Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[LynnS]

 

Or has Robb Stark been written out?

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A Clash of Kings - Theon V

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

 

If the souls of wargs are different from skinchangers; has Robb's soul been carried back to Winterfell, out of the night, on a cold wind.  Eyes burning? With blue fire?  Walking out of the night is certainly evocative.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is an interesting possibility. I recall the small, but significant plot point, that Jon can't sense Ghost, when separated by the Wall.  However, that may not an impediment for the direwolves or Ghost in particular..

Direwolves and wargs have some supernatural capabilities that we don't see in skinchanger bonded animals.  So perhaps they can act as couriers through the wards.   So potentially, Jon could end up North of the Wall.  

Another odd thing to bear in mind here of course is the [dead] Othor didn't really behave like a normal wight. - instead he rather behaved as if he was being skinchanged

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

It will be interesting to see what transpires in the next Prologue, which is supposed to feature Jeyne Westerling.  That should tell us more about plot developments with Lady SH.

I was referring to the other Jeyne (Jeyne Poole), but Jeyne Westerling could make things interesting in the Riverlands, especially if she starts waving her husband's bloody shirt, so to say.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Another odd thing to bear in mind here of course is the [dead] Othor didn't really behave like a normal wight. - instead he rather behaved as if he was being skinchanged

Definately.  Mormont was a deliberate target.  That's not the sort of thing I'm expecting from a zombie.  I think it's possible that the Others can skinchange a body that they have raised with  ice magic.  Sam tells Jon that the Others either come with the cold or they generate the cold.  I think it's both.

When Ghost wakes Jon after Othor passes them; Jon notes how cold it in his room.  That drop in temperature comes with Othor but that isn't something they noticed when they found Othor and Jafr.   So that could indicate that Othor is hosting an Other rather than operating under his own devices.

Varamyr as well, senses that Thistle sees him.  The Others take your eyes in the common epithet.  I don't think Small Paul came across Sam and Gilly in some random fashion.  Gilly thinks he's come for her baby and makes no distinction between wights and White Walkers.  I think Small Paul came for Sam because of the Horn of Winter and dragonglass he carries.

Patchface also talks about the crows being white as snow.  Is he talking about wight Walkers or wights?  We know from Bloodraven that all the crows have been ridden when Bran mentions sensing another presence in one.  So perhaps Patchface is comparing wights to crows.

Moqorro tells Victarion that the drowned god is a thrall to the Other.  The Damphair says the Sky God is their enemy and crows are their servants.  The whole ethos of the drowned god, of dying and rising again crosses over to the Others and the raising of wights.  To the extent that the Ironborn have some cultural memory of the Others and tempt to protect themselves through religious/superstitious ritual.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Nevets said:

I was referring to the other Jeyne (Jeyne Poole), but Jeyne Westerling could make things interesting in the Riverlands, especially if she starts waving her husband's bloody shirt, so to say.

Oh! LOL.  Well if she's preggers that would influence any decisions LSH might make.

[LynnS]

Yikes!  Video blog with George R.R. Martin at the end.

 

[Precioushobbits]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh! LOL.  Well if she's preggers that would influence any decisions LSH might make.

If she is preggers and Rob named Jon his heir it will be interesting.  That would be additional ammo for the Stoneheart to go after Jon, not that she needs one.
 

I think some might miss the fact that Catelyn the wife and mother with agency is gone and only the revenant remains. I don’t expect LSH to have any ethical boundaries or conscious remaining in her quest for revenge. Just like a Beric - I hazard the last emotion/passion the human had before rising as a fire wight will consume them - in purpose, thought and physical agency. True zealots of a cause. Fire picks them for their passion. 

[LongRider]

Jon didn't kill any of her children so why go after him?   And if he is a reanimated revenant, what would be the point?

[Nevets]

Any speculation about Jon and Lady Stoneheart is pointless.  Jon is unlikely to get past Winterfell any time soon, and I don't see LSH going north, especially in winter.  Plus, both characters seem intent on ignoring each other.

I also doubt Jeyne Westerling is pregnant.  By this point, she would be obviously showing, and she isn't.  I don't believe the girl Jaime met is an imposter; too many people would know what she looks like.

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Precioushobbits said:

I think some might miss the fact that Catelyn the wife and mother with agency is gone and only the revenant remains.

Yes.  So why was GRRM making a comparison between Beric, LSH and what happens with Jon.  We are meant to learn something but Im not sure what.  I'm not sure that Jon will be raised by fire.

So far we know what it looks like to be raised by fire and ice.  Coldhands, Robert Strong and Patchface are the anomalies.

Patchface says "Under the sea, the crows are white as snow."  We know from Stannis and Mel that White Walkers are made of snow and ice and cold.  So Patchface is referring to White Walkers as crows made of snow.  They are also referred toas white shadows by Tormund, when the shadows come on the cold wind but don't have a solid form.

And why does Patchface refer to Jon as THE crow?

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

 

This is the first time Jon comes in contact with Patchface and he is announced and exclaimed by Patchface as THE crow.  He follows that with a description of the White Walkers and connects Jon to them.

So the possibility exists that Jon will return as a revenant of the icy kind.

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

Any speculation about Jon and Lady Stoneheart is pointless.  Jon is unlikely to get past Winterfell any time soon, and I don't see LSH going north, especially in winter.  Plus, both characters seem intent on ignoring each other.

I also doubt Jeyne Westerling is pregnant.  By this point, she would be obviously showing, and she isn't.  I don't believe the girl Jaime met is an imposter; too many people would know what she looks like.

Yes, I don't know how this will turn out.  That's what GRRM does.  He brings the story to a point where it can shoot off in all kinds of directions and readers do their own bit of gardening.  That's the fun of it; we're dealing with the possibilities. So let's hear them.  

I'm curious about what will happen with Brienne and Jaimie at this point.  I don't think their hunt for Sansa and Arya is over and I wonder how LSH will be affected if Sansa or Rickon should show up.  It's seems likely that she will cross paths with Theon at some point.  That could be explosive.  She doesn't exactly listen to reason.  

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, LongRider said:

Jon didn't kill any of her children so why go after him?   And if he is a reanimated revenant, what would be the point?

Frey Family Reunion advanced the idea the Jon is broken sword now with body and soul separated.  His body is a sword without a hilt to paraphrase Val or the Horned Lord describing sorcery.  We know that bodies of the dead can be raised.  So then are they dead or undead?  If Jon's body is wightified, while the autonomous part of his soul resides in the hilt of the sword (Ghost); can the sword be put back together? 

If the lesson about Othor is that wights can be warged/skinchanged; can Jon reclaim his own body?

This is the small but significant detail left out of Varamyr's Prologue.  He never says whether his own body rises up with blue eyes.

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Frey Family Reunion advanced the idea the Jon is broken sword now with body and soul separated.  His body is a sword without a hilt to paraphrase Val or the Horned Lord describing sorcery.  We know that bodies of the dead can be raised.  So then are they dead or undead?  If Jon's body is wightified, while the autonomous part of his soul resides in the hilt of the sword (Ghost); can the sword be put back together? 

If the lesson about Othor is that wights can be warged/skinchanged; can Jon reclaim his own body?

This is the small but significant detail left out of Varamyr's Prologue.  He never says whether his own body rises up with blue eyes.

What if Jon Snow-Wight gets warged by Bran?

I have some storytelling issues with Bran and Jon for a long time, i.e. if Bran becomes the 3EC, wouldn't Ghost (of the old gods) have been the more fitting direwolf for him?

Or, should Jon have been the one to become crippled and merge with the trees?
 

Is this maybe the solution to the conflict, Bran doing Jon things by warging?

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, alienarea said:

What if Jon Snow-Wight gets warged by Bran?

I have some storytelling issues with Bran and Jon for a long time, i.e. if Bran becomes the 3EC, wouldn't Ghost (of the old gods) have been the more fitting direwolf for him?

Or, should Jon have been the one to become crippled and merge with the trees?
 

Is this maybe the solution to the conflict, Bran doing Jon things by warging?

Sure, anything is possible,  I suppose.  I'm not very clear on the story-telling issues.  We've had Tree-Bran contacting Ghost-Jon and activating Jon's eyes. In a sense, Jon also belongs to the old gods.  So I'm expecting more of that kind of thing.  Potentially, Jon, Arya and Rickon could act as Bran's instruments.  I don't think we can write Jon out at this point.

 

[EggBlue]

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

I have some storytelling issues with Bran and Jon for a long time, i.e. if Bran becomes the 3EC, wouldn't Ghost (of the old gods) have been the more fitting direwolf for him?

I currently think we ought to count Bran as part of the Old Gods and Ghost is an indication that Bran will need Jon with something .

it's telling that Jon , who is not exactly a godly man , thinks of Winterfell's Heart Tree and his recurring new dreams to turn down Stannis's offer, which would have taken him away from the Wall (and whatever Bran needs him there for ) . 

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You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

he also sees Ghost(who is basically Jon's own ghost in...personality, I guess) as belonging to Old Gods (aka,Bran) when he's got doubts about his decision in the next chapter where he is elected as Lord Commander .

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Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.

 

[Black Crow]

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.

 

Rather says it all anent where Jon's destined to go

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.

 

Rather says it all anent where Jon's destined to go

And that is one of my storytelling issues. Why I am still against R+L=J.

If Jon is destined for the old gods and or white walkers, he cannot be half-Targaryen (or he may not rise as ice but as a squid, due to being half-fire).

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

And that is one of my storytelling issues. Why I am still against R+L=J.

If Jon is destined for the old gods and or white walkers, he cannot be half-Targaryen (or he may not rise as ice but as a squid, due to being half-fire).

that's one of my issues too .  yet, if RLJ theory is actually true, Jon won't be the first half Targ bastard who fully belongs to the old Gods, as if Targ blood is not so magical and not on the other side of Ice-Fire spectrum as it can get!

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

And that is one of my storytelling issues. Why I am still against R+L=J.

If Jon is destined for the old gods and or white walkers, he cannot be half-Targaryen (or he may not rise as ice but as a squid, due to being half-fire).

Oh that storytelling problem.  LOL Yes, what would be the point of RLJ then?  Or maybe RLJ is true, but our assumptions about it are wrong.  Does GRRM work in straight lines?  RLJ to PWIP to AAR to the Iron Throne?  That's a lot of heroic stuff to pile onto one character.  Maybe we're jumping the shark on that one.  Maybe a fire and ice bloodline is more magical and malleable than we think.  Bloodraven is a good example.

[Black Crow]

The "point" of R+L=J of course is that its a diversion/distraction obscuring Jon's real destiny north of the Wall