Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[LynnS]

On 8/28/2022 at 1:36 PM, Black Crow said:

Lord Eddard didn't receive any lost knowledge from Lyanna. I think that he knew it already. 

I mean to say that he may have learned something from her about Targ prophecy.  Certainly his "old dream" of a blood red sky and a storm of petals is on point for the Asshai prophecy, in a green dream sort of way.  Why does Ned feel guilt about not keeping his promises?  If his promise to her was only about keeping Jon safe and raising him as his own "blood"; he certainly did that. Then why does he think he broke his promises?  

I would also question Ned's memory:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

Ned seems to have his own memory blocks.

Of course he knows Old Nan's stories but how much credibility does he give them.  Who had chain of custody of the Stark Musgrave ritual?  Rickard and Brandon were killed, Ned was fostered out.  Benjen and Lyanna?

I still think Rhaegar's solo trips to Summerhall were to meet up with the Ghost of High Heart and exchange songs (Jenny's Song) for dreams.  This may be why Rhaegar looked twice at Lyanna.  Lyanna was another maid who was fond of ... (blue roses) flowers, to quote Ned.  It seems more likely to me that the sad song he sang at the Harrenhall Tourney was Jenny, with flowers in her hair.  I don't think the Song of Ice and Fire is a song per se.  At least, not one that has been put to music unless it's a collection of songs.

What does the song of fire sound like or a singing dragon for that matter?  Well, I was pleasantly surprised that dragons were given an expanded vocabulary in Ep. 2.0.  Trilling and chirping as opposed to just growling and roaring.  Whale song comes to mind.  

 

 

 

[LynnS]

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

She's given tons of titles in the House of the Undying, but there is one that keeps repeating.  Mother of Dragons.  And remember where Quaithe wants her to go, Asshai.  Asshai where there are thousands of unhatched dragon eggs.

Absolutely.  The Mother of Dragons.  Does Quaithe really want her to go to Asshai?  How do you figure?

[Precioushobbits]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I mean to say that he may have learned something from her about Targ prophecy.  Certainly his "old dream" of a blood red sky and a storm of petals is on point for the Asshai prophecy, in a green dream sort of way.  Why does Ned feel guilt about not keeping his promises?  If his promise to her was only about keeping Jon safe and raising him as his own "blood"; he certainly did that. Then why does he think he broke his promises?  

I would also question Ned's memory:

Ned seems to have his own memory blocks.

Of course he knows Old Nan's stories but how much credibility does he give them.

I suspect that Ned’s subconscious skirts around the promise he made, because his ”see with your eyes” instinct to take his sister at face value puts him squarely at odds with his code and tolerable variances in his working reality. He desires to explain her plea within a framework he can accept. While this memory is willfully neglected, I believe his fever dream skates along the crux of the matter demonstrating its importance and the lack of a resolution his subconscious accepts. 

I think he found his fierce, passionate, and chivalric sister in a state of mind so foreign to her nature that he attributed her fervent last request to her frail condition. I think it was easier to do that then to open the dark tomb of family lore and consider it with a fresh perspective that could ironically require an even more stark acceptance that there are no good choices. Only pragmatic compromises with one’s ethics that will allow the pack to survive. 

I think Lyanna was privy to some prophesy or knowledge that had recently “snapped shut on her prick” and she was now horribly aware of her error. I think Jon is the culmination of a  breeding program geared to move the chains in the next round of conflict between hive-minded entities (gods) whose desires and purpose will continue to hover at the periphery - fleeting, shadowy and obscure. We occasionally glimpse the tangible agents, but the cosmic powers remain shrouded. I think Lyanna found out Jon would be a champion for these powers and asked Ned to kill him to try and prevent another mini apocalypse.

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Precioushobbits said:

I think Lyanna found out Jon would be a champion for these powers and asked Ned to kill him to try and prevent another mini apocalypse

Ned is certainly reluctant to agree to Lyanna's last wishes; reducing her to begging and pleading on her death bed.  I'm not sure the choice was killing her newborn.  Ned recalls Lyanna pleading when he must kill Lady knowing he was killing an innocent.  He thinks she deserved better than a butcher.  I'm inclined to think Ned was faced with the same dilemma with Jon where Robert is concerned.  The killing of innocents is a sore point between them including sending an assassin to kill a pregnant Dany.  These are situations that skirt around the truth of Lyanna.  There are echoes of Lyanna in both scenes.   The wound that never really heals.

Ned also skirts around his own culpability.  He dreams of reaching for the crown of roses and cutting himself on the thorns hidden beneath.  He comes away with a bloody hand.  He thinks that it was the wolf blood that brought Lyanna and Brandon to an early death.  Perhaps he means his own wolf blood in pursuing the crown with Robert. 

He feels guilt about lying to Robert.  But where is the lie?  Does Ned lie to himself about what he wanted.  He denies wanting what was meant for Brandon.  Perhaps he is as conflicted about his place as Jon is about his own place.

I question whether Aegon existence is another secret that Ned has kept and who the Kingsguard were actually protecting.  I wonder if he lied to Robert about his existence.  If this is why he thinks he let others "kill" Robert.

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

Absolutely.  The Mother of Dragons.  Does Quaithe really want her to go to Asshai?  How do you figure?

They explicitly discussed it:

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 The woman took a step backward. “You must leave this city soon, Daenerys Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leave it at all.”
            Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. “Where would you have me go?” she asked.
            “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”
            Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. “Will the Asshai’i give me an army?” she demanded. “Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?”
            “Truth,” said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd.”

One thing that has to be kept in mind for any of these characters who are allegedly "helping" Dany.  They are all self interested to an extent (with the possible exception of Missendei) and they all want something from her, usually connected to her dragons.

I think what Quaithe wants is something more.  She is less interested in the three dragons Dany currently possesses, and more interested in having her go to Asshai where there are many, more dragon eggs left to hatch.

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He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think what Quaithe wants is something more.  She is less interested in the three dragons Dany currently possesses, and more interested in having her go to Asshai where there are many, more dragon eggs left to hatch.

And yet she is sending her North to pass beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains in Vaes Dothrak.  I expect Dany will have another vision when she is indoctrinated by the crones.  One that will include truths about Asshai which Dany must learn in order to choose her path forward, before she goes South to Volantis.  The Red Priesthood may want Dany for their own purposes as the chosen one/mother of dragons.  

The fact that Bran sees a wild dragon in Asshai may explain why there is ambient fire magic.

Going back to the Undying; their declaration that Dany is the mother of dragons and a child of three could mean there are two more 'Valyrian sphyinx' who's purpose is yet unknown.    The dragon with three heads could refer specifically to the dragon bloodline of the prophecy rather than who will ride a dragon.  What if Aegon, Dany and Jon are all Rhaegar's offspring with a specific destiny?  Which has not yet been revealed.  The warning that prophecy will bite your prick off applies as much to characters in story as it does to readers.  

Dany wakes dragons from stone bringing magic back into the world and Aegon, Targ or Blackfyre means to take the realm back under Targ control.  Jon's arc is a question that will go in ways we don't fully comprehend.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

 

Howling alone forever in the darkness sounds like an echo of Jon or even Bran howling in the darkness, if the icy breath catches Dany.    

[TheLastWolf]

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

Absolutely.  The Mother of Dragons.  Does Quaithe really want her to go to Asshai?  How do you figure?

What about to Westeros from the other unknown side (go east to go west)? Elissa Farman gets my bells ringing. 

[LynnS]

Another set of three children with a role to play in prophecy are: Cersei, Jaimie and Tyrion.  Speculation about Jaimie and Cersei being sired by Aerys might be correct.  This business of Targs dreaming of a white city pops up in one of Cersei's dreams:

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei III

"Would that we could do the same to the rest of this foul castle," said Cersei. "After the war I mean to build a new palace beyond the river." She had dreamed of it the night before last, a magnificent white castle surrounded by woods and gardens, long leagues from the stinks and noise of King's Landing. "This city is a cesspit. For half a groat I would move the court to Lannisport and rule the realm from Casterly Rock."

 

If Jaimie and Cersei are another set of Valyrian Sphynx; I'm not sure what to make of Tyrion.  He seems to be super sensitive to some things:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning.

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

 

At the very least; Tyrion is a chimera; someone who drinks himself into oblivion to avoid dreaming; not unlike Dareon the Dreamer.

Certainly; I think Jaimie has a destiny we don't yet understand.  If the song of ice and fire is replaying old songs/stories with different variations (visiting old friends from time to time); then Bran's vision of Jaimie shining with the light of the sun is setting the stage for something.  Dreams of Jaimie are quickly squashed by the 3EC,  with the explanation that Bran doesn't need it - yet.

I can very easily see the story of Galladon of Morne playing out between Jaimie and Brienne, with the Dawn Sword ending up in Jaimie's hand where it will shine like the sun.

While Jon may represent the Sword of the Night Watch oath; Jaimie may represent the shield with light shileding them against the darkness.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

The table itself was old weirwood, pale as bone, carved in the shape of a huge shield supported by three white stallions. By tradition the Lord Commander sat at the top of the shield, and the brothers three to a side, on the rare occasions when all seven were assembled. The book that rested by his elbow was massive; two feet tall and a foot and a half wide, a thousand pages thick, fine white vellum bound between covers of bleached white leather with gold hinges and fastenings. The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book.

 

We have some glimpse of the weirwood in the godsgrove in Kingslanding.  Where did they get the weirwood for the Lord Commander's table? 

So who is the third white stallion?  Sam of Horn Hill?

 

[Frey family reunion]

55 minutes ago, LynnS said:

And yet she is sending her North to pass beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains in Vaes Dothrak.

We can interpret her mantra to mean several different things, the problem is Quaithe is pretty specific when she tells Dany she wants her to go to Asshai.  So there is no reason to assume that when Dany sees visions of her later on that her meaning has changed..  

Dany interprets what Quiathe tells her as Quaithe wanting her to go to Asshai.  Dany asks Quaithe why should she go to Asshai, and rather than Quaithe correcting her, Quaithe gives her a reason to go to Asshai.  So Quaithe confirms that's where she wants Dany to go.  Thus, despite whatever other alternate meanings one can try to give Quaithe's message, it isn't Quaithe's meaning.  Quaithe very specifically wants her to go to Asshai.

[LynnS]

47 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

What about to Westeros from the other unknown side (go east to go west)? Elissa Farman gets my bells ringing. 

Yep, I do not know.  Volantis seems an obvious destination for South.  Going East to go West? Does she have to cross the Sunset Sea to get to Westeros?  I'm not familiar with the Elissa Farman connection.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We can interpret her mantra to mean several different things, the problem is Quaithe is pretty specific when she tells Dany she wants her to go to Asshai.  So there is no reason to assume that when Dany sees visions of her later on that her meaning has changed..  

Dany interprets what Quiathe tells her as Quaithe wanting her to go to Asshai.  Dany asks Quaithe why should she go to Asshai, and rather than Quaithe correcting her, Quaithe gives her a reason to go to Asshai.  So Quaithe confirms that's where she wants Dany to go.  Thus, despite whatever other alternate meanings one can try to give Quaithe's message, it isn't Quaithe's meaning.  Quaithe very specifically wants her to go to Asshai.

This is Dany's interpretation and yes, Quaithe does not correct her.  That doesn't mean Quaithe intends for her to actually go to Asshai.  in a sense Quaithe is avoiding being too specific about the choices Dany must make and perhaps spilling the beans on prophecy is a bad idea.  The character either attempts to avoid prophecy or make it happen.  

I'm not sure what is motivating Quaithe at this point and if she is someone Dany can trust or not.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

They explicitly discussed it:

One thing that has to be kept in mind for any of these characters who are allegedly "helping" Dany.  They are all self interested to an extent (with the possible exception of Missendei) and they all want something from her, usually connected to her dragons.

I think what Quaithe wants is something more.  She is less interested in the three dragons Dany currently possesses, and more interested in having her go to Asshai where there are many, more dragon eggs left to hatch.

 

Always worth bearing in mind of course that Quaithe conceals her face behind a red mask

[alienarea]

And maybe Aerys fathered Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion.

The dragon has three heads but he doesn't know.

Rhaegar, (f)Aegon and Daenerys are less relevant.

 

[TheLastWolf]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yep, I do not know.  Volantis seems an obvious destination for South. 

Hmm

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

Going East to go West? Does she have to cross the Sunset Sea to get to Westeros?

Exactly

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not familiar with the Elissa Farman connection.

I'd get you muddled up if I tried to explain, here's the wiki

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...Neither Targaryen princess knew of Elissa's destination, and she discreetly stole three dragon eggs from the Dragonstone hatcheries. She departed for Driftmark, where she took ship to Pentos and made her way overland to Braavos under the name Alys Westhill and secured an audience with the Sealord of Braavos, selling him the eggs. With the gold, Elissa financed the building of her carrack, the Sun Chaser.^[1] She set sail with a word of caution from the Sealord, due to the scandal that the theft of the dragon eggs had caused the Targaryens.^[7] Androw fell into depression at Dragonstone, as Elissa had been his closest friend.^[1] Septon Barth, the Hand of the King to Jaehaerys I Targaryen, was sent to Braavos to investigate the missing dragon eggs. The Sealord denied having them, but agreed to reduce the Iron Throne's debts to the Iron Bank of Braavos.^[7]

In Oldtown in 56 AC, Elissa searched for a crew for her ship for her voyage across the Sunset Sea, as she had believed since childhood that undiscovered lands existed west of Westeros. Words of her efforts reached Lord Donnel Hightower, and his grandsons, Ser Eustace and Ser Norman, pledged their ships, Lady Meredith and Autumn Moon, to her voyage. King Jaehaerys ordered Donnel to take Elissa into custody, but Elissa's three swift ships evaded the twelve pursuers sent by Lord Hightower.^[7]

When he returned to Oldtown on Lady Meredith in 59 AC, Eustace Hightower explained that they had sailed south by southwest years ago but lost Norman and his Autumn Moon to a storm. Elissa's crew towed Lady Meredith to three exotic islands, which she named Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. Despite the protests of Eustace, Elissa continued westward on Sun Chaser and was never seen again.^[2]

Many years later, during his second great voyage on Sea Snake, Corlys Velaryon believed he saw the old, weathered Sun Chaser in Asshai.^[2] It is therefore possible that Elissa reached Essos by sailing west from Westeros.

And yes, those three same eggs are Dany's dragons

From an ignorant younger me

 

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I'd get you muddled up if I tried to explain, here's the wiki

Thanks.  That's interesting.  So Shierra Seastar is out of favour?

[LynnS]

An explanation of House of Dragons intro:

 

[TheLastWolf]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Thanks.  That's interesting.  So Shierra Seastar is out of favour?

Entirely another basket of eggs, I think she planned Summerhall, behind BR, the 3EC (herself) Quaithe etc. DM Meg(orova) for more, but she's hibernating, ironically, till TWoW is out.

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, alienarea said:

And maybe Aerys fathered Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion.

The dragon has three heads but he doesn't know.

Rhaegar, (f)Aegon and Daenerys are less relevant.

 

According to Joe Magician Aerys the Mad King had dreams of building a magnificant white city.  It looks like Cersei has a similar dream.  The PWIP comes from the line of Aerys and his wife and not from Aerys and Johanna Lannister.   Rhaegar is relevant if the three heads come from his line.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Entirely another basket of eggs, I think she planned Summerhall, behind BR, the 3EC (herself) Quaithe etc. DM Meg(orova) for more, but she's hibernating, ironically, till TWoW is out.

Quaithe's red wooden mask is curious.  I'm reminded of Morna wood witch and her mask of weirwood.  Also that weirwoods are sometimes depicted as having a red face.  Given Shierra's connection to Bloodraven;  I wonder about the meaning of the mask or what it could represent.

[TheLastWolf]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Quaithe's red wooden mask is curious.  I'm reminded of Morna wood witch and her mask of weirwood.  Also that weirwoods are sometimes depicted as having a red face.  Given Shierra's connection to Bloodraven;  I wonder about the meaning of the mask or what it could represent.

Its painted/lacquered though, not inherently red, so yes could be weirwood.