Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

This is an interesting take, especially since GRRM has given multiple interviews in which he cites the importance of Stoneheart--whatever her future role is, it seems certain to escalate beyond simply roving the Riverlands and hanging Freys,

Its' specifically mentioned by the Brotherhood, that her targets are the Freys and the Boltons:

Quote

"What does she want of me?"

"She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man.  "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding.  Freys and Boltons, aye.  We'll give her those, as many as she likes.  All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."

Presumably she'll start with the Freys since she's in the Riverlands.    But like you stated being a revenant, makes me think she won't leave the Boltons unresolved which should take her to Winterfell.  The fact that she still possesses Robb's crown also makes me think that her path will bring her back to Winterfell at some point.

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

and if Stoneheart is a revenant carrying out Catelyn's grudges, Jon does represent one potential point of conflict.

The fact that as late as ADWD Jon recalls how Cat told Robb that Jon could never inherit Winterfell, which then leads to Jon's berserker rage,  makes me think that their conflict is not resolved.  

[Black Crow]

Catelyn Stoneheart's interactions with the Freys and the Boltons will obviously raise the bodycount but won't really drive the story in strange and interesting directions, but a conflict with Jon could be pretty epic 

[alienarea]

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Catelyn Stoneheart's interactions with the Freys and the Boltons will obviously raise the bodycount but won't really drive the story in strange and interesting directions, but a conflict with Jon could be pretty epic 

I'm not clear about the timelines between AFfC and ADwD.

Roose and Ramsay are the only  Boltons that matter.

Lady Stoneheart as the Hooded Man dealing with Roose is something I would want to read.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I'm not clear about the timelines between AFfC and ADwD.

Roose and Ramsay are the only  Boltons that matter.

Lady Stoneheart as the Hooded Man dealing with Roose is something I would want to read.

I'm not convinced anent the timelines either, but the geography is interesting

When last seen Catelyn Stoneheart and the Freys are both in the Riverlands, which is straightforward

Reports of the fake Arya could draw her north into Bolton country as well as Roose himself, but even if it happens it will take time. The interesting thing then could be Jon. Whether dead or on or beyond the Wall, he's going to be out of the story for here - unless he himself returns to Winterfell 

[Black Crow]

Just now, Black Crow said:

I'm not convinced anent the timelines either, but the geography is interesting

When last seen Catelyn Stoneheart and the Freys are both in the Riverlands, which is straightforward

Reports of the fake Arya could draw her north into Bolton country as well as Roose himself, but even if it happens it will take time. The interesting thing then could be Jon. Whether dead or on or beyond the Wall, he's going to be out of the story for her - unless he himself returns to Winterfell 

 

[Nevets]

I do agree that GRRM regards Lady Stoneheart as having great importance; greater than simply killing off Freys and Lannisters.  Given GRRM's fascination with "conflicts of the human heart", I suspect she has a substantial influence on a major character.  Unfortunately for this discussion, I don't think it's Jon.  In fact, he isn't even on my list (Arya, Jaime, Sansa, Brienne).

Winterfell is a long trek from the Riverlands, and winter makes it even worse.  LSH is mostly surrounded by Riverlanders, and I doubt they have much interest in going all that way, especially as there are plenty of Freys and Lannisters to harass.  And it's winter.

Catelyn showed no interest in Jon when she was alive.  She didn't like him, but showed no hatred either.  At this point, I doubt she would care.  And Brienne knows Arya is fake, and others might.

My money is on Arya as the character she affects.  I can see her influencing Arya to jump off the vengeance train.  Or, gods forbid, to stay on it.  There's also the possibility that she might regard Jeyne Poole as an interloper who tried to steal the Stark birthright.  If Jeyne accompanies Arya (I think she will), this could cause trouble.

As for the Others, I think they are not quite alive, but a long way from dead.  My guess is that they feel threatened by humanity.  I'm guessing a negotiated settlement of some kind will end the conflict. Maybe cede them the area north of the Wall.  Benjen might have something to do with this.  He's doing something; I'm sure of that.

 

[LongRider]

16 hours ago, alienarea said:

Lady Stoneheart as the Hooded Man dealing with Roose is something I would want to read.

Lady Stoneheart as the Hooded Man would have ripped Theon's head right off.

[Brad Stark]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:11 PM, LongRider said:

We don't know if CH's ever left his body, nor do we know if CH was a warg or a skinchanger.  He is a mystery.

Very good question, however, Othor and Jafer and others were sworn men of the NW and they came back as wights looking to kill their NW Brothers.

Haggon died when Varamyr pushed him out of One Eye.  "No second life for you, old man!"  If Jon left Ghost he may not be able to ride the winds or anything else as he has resisted warging and has not learned, like Varamyr how to use his warg powers.  If Jon did warg Ghost, a dangerous move, the endpoint does not seem to be becoming an Other.

 

I was going to reply that we have no evidence CH was a warg, but we actually might.  We know Bran (and likely the other Starks) are powerful wargs, and we have some hints that the ability is passed along maternal lines.  So Cat, the mother of a few characters who are the only wargs, is also one of the few characters who returns from the dead.  We have no evidence Berric was a warg, but it isn't impossible.

I've speculated CH was a member of either House Stark or Targaryen, most likely Stark.  Why?  Because we have histories from GRRM.  CH being reveled as someone already in the story like Torrhen or Cregan makes a lot more sense than finding out he's a long dead King of Highgarden that we never heard of.  We have some evidence of Stark's leaving their graves and of them being Wargs.  The graves also have their likeness, giving CH a reason to hide his face from Bran.

The problem is CH doesn't seem to be able to pass the Wall, so he likely died North of it, ruling out any Stark unless we find out later they went North and never came back and got a statue anyway.  We do know  Brandon the Shipwright has a likeness, but not a body, in the Crypts.  So it isn't implausible another Stark is in the same situation, we just haven't been hit in the head with it.

We also have the simpler explanation -  CH has no backstory.  He's just a warrior who died North of the Wall, brought back by BR because he's useful, and hides his face and throat because large chunks of flesh where removed when he died.

[Brad Stark]

On 7/28/2022 at 2:45 PM, Black Crow said:

As I said [or tried to say] earlier, I think there may be a a significant and widespread but obscure misunderstanding regarding the Others, to wit an assumption that the Others are a hostile race and that lots of them are on the point of invading the south.

I'm suggesting that there are only a few of them and that they were once men

Jon, I'm suggesting has a part to play, but alongside other Starks, including Bran

 

Adding: in Tolkein terms, I'm suggesting the Others are not Orcs but Nazgul

Right now, I am playing with kittens.  And it strikes me just how kitten-like the Others in the prologue seem.  This is a new batch of Others, new to the world, and having a fun with their prey to learn how to fight.  These were not experienced Wargs or even grown men.  They could be entirely new creatures born as Others, or Craster's sons transformed before they grew up.

Someone posted a at the start of this on GRRM vs JRRT's religious view of the world, and I wrote that GRRM was an atheist so Westerous would essentially be written from an atheist view - no real gods, etc.  I am not so sure anymore this is the case.  GRRM has a lot in aSoIaF about spirits, and even what exactly makes up a human mind/body/spirit.  He isn't the sort of atheist who believes people are nothing more than a chemical reaction governed by the laws of physics.  This concept of the Others fits right along with this - the Others are humans without a body.  I suspect they can be killed, or at least die, as they haven't been seen in a long time and we no evidence the original Others are still around.

[Black Crow]

Just an idle thought. The Walkers [and Coldhands] can't pass the Wall, which seems straightforward enough.

Othor and Jafer couldn't pass the Wall of their own volition, but were carried to the other side - a fairly common trope in some ghost stories

If Walkers are wargs based in direwolves, perhaps the direwolves can carry them through the Wall

[alienarea]

19 hours ago, LongRider said:

Lady Stoneheart as the Hooded Man would have ripped Theon's head right off.

If she were to recognize him.

[alienarea]

8 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I was going to reply that we have no evidence CH was a warg, but we actually might.  We know Bran (and likely the other Starks) are powerful wargs, and we have some hints that the ability is passed along maternal lines.  So Cat, the mother of a few characters who are the only wargs, is also one of the few characters who returns from the dead.  We have no evidence Berric was a warg, but it isn't impossible.

I've speculated CH was a member of either House Stark or Targaryen, most likely Stark.  Why?  Because we have histories from GRRM.  CH being reveled as someone already in the story like Torrhen or Cregan makes a lot more sense than finding out he's a long dead King of Highgarden that we never heard of.  We have some evidence of Stark's leaving their graves and of them being Wargs.  The graves also have their likeness, giving CH a reason to hide his face from Bran.

The problem is CH doesn't seem to be able to pass the Wall, so he likely died North of it, ruling out any Stark unless we find out later they went North and never came back and got a statue anyway.  We do know  Brandon the Shipwright has a likeness, but not a body, in the Crypts.  So it isn't implausible another Stark is in the same situation, we just haven't been hit in the head with it.

We also have the simpler explanation -  CH has no backstory.  He's just a warrior who died North of the Wall, brought back by BR because he's useful, and hides his face and throat because large chunks of flesh where removed when he died.

Maybe Coldhands is the Night's King? He was killed long ago, maybe in Bran's vision. But because of the strange sorceries of his corpse queen he cannot stay dead?

That would explain why he hides his face. He knows Bran might see him in a vision.

I thought that the Night's King might have become the Black Gate, but that might be the Corpse Queen? Women giving birth are our gate into the world, so to speak.

[LongRider]

4 minutes ago, alienarea said:

If she were to recognize him.

The Hooded Man called him Theon Turncloak, so, he was recognized.  

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Right now, I am playing with kittens.  And it strikes me just how kitten-like the Others in the prologue seem.  This is a new batch of Others, new to the world, and having a fun with their prey to learn how to fight.  These were not experienced Wargs or even grown men.  They could be entirely new creatures born as Others, or Craster's sons transformed before they grew up.

Someone posted a at the start of this on GRRM vs JRRT's religious view of the world, and I wrote that GRRM was an atheist so Westerous would essentially be written from an atheist view - no real gods, etc.  I am not so sure anymore this is the case.  GRRM has a lot in aSoIaF about spirits, and even what exactly makes up a human mind/body/spirit.  He isn't the sort of atheist who believes people are nothing more than a chemical reaction governed by the laws of physics.  This concept of the Others fits right along with this - the Others are humans without a body.  I suspect they can be killed, or at least die, as they haven't been seen in a long time and we no evidence the original Others are still around.

 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just an idle thought. The Walkers [and Coldhands] can't pass the Wall, which seems straightforward enough.

Othor and Jafer couldn't pass the Wall of their own volition, but were carried to the other side - a fairly common trope in some ghost stories

If Walkers are wargs based in direwolves, perhaps the direwolves can carry them through the Wall

The white walkers in the prologue are the wargs that were split from Ghost, Greywind, Summer,  Shaggydog, Nymeria and Lady?

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

 

The white walkers in the prologue are the wargs that were split from Ghost, Greywind, Summer,  Shaggydog, Nymeria and Lady?

That was of course the implication. We have after all noted that the story opens with six Walkers and six direwolves

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That was of course the implication. We have after all noted that the story opens with six Walkers and six direwolves

I picked up on this early, but maybe it is a coincidence?  If there are only 6 walkers, that ruins the theory that Craster's sons have any importance, as he's had more than 6.  It doesn't rule out BR (or those working with him) sending the wolves, but makes it less likely.  If a was killed easily by Sam, the 5 left are an underwhelming threat.

I couldn't find the last Stark to have a wolf, but it seems much more recent than the last Other.  We are told that a Direwolf hasn't been South of the Wall in 200 years.  So it is unlikely a Stark had a wolf more recent than that, but also unlikely that direwolves were running around South of the wall long after the Stark's stopped getting them.  We also don't have a date on the Others, but it seems much further back.  No one doubts the direwolves exist, but many seem to question if Others ever did or it was just a story.  We also are told we haven't heard the 3 horn blasts in "hundreds and thousands of years" which isn't very specific, but seems a lot longer than 200.  If they are connected, why were the Starks getting wolves for hundreds of years after the last Other?

This brings us back to one of the first questions - how and why are the wolves there?  It isn't that after something happened, each Stark gets one when they are born or at a certain age - Robb, Jon and Rickon all got wolves at the same time.  And especially if you buy into J=R+L, why does Jon get a wolf while Ned does not?

Are the walkers on the side of the Starks?  Some ancient pact revived now that magic reawakened means each Stark gets both a walker and a wolf?  Or is it the other way, 6 walkers are back, so someone sent the walker's enemies a wolf for each to balance the fight?  

Could the number of walkers and wolves be connected, but the number of children unconnected?  6 walkers = 6 wolves, so Bran is the first choice, if being young matters along with his strength of ability.  Then 3 more for the younger kids, leaves 2 left.  Robb is too old (we do see some evidence they aren't as quick to pick up on warging as Bran and even Arya), but he gets 1 as there is no better choice.  Then Jon isn't a true Stark, is too old, but strong, so he gets one ahead of Ned.  Had there been 7 or 8 walkers, Ned would get a wolf or some distant Stark relative.  Had their only been 4 walkers, only the youngest kids would get them.

[alienarea]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That was of course the implication. We have after all noted that the story opens with six Walkers and six direwolves

 

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I picked up on this early, but maybe it is a coincidence?  If there are only 6 walkers, that ruins the theory that Craster's sons have any importance, as he's had more than 6.  It doesn't rule out BR (or those working with him) sending the wolves, but makes it less likely.  If a was killed easily by Sam, the 5 left are an underwhelming threat.

I couldn't find the last Stark to have a wolf, but it seems much more recent than the last Other.  We are told that a Direwolf hasn't been South of the Wall in 200 years.  So it is unlikely a Stark had a wolf more recent than that, but also unlikely that direwolves were running around South of the wall long after the Stark's stopped getting them.  We also don't have a date on the Others, but it seems much further back.  No one doubts the direwolves exist, but many seem to question if Others ever did or it was just a story.  We also are told we haven't heard the 3 horn blasts in "hundreds and thousands of years" which isn't very specific, but seems a lot longer than 200.  If they are connected, why were the Starks getting wolves for hundreds of years after the last Other?

This brings us back to one of the first questions - how and why are the wolves there?  It isn't that after something happened, each Stark gets one when they are born or at a certain age - Robb, Jon and Rickon all got wolves at the same time.  And especially if you buy into J=R+L, why does Jon get a wolf while Ned does not?

Are the walkers on the side of the Starks?  Some ancient pact revived now that magic reawakened means each Stark gets both a walker and a wolf?  Or is it the other way, 6 walkers are back, so someone sent the walker's enemies a wolf for each to balance the fight?  

Could the number of walkers and wolves be connected, but the number of children unconnected?  6 walkers = 6 wolves, so Bran is the first choice, if being young matters along with his strength of ability.  Then 3 more for the younger kids, leaves 2 left.  Robb is too old (we do see some evidence they aren't as quick to pick up on warging as Bran and even Arya), but he gets 1 as there is no better choice.  Then Jon isn't a true Stark, is too old, but strong, so he gets one ahead of Ned.  Had there been 7 or 8 walkers, Ned would get a wolf or some distant Stark relative.  Had their only been 4 walkers, only the youngest kids would get them.

And Coldhands is the warg Stark freed from Mother Direwolf?

[LynnS]

On 7/31/2022 at 11:32 AM, Black Crow said:

Just an idle thought. The Walkers [and Coldhands] can't pass the Wall, which seems straightforward enough.

Othor and Jafer couldn't pass the Wall of their own volition, but were carried to the other side - a fairly common trope in some ghost stories

If Walkers are wargs based in direwolves, perhaps the direwolves can carry them through the Wall

This is an interesting possibility. I recall the small, but significant plot point, that Jon can't sense Ghost, when separated by the Wall.  However, that may not an impediment for the direwolves or Ghost in particular..

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Jon pissed in darkness, filling his chamber pot as the Old Bear's raven muttered complaints. The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father's ward … but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves had escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon's life. Summer, it had to be. His fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves.

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too.

A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

"Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

 

Direwolves and wargs have some supernatural capabilities that we don't see in skinchanger bonded animals.  So perhaps they can act as couriers through the wards.   So potentially, Jon could end up North of the Wall.  

[LynnS]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:24 PM, Nevets said:

If Jeyne accompanies Arya (I think she will), this could cause trouble.

It will be interesting to see what transpires in the next Prologue, which is supposed to feature Jeyne Westerling.  That should tell us more about plot developments with Lady SH.

[LynnS]

Another distinction between the direwolves are the descriptions of their eyes.

Arya sees Nymeria as having eyes like gold coins.  This seems a bit of foreshadowing of Arya's future as a Faceless Man.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Arya I

Nymeria nipped eagerly at her hand as Arya untied her. She had yellow eyes. When they caught the sunlight, they gleamed like two golden coins. Arya had named her after the warrior queen of the Rhoyne, who had led her people across the narrow sea. That had been a great scandal too. Sansa, of course, had named her pup "Lady." Arya made a face and hugged the wolfling tight. Nymeria licked her ear, and she giggled.

 

Summer's eye are gold like the sun and slitted like a cat's eye.  That evokes the eyes of the Children of the Forest with golden cat-like eyes - where Bran is destined to end up.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran II

Bran looked back down. His wolf fell silent, staring up at him through slitted yellow eyes. A strange chill went through him. He began to climb again. Once more the wolf howled. "Quiet," he yelled. "Sit down. Stay. You're worse than Mother." The howling chased him all the way up the tree, until finally he jumped off onto the armory roof and out of sight.

 

Eyes that see all there is to see, like the Greenseer he will become.:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In the yard below, Rickon ran with the wolves.

Bran watched from his window seat. Wherever the boy went, Grey Wind was there first, loping ahead to cut him off, until Rickon saw him, screamed in delight, and went pelting off in another direction. Shaggydog ran at his heels, spinning and snapping if the other wolves came too close. His fur had darkened until he was all black, and his eyes were green fire. Bran's Summer came last. He was silver and smoke, with eyes of yellow gold that saw all there was to see. Smaller than Grey Wind, and more wary. Bran thought he was the smartest of the litter. He could hear his brother's breathless laughter as Rickon dashed across the hard-packed earth on little baby legs.

 

Rickon and Shaggy Dog are something of a mystery; black as a storm cloud, with green fire for eyes.  Tempestuous in temperment.  What could this mean for the path that Rickon is on?  He runs with the wolves.  I wonder if he will run with Nymeria's Superpack.

There doesn't seem to be anything that stands out about Lady or Greywind in description.  Their eyes are yellow and they have both been written out.