Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[LongRider]

16 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

 

 

we keep going back to Jon's role as a Stark more than anything else which I totally agree with , right? and let's face it , "the bastard saves the world" is a better story than "secret prince saves the world" . so , what if Jon's father is a nobody? ~snip~ then , let's go to Arya Stark whose first crush, Gendry, is technically a nobody and we can be sure when Arya grows up and hooks up with someone , it's probably gonna be with someone of low birth and it's probably not necessarily going to be within wedlock. clearly , that can be some sort of parallel . as for Ned's motivation for raising Jon as his own , well , no Westerosi noble man wants people to know his sister was not "innocent".  now , I have no clue how Rhaegar comes into the story or what promise Lyanna begged for, but that's my theory .what do you think?

Maybe, your idea made go ‘whoa’ because who else in family hung out with, well not a lowborn but barely a noble?  Sansa hanging with the Hound while in KL , and thinks of him and has the un-kiss to think about after they parted.

Also, after her experience of being treated like a valuable broodmare for royalty and nobles, now wants a husband who wants her for herself and not her claim. 

So you could be on to something, as the Stark girls grow, they want their own agency and choices—-just like Lyanna. 
 

I like it.   

 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

have I gone full heretic?

I'm all for out of the box thinking and re-assessing assumptions.  It's makes me think about stuff and that's what I like.  So cheers!

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

have I gone full heretic?

Probably... whatever way you want to look at at it, an internal conversation in which Lord Eddard [who almost up until this point has been seeing Jon every day] first observes that he hasn't thought about the Prince for years and then muses on the unlikelihood that he [the Prince] has ever visited a brothel, is not how Lord Eddard is going to think about his sister's lover/rapist

[EggBlue]

20 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Probably... whatever way you want to look at at it, an internal conversation in which Lord Eddard [who almost up until this point has been seeing Jon every day] first observes that he hasn't thought about the Prince for years and then muses on the unlikelihood that he [the Prince] has ever visited a brothel, is not how Lord Eddard is going to think about his sister's lover/rapist

I fully agree. and that is why I honestly think that's where either ser Arthur Dayne (who Ned becomes clearly upset talking of) or  Ser Nobody enter . though , I realize neither of these are popular opinions

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I fully agree. and that is why I honestly think that's where either ser Arthur Dayne (who Ned becomes clearly upset talking of) or  Ser Nobody enter . though , I realize neither of these are popular opinions

Well in the end, what's clearly important is that Jon is the son of Lyanna and a son of Winterfell. His father is only of secondary importance [if at all] unless you demand that he be a Targaryen.

[EggBlue]

Just now, Black Crow said:

Well in the end, what's clearly important is that Jon is the son of Lyanna and a son of Winterfell. His father is only of secondary importance [if at all] unless you demand that he be a Targaryen.

that's true . however , it'll be like George trolling us if Jon does have Targaryen heritage and he's received absolutely nothing magical of that bloodline . that's why RLJ sucks.

[LongRider]

He did receive the magic of the warg from his Stark bloodline and that’s what matters. He just doesn’t know it yet. 
(sez the one who doesn’t think that Jon is dead and will warg Ghost).   

[LynnS]

For crying out loud!  Why does this have to be framed as a shake-up ,as if something has gone wrong?  Maybe something is going right and he's needed for another prequel series.

 

[Black Crow]

36 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

that's true . however , it'll be like George trolling us if Jon does have Targaryen heritage and he's received absolutely nothing magical of that bloodline . that's why RLJ sucks.

Has it not occurred to you that GRRM is trolling and that the excitement over the puerile R+L=J/Azor Ahai has successfully camouflaged what's really going on. This is after all the Song of Ice and Fire 

[LongRider]

I feel similar about the Jon wargs Ghost and then gets reanimated train. Don’t think it is gonna happen.    

[Black Crow]

Of course it will, but he'll be icy cold and his eyes will be blue  

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

You folk swim in the deep water.

Every time I see your pen name, I laugh.  It's funny and creative and for some reason, I think you are Australian.

I need a better pen name.  Recently I was listening to Sean on History of Westeros podcast and whenever he said Viserys Targaryen, I heard it as Thesaurus Targaryen.  I think that will be my new pen name somewhere.

[LongRider]

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Of course it will, but he'll be icy cold and his eyes will be blue  

       

Nope. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

34 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Every time I see your pen name, I laugh.  It's funny and creative and for some reason, I think you are Australian.

I need a better pen name.  Recently I was listening to Sean on History of Westeros podcast and whenever he said Viserys Targaryen, I heard it as Thesaurus Targaryen.  I think that will be my new pen name somewhere.

Just a Canadian who's a big fan of the blues, but that's very nice to read. Thesaurus Targaryen would be a good one. I'd like it if you kept your picture though. I see it and I know it's attached to a post worth checking out.

[Frey family reunion]

14 hours ago, LongRider said:

I feel similar about the Jon wargs Ghost and then gets reanimated train. Don’t think it is gonna happen.    

I'm utterly, utterly convinced that George has set this up to be the result since AGOT through ADWD.  I could probably write essays on this theory (hell I probably have through this message board), I think there is so much foreshadowing, back story, symbolism ect. to justify this was the direction he was heading.

But, as the years roll by from Dance, and the more I hear about George having to rewrite significant passages, the more I think you may be right.  Especially his bit about being painted in a corner by killing off a significant character.  

I'm beginning to think that the direction he was going to with Jon, just didn't work, and Jon was the character that may be causing the biggest delay and rewrites.  

 

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I have no clue how Rhaegar comes into the story or what promise Lyanna begged for, but that's my theory .what do you think?

I know what you mean.  When GRRM says that readers make assumptions about things and he then turns things on their head because he doesn't want readers to be too comfortable or familiar;  I throw everything out and start again.  

If you turn rogue on the most accepted assumptions; then yes you are a heretic.  Although I constantly remind myself not to be too comfortable with where I hang my hat; lest I end up eating said hat.

At this point, I can see Rhaegar as Jon's Daddy but the implications I draw from that are on the road less travelled.  Lyanna was either pregnant when Rhaegar fell upon her or she became pregnant afterwards.   She was either at the ToJ/Starfll or she was somewhere else.

On a History of Westeros podcast about Asshai; it was pointed out that GRRM offers the answers to questions before we even know what the question is.  Mirri mentioning Marwyn in a GoT was the example used.  We are given the answer to who will tell Dany about Asshai, or how will she learn about it, if she is not actually going there.

As to  Lyanna 's location when Ned found her:  I keep going back to the Quiet Isle where sometimes noble ladies came for help.  Elder Brother is a skilled healer but we are told that they didn't always have a skilled healer.  The brothers may have had to rely on their butcher to sew them up or remove an appendage, for example.   We know that Ned thought that Lady deserved better than a butcher and that his thoughts of Lyanna dying were underneath the surface.

Quiet Isle is a good place for noble ladies if they are keeping a secret since the Brothers take a vow of silence.  Disguising yourself as a Septa or Silent Sister puts a stop on any casual inquiries.  It also explains why there were other people there perhaps including Silent Sisters who would prepare Lyanna's body.

It's the casual mention of these things that makes me question the accepted wisdom.

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I thought that this forum was about the Song of Ice and Fire - that looks uncommonly like someone riding a Star Wars speeder bike

Fixed it!

 

[alienarea]

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I thought that this forum was about the Song of Ice and Fire - that looks uncommonly like someone riding a Star Wars speeder bike

In the end, the white walkers are cursed Wampas.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Has it not occurred to you that GRRM is trolling and that the excitement over the puerile R+L=J/Azor Ahai has successfully camouflaged what's really going on. This is after all the Song of Ice and Fire 

I wonder about this a lot. Could he have done that though? RLJ has been so propagated by the internet and the fandom  and then 'confirmed' by the tv show fan fic knockoff. Could Mr Martin have really been that confident when he started the tale that the very subtle clues he dropped about Jon were enough that he had sufficiently pointed readers in the RLJ direction without commiting the story to R+L=J? I just don't think in a universe without the internet that a theory of Jon's secret Targ heritage would have caught on so there wouldn't have been any widespread shock or reveal when it came out that it was a red herring. It wouldn't have provided any cover.

[Black Crow]

47 minutes ago, alienarea said:

In the end, the white walkers are cursed Wampas.

And the Targaryens were Jedi - no wonder they were all killed off