Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The "point" of R+L=J of course is that its a diversion/distraction obscuring Jon's real destiny north of the Wall 

Yes, sure. And GRRM is subverting tropes.

If Targaryens are fire made flesh, he cannot rise as ice because half of him burns.

The bottom line is: GRRM started with a classical fantasy tale, subverting any trope he came across. Which ended him in a dead end he cannot get out of since eleven years.

Some of the "classic fantasy tropes" that need to be met, in my opinion, in no particular order:

- Jamie pushes Bran from the tower, so Bran needs to push down Jamie somewhere

- Jamie sat on the iron throne after murdering Aerys, so he needs to sit on the iron throne at the end of his redemption arc. Those two points are hard to align.

- Ramsay flayed Theon, but apparently Theon has enough fingers left to shoot an arrow. Ramsay needs to die by a gray goose arrow from Theon.

- Anguy is introduced as a master archer. He needs to kill a dragon.

- Littlefinger murders Lisa Arryn to protect Sansa. Sansa needs to murder Littlefinger to protect Sweet Robin.

- an Antagonist needs to be introduced early on, and it needs to be someone we won't suspect. Bran.

- that, in connection with the first two points would make Jaime an unknown hero with a bad rep.

- kinslayers need to die. Exit Tyrion. Exit Stannis.

- TWoW should open with the wall collapsing. Because the Nightwatch murdered their Lord Commander, i.e. isn't true anymore

- ...

 

[EggBlue]

13 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Yes, sure. And GRRM is subverting tropes.

If Targaryens are fire made flesh, he cannot rise as ice because half of him burns.

*melts. if fire made flesh rises as ice , the Icy Zombie melts down

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

*melts. if fire made flesh rises as ice , the Icy Zombie melts down

Except in this case, Jon is ice cold, just like Bael the Bard's son

[alienarea]

17 hours ago, EggBlue said:

*melts. if fire made flesh rises as ice , the Icy Zombie melts down

Or becomes a squid :P

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Or becomes a squid

One of the reasons why I don't think he's coming back in an icy fabrication is that he'd be too easy to dispatch with obsidian.  What is he comes back as an anomaly, another one of a kind.  Raised by ice with a body that can't be dispatched with obsidian or a blade?  One that is impervious to normal fire like a White Walker?  Coldhands with ice eyes, or Beric but indestructable by normal means?  The soul of ice and heart of winter.  It's the heart and soul that must be cleansed or converted.  That might be the last fire that Dany must light (for love).

Here is her soul cleansed and converted by spiritual fire:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

This is so close to what happens to Ser Puddles.  This is the only way to free a soul from it's icy chains.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice

"R'hllor," Ser Godry sang, "we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants. Hear their pain, and grant strength to our swords that we might shed the blood of your enemies. Accept this sacrifice, and show us the way to Winterfell, that we might vanquish the unbelievers."

 

"What is dead can never die."  What if Jon can raise the dead?  What if he starts out as a combo wight and white walker with all their strengths and none of their vulnerabilities? What if he starts out as the soul of ice and ends up the soul of fire - the man limned in flame? Does that subvert enough tropes?  

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

One of the reasons why I don't think he's coming back in an icy fabrication is that he'd be too easy to dispatch with obsidian.  What is he comes back as an anomaly, another one of a kind.  Raised by ice with a body that can't be dispatched with obsidian or a blade?  One that is impervious to normal fire like a White Walker?  Coldhands with ice eyes, or Beric but indestructable by normal means?  The soul of ice and heart of winter.  It's the heart and soul that must be cleansed or converted.  That might be the last fire that Dany must light (for love).

Here is her soul cleansed and converted by spiritual fire:

This is so close to what happens to Ser Puddles.  This is the only way to free a soul from it's icy chains.

"What is dead can never die."  What if Jon can raise the dead?  What if he starts out as a combo wight and white walker with all their strengths and none of their vulnerabilities? What if he starts out as the soul of ice and ends up the soul of fire - the man limned in flame? Does that subvert enough tropes?  

Reports anent Winds of Winter are pretty blank as to Jon. This suggests to me that he either won't appear, or if he does its going to be pretty late on - after being assassinated only halfway through ADwD.

This suggests to me that when he does come back [and I'm confident he will] there will be a significant change and one that will enlighten us to the true place of the Starks and Winterfell, and no I don't see any anomalies either, or any reason or mechanism for anomalies. Jon will be King of Winter.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is so close to what happens to Ser Puddles.  This is the only way to free a soul from it's icy chains.

That's a good observation.  My personal thought on Ser Puddles is that the ice form that was destroyed by Sam was only a temporary vessel anyway for whatever provided the consciousness of the ice golem.

The fact that they appear out of nowhere (or thin air) is perhaps a clue that their ice forms are only temporary.  

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Reports anent Winds of Winter are pretty blank as to Jon. This suggests to me that he either won't appear, or if he does its going to be pretty late on - after being assassinated only halfway through ADwD.

This suggests to me that when he does come back [and I'm confident he will] there will be a significant change and one that will enlighten us to the true place of the Starks and Winterfell, and no I don't see any anomalies either, or any reason or mechanism for anomalies. Jon will be King of Winter.

Sure.  I'm just riffing off the possibility that WWs/Wargs can skinchange wights as suggested by Othor.  Jon taking back his own wighted body wouldn't necessarily disqualify him as the King of Winter but rather qualify him for the job.  As for releasing the souls of the Kings of Winter from their crypts (raising the dead); that would also be in Jon's bailiwick.  I can imagine them coming back with icy bodies made of cold and snow.

It could be that we don't get to Jon until later in Winds but I'm sure we'll get a few crumbs. 

[alienarea]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

  I can imagine them coming back with icy bodies made of cold and snow.

Maybe they are the snow storm originating from Winterfell? @redriver 

And that storm reached the wall when Jon got assassinated? Is this the cold he feels.

 

[Nevets]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Reports anent Winds of Winter are pretty blank as to Jon. This suggests to me that he either won't appear, or if he does its going to be pretty late on - after being assassinated only halfway through ADwD.

This suggests to me that when he does come back [and I'm confident he will] there will be a significant change and one that will enlighten us to the true place of the Starks and Winterfell, and no I don't see any anomalies either, or any reason or mechanism for anomalies. Jon will be King of Winter.

Jon was stabbed at the very end of ADWD, not the middle.  And the reason we have heard nothing about Jon in the next book is because any report would be extremely spoilery.  Most likely he is either still alive, or will be brought back fairly quickly.  Either option has potential consequences associated with it.  

Characters such as Sam, Jaime, and Brienne also have blank futures for the same reason.  Too spoilery.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe they are the snow storm originating from Winterfell? @redriver 

And that storm reached the wall when Jon got assassinated? Is this the cold he feels.

 

Interesting!  Do the souls of the Kings of Winter generate the cold like White Walkers?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Jon was stabbed at the very end of ADWD, not the middle.  And the reason we have heard nothing about Jon in the next book is because any report would be extremely spoilery.  Most likely he is either still alive, or will be brought back fairly quickly.  Either option has potential consequences associated with it.  

Characters such as Sam, Jaime, and Brienne also have blank futures for the same reason.  Too spoilery.

Yup, way too spoilery.  Jon could be saved if someone can get to him fast enough.  Although it does seem his carotid artery was cut.

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe they are the snow storm originating from Winterfell? @redriver 

And that storm reached the wall when Jon got assassinated? Is this the cold he feels.

 

When Jon was stabbed, the wind was blowing from the South and had piled up against the Wall.  Earlier in the day, Jon noted the snow piling against the Wall has the cells dug out and living prisoners moved.  Later, Horse and Rory left the Shieldhall with Jon, and began to run behind him when he ran towards Wun Wun.  When describing Wun Wun and Ser Patrek, it's noted            

Quote

The knight's cloak flapped in the cold air.       ADWD, Jon XII

So, it's snowing and cold when Jon falls.  Why did he not feel the fourth knife?  Perhaps Rory or Horse stopped the assailant from stabbing Jon.

[Brad Stark]

On 8/4/2022 at 11:05 AM, LynnS said:

Oh that storytelling problem.  LOL Yes, what would be the point of RLJ then?  Or maybe RLJ is true, but our assumptions about it are wrong.  Does GRRM work in straight lines?  RLJ to PWIP to AAR to the Iron Throne?  That's a lot of heroic stuff to pile onto one character.  Maybe we're jumping the shark on that one.  Maybe a fire and ice bloodline is more magical and malleable than we think.  Bloodraven is a good example.

RLJ is part of the story about how Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, the Prince who was Promised, and the only one who can save the world, along with every other cliché fantasy hero trope.  

Jon could make a miraculous recovery (or resurrection) and come back unchanged, like a certain TV show, and fulfill this cliché role in the most boring way possible without any twists.  Or GRRM could write an interesting story by completing turning the cliché on its head.  There are two ways to do that, either by making the hero become the villain (also somewhat overused, but not so much in modern works) or leaving him outright dead and watching everyone else run around like ants vs a magnifying glass.

[Black Crow]

Exactly so, which is why I argue that the cliche fantasy tropes are being overturned and that whatever form Jon's eventual reappearance will take, it will centre around the Musgrave Ritual that is Winterfell and the Stark family

[LongRider]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly so, which is why I argue that the cliche fantasy tropes are being overturned and that whatever form Jon's eventual reappearance will take, it will centre around the Musgrave Ritual that is Winterfell and the Stark family

I had a thought along this line after reading your post.  One of the draws at WF for readers is the Crypts, which Bran firmly declared them as a "Stark place."  Who besides the Starks know how to go down there?  There is Theon, which may lead to Ramsey and Roose Bolton knowing.  The two Frey kids, Lady Barbrey Dustin, Osha, and Meera and Jojen Reed.  Any others?  With so many folks knowing where in WF they are and how to access them, will Jon or any other Stark find them disturbed if they ever get back to WF, and what that might mean?

edt: Mance is hot to find the crypts as well.

In the Musgrave Ritual the wrong person deciphered the riddle and died.  What would happen should the wrong person deciphered the mystery of the crypts?

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

I had a thought along this line after reading your post.  One of the draws at WF for readers is the Crypts, which Bran firmly declared them as a "Stark place."  Who besides the Starks know how to go down there?  There is Theon, which may lead to Ramsey and Roose Bolton knowing.  The two Frey kids, Lady Barbrey Dustin, Osha, and Meera and Jojen Reed.  Any others?  With so many folks knowing where in WF they are and how to access them, will Jon or any other Stark find them disturbed if they ever get back to WF, and what that might mean?

edt: Mance is hot to find the crypts as well.

In the Musgrave Ritual the wrong person deciphered the riddle and died.  What would happen should the wrong person deciphered the mystery of the crypts?

I think that's a good point which will be developed as the story goes on, although the list of active players may turn out to be shorter.

Mance [or whoever he might really be] is an obvious player. Lady Barbrey I'm not sure about insofar as her interest may be too obvious, ie; while the interest is there, the motives may be obscure, but then there is Roose Bolton... what did he discover in that book which he promptly burned? We don't, obviously, know, but its hard to avoid the suspicion it was something to do with Winterfell.

[LongRider]

34 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that's a good point which will be developed as the story goes on, although the list of active players may turn out to be shorter.

Another good point, easy to hide in crowd, no?

[LynnS]

On 8/5/2022 at 12:52 PM, Frey family reunion said:

That's a good observation.  My personal thought on Ser Puddles is that the ice form that was destroyed by Sam was only a temporary vessel anyway for whatever provided the consciousness of the ice golem.

The fact that they appear out of nowhere (or thin air) is perhaps a clue that their ice forms are only temporary.  

I still like your broken sword analogy.  That's a good one.  A temporary form has a certain logic to it.  I'm very suspicious og Sentinel Trees and Soldier Pines.  I don't think weirwoods are the only trees with eyes.  IIRC, Ser Puddles appears from out behind a pine tree after it unloads a pile of snow.

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

There are two ways to do that, either by making the hero become the villain (also somewhat overused, but not so much in modern works) or leaving him outright dead and watching everyone else run around like ants vs a magnifying glass.

LOL!.  I did not see that coming.

I can imagine a lot of things about where characters are heading, but I don't know what's going to happen.  I'll be happy to be surprised.  The only thing I'm betting on are House Dayne words:  "Let the Wicked Tremble."  Because that would be awesome.

I do want to know the details of RLJ; the kit and kaboodle; the whole nine yards.  If the only thing Jon discovers about his parentage is who his mother is;  I don't care what kind of melt-down he has - it will be a groaner.

I am interested to see how George will revisit his old friends:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Or not." Jojen's face was dappled with green shadows. "Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure."

"No," said Bran. "I haven't. And if I have it doesn't matter. Sometimes Old Nan would tell the same story she'd told before, but we never minded, if it was a good story. Old stories are like old friends, she used to say. You have to visit them from time to time."

 

The Night King of course, the Thing That Comes in the Night and other character favourites - Ser Galladon of Morne, The Perfect Knight..  I think many of them will have an analogue in the present timeline.