's attackers). If Bran could be an Ice Knight (AKA Other)--yes. I could see him doing that whether BR liked it or not.

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