Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[Black Crow]

38 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I wonder about this a lot. Could he have done that though? RLJ has been so propagated by the internet and the fandom  and then 'confirmed' by the tv show fan fic knockoff. Could Mr Martin have really been that confident when he started the tale that the very subtle clues he dropped about Jon were enough that he had sufficiently pointed readers in the RLJ direction without commiting the story to R+L=J? I just don't think in a universe without the internet that a theory of Jon's secret Targ heritage would have caught on so there wouldn't have been any widespread shock or reveal when it came out that it was a red herring. It wouldn't have provided any cover.

Well now's not the moment to rehash all the old arguments, especially about the mummers' version, but suffice to say that the "fan fic knockoff" enthusiastically propagated the theory and then fell flat on its face [to the anguish and distress of said fans] when nothing happened

[LongRider]

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm utterly, utterly convinced that George has set this up to be the result since AGOT through ADWD.  I could probably write essays on this theory (hell I probably have through this message board), I think there is so much foreshadowing, back story, symbolism ect. to justify this was the direction he was heading.

But, as the years roll by from Dance, and the more I hear about George having to rewrite significant passages, the more I think you may be right.  Especially his bit about being painted in a corner by killing off a significant character.  

I'm beginning to think that the direction he was going to with Jon, just didn't work, and Jon was the character that may be causing the biggest delay and rewrites.  

 

Thanks for your comments, interesting and food for thought.  What GRRM has in mind I really can't say, now though, we have to wait and hope WOW comes out.

[Yaya]

sorry to interrupt & be off topic but i was just reading on the general forum the 'about castles' topic ...

have you all ever talked about how the castle of casterly rock is so never mentioned much?

what are the dark mysteries of that castle? 
has the heresy discussed this already?

ps - y'all need a 'small questions' for heresy topics 

[Matthew.]

23 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I just don't think in a universe without the internet that a theory of Jon's secret Targ heritage would have caught on so there wouldn't have been any widespread shock or reveal when it came out that it was a red herring. It wouldn't have provided any cover.

I agree, which is why I find that particular interpretation of RLJ unconvincing.

The narrative of aGoT, in particular, is being crafted in the early to mid 90s with an expectation on GRRM's part that he is writing a trilogy that will be finished within a reasonable time frame--he could not have remotely envisioned the internet fan culture that would spring up around the novels. 

[Precioushobbits]

6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I agree, which is why I find that particular interpretation of RLJ unconvincing.

The narrative of aGoT, in particular, is being crafted in the early to mid 90s with an expectation on GRRM's part that he is writing a trilogy that will be finished within a reasonable time frame--he could not have remotely envisioned the internet fan culture that would spring up around the novels. 

25 years of rabid fans stewing over the unfinished story makes lots of otherwise subtle details seem so blatant as to be red herrings.  I think GRRM has been slowed trying to tie everything together and still surprise, delight, and shock while delivering his bleak message. 

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I agree, which is why I find that particular interpretation of RLJ unconvincing.

The narrative of aGoT, in particular, is being crafted in the early to mid 90s with an expectation on GRRM's part that he is writing a trilogy that will be finished within a reasonable time frame--he could not have remotely envisioned the internet fan culture that would spring up around the novels. 

You've been around long enough to recall how R+L=J partisans used to proclaim that GRRM had never anticipated that the secret would be out had the internet not been invented, and with that they were off to do some more clever textual analysis

[alienarea]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

You've been around long enough to recall how R+L=J partisans used to proclaim that GRRM had never anticipated that the secret would be out had the internet not been invented, and with that they were off to do some more clever textual analysis

A young girl gets kidnapped. Her fiancé starts a rebellion to get her back, claiming her kidnapper raped her a thousand times. He kills the kidnapper. The brother of the kidnapped girl finds her dying after the rebellion has successfully ended and returns with a baby he claims is his son from an undisclosed love affair.

Of course, like the people of Westeros, nobody would have guessed that the surprise baby is the son of the kidnapped girl and her kidnapper.

This is an insult to my intelligence.

 

[Matthew.]

My point about the Internet culture that has sprung up around ASOIAF is not about whether or not RLJ is "difficult" to solve, it's the notion that its primary narrative function is to distract--that, having solved the mystery, people will become overly enamored in its potential consequences.

The latter premise is, IMO, heavily influenced by the fandom culture that has subsequently developed around ASOIAF, and not necessarily reflective of the way an author would have expected readers to engage with the story before the ascent of Internet discussions.

[LynnS]

On 9/3/2022 at 12:52 AM, Yaya said:

sorry to interrupt & be off topic but i was just reading on the general forum the 'about castles' topic ...

have you all ever talked about how the castle of casterly rock is so never mentioned much?

what are the dark mysteries of that castle? 
has the heresy discussed this already?

ps - y'all need a 'small questions' for heresy topics 

I don't think we have ever discussed Casterly Rock.  I'm not sure if it has dark secrets and I couldn't say it was memorable in any way off the top of my head.  Not much is said about it by Cersei, Jaimie or Tyrion which seems a bit strange.  Tyrion often refers the the bowels of Casterly Rock; I suppose he is referring to the sewage system he has to repair.  It seems a likely secret way into the castle should Tyrion decide to take it from within.

Jaimie has the dream of the cavern beneath Casterly Rock; a sea cave perhaps.  The best descrption of it is in the wiki:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Casterly_Rock

Quote

 

Casterly Rock is carved out of a colossal stone hill beside the Sunset Sea.^[2] It is popularly believed to resemble a lion in repose at sunset.^[3]

The Casterlys of antiquity built a ringfort on the peak, and as millenia have passed its natural defenses have been expanded with walls, gates, and watchtowers.^[3] The base of the Rock contains large sea-carved caverns. The stone has been mined for thousands of years, so there are hundreds of mineshafts in the depths of the Rock, as well as yet untouched gold veins.^[3]

The Rock has been measured at three times the height of the Wall or the Hightower of Oldtown. It is almost two leagues long from west to east, and contains tunnels, dungeons, storerooms, barracks, halls, stables, stairways, courtyards, balconies, and gardens.^[3] In the bowels of the Rock are rooms where caged lions were once kept,^[4] cells for the worst prisoners,^[5] as well as oubliettes so small that a man cannot even sit down in one.^[6] The castle contains a sept.^[7]

The Lion's Mouth, the main entry to Casterly Rock, is an enormous natural cavern reaching two hundred feet high. Its steps are now wide enough for twenty riders. Its port has docks, wharves, and shipyards and is accessible by longships and cogs.^[3] From below the Rock thunder can be heard, where the sea comes in.^[8]

The Golden Gallery contains treasures of the Lannisters, including gilded ornaments and walls.^[3] The Hall of Heroes is where the Lannisters and their close kin who have died valiantly are interred.^[9] The armor of Lannisters of old are also displayed in the hall.^[3] The Stone Garden is a godswood in a cave within the Rock. It contains a twisted weirwood, a tenth the size of Raventree Hall's, whose tangled roots have almost filled the cave, choking out all other growth.^[3][10][11]

 

 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

My point about the Internet culture that has sprung up around ASOIAF is not about whether or not RLJ is "difficult" to solve, it's the notion that its primary narrative function is to distract--that, having solved the mystery, people will become overly enamored in its potential consequences.

The latter premise is, IMO, heavily influenced by the fandom culture that has subsequently developed around ASOIAF, and not necessarily reflective of the way an author would have expected readers to engage with the story before the ascent of Internet discussions.

I didn't start reading ASoIAF before 2010. At this time I was done with Star Wars and alternate history (origin of the Sphinx and so on) and had just finished reading another version of Troy.

 

[LynnS]

On 9/3/2022 at 12:52 AM, Yaya said:

sorry to interrupt & be off topic but i was just reading on the general forum the 'about castles' topic ...

Here's something you might find interesting:

 

[Frey family reunion]

19 hours ago, Matthew. said:

My point about the Internet culture that has sprung up around ASOIAF is not about whether or not RLJ is "difficult" to solve, it's the notion that its primary narrative function is to distract--that, having solved the mystery, people will become overly enamored in its potential consequences.

The latter premise is, IMO, heavily influenced by the fandom culture that has subsequently developed around ASOIAF, and not necessarily reflective of the way an author would have expected readers to engage with the story before the ascent of Internet discussions.

I wish I could find the exact GOT DVD where GRRM discusses this in one of the audio commentaries.  But the gist of it was that when he set out to write ASOIAF his goal was to surprise discerning readers, readers like his mother.  He described his mother as someone who could always figure out the plot twists of the shows they watched together.

AGOT came on the heels of a resurgence in epic fantasy in the late 80's early 90's.  And a lot of the fantasy series of the time were treading heavily on the idea of the hidden king/messiah.  A character who grew up by adoptive parent or parents, unaware of his true origin, until it later became revealed.

The two most influential of the epic fantasies of this time period were Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, Thorn trilogy and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series.  GRRM, umm, "borrows" heavily from these series for ASOIAF.

Tad William's main character was secretly an heir to the title of the Storm Kings of that world.  While Robert Jordan's main character was secretly the Dragon Reborn due to his secret origin.

So doubtless as GRRM would have been aware, the devoted readers of epic fantasy, the readers/audience that he was coveting for his series, would have been preconditioned to look out for the trope of the Hidden King.

The difference in GRRM's work is that he gave enough clues early on in his story to help lead the reader to that conclusion, albeit fairly subtly (some may argue not so subtly).  Or so I originally thought when I ready AGOT back in the mid 90's.

Now, I wonder if his intention all along was to lead "discerning readers" into coming to the incorrect conclusion, by helping them along a little too much.  And I don't mean exactly, that Jon Snow isn't a hidden king.  He just may be a hidden king in a manner or of a trope that the epic fantasy readers of the day wouldn't have been quite as preconceived to have considered.

I think George is reaching further back into a more primal notion.  The tale of the Corn King found in various forms in various mythos.  A hero who sacrifices himself for the realm, who's death and rebirth plays an important part for the rebirth of his land.  

Now if Jon's true role as King is of the Corn King variety, it doesn't necessarily mean that Rhaegar isn't secretly his father.  It's just that Rhaegar doesn't necessarily have to be.  Because Jon's role doesn't necessarily rely on him inheriting an Iron Throne or in him riding a dragon.  

I don't think any of this is hinged on "internet culture".  There has always been a collective fandom of sci-fi/fantasy readers even before the internet.  The biggest commonality is that they read the same books.  So there did exist a collective consciousness in a sense, based on the types of books and themes, and plot twists that were popular at the time.  I think GRRM may have been playing on those expectations when he wrote AGOT.

 

[alienarea]

32 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I wish I could find the exact GOT DVD where GRRM discusses this in one of the audio commentaries.  But the gist of it was that when he set out to write ASOIAF his goal was to surprise discerning readers, readers like his mother.  He described his mother as someone who could always figure out the plot twists of the shows they watched together.

AGOT came on the heels of a resurgence in epic fantasy in the late 80's early 90's.  And a lot of the fantasy series of the time were treading heavily on the idea of the hidden king/messiah.  A character who grew up by adoptive parent or parents, unaware of his true origin, until it later became revealed.

The two most influential of the epic fantasies of this time period were Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, Thorn trilogy and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series.  GRRM, umm, "borrows" heavily from these series for ASOIAF.

Tad William's main character was secretly an heir to the title of the Storm Kings of that world.  While Robert Jordan's main character was secretly the Dragon Reborn due to his secret origin.

So doubtless as GRRM would have been aware, the devoted readers of epic fantasy, the readers/audience that he was coveting for his series, would have been preconditioned to look out for the trope of the Hidden King.

The difference in GRRM's work is that he gave enough clues early on in his story to help lead the reader to that conclusion, albeit fairly subtly (some may argue not so subtly).  Or so I originally thought when I ready AGOT back in the mid 90's.

Now, I wonder if his intention all along was to lead "discerning readers" into coming to the incorrect conclusion, by helping them along a little too much.  And I don't mean exactly, that Jon Snow isn't a hidden king.  He just may be a hidden king in a manner or of a trope that the epic fantasy readers of the day wouldn't have been quite as preconceived to have considered.

I think George is reaching further back into a more primal notion.  The tale of the Corn King found in various forms in various mythos.  A hero who sacrifices himself for the realm, who's death and rebirth plays an important part for the rebirth of his land.  

Now if Jon's true role as King is of the Corn King variety, it doesn't necessarily mean that Rhaegar isn't secretly his father.  It's just that Rhaegar doesn't necessarily have to be.  Because Jon's role doesn't necessarily rely on him inheriting an Iron Throne or in him riding a dragon.  

I don't think any of this is hinged on "internet culture".  There has always been a collective fandom of sci-fi/fantasy readers even before the internet.  The biggest commonality is that they read the same books.  So there did exist a collective consciousness in a sense, based on the types of books and themes, and plot twists that were popular at the time.  I think GRRM may have been playing on those expectations when he wrote AGOT.

 

And I have a suspicion this is the reason why he hasn't been able to finish (yet). He started writing the series not to tell a story, but to play with expectations.

[Precioushobbits]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

And I have a suspicion this is the reason why he hasn't been able to finish (yet). He started writing the series not to tell a story, but to play with expectations.

Yes, and it’s rather like watching an episode of intervention. Tragic, ugly, depressing, and utterly captivating. Ironically, I’m the addict here. A sane reader would have moved on long ago. 

[alienarea]

As we are on page 20:

The next heresy should be Heresy 244, as we had 242 twice, shouldn't it?

[TheLastWolf]

11 hours ago, alienarea said:

The next heresy should be Heresy 244, as we had 242 twice, shouldn't it?

, mods pls lock this up

[Nadden]

On 8/8/2022 at 6:08 AM, Black Crow said:

but the only "confirmed" sightings in the book are the six who scragged Ser Waymar

Well I wouldn’t call them confirmed:)

There was one white shadow that was Waymar’s reflection in the “great rock” that was a black obsidian mirror.

And six watchers that were the children of the forest; not sleeping; not dead; just meditating.

The pales shapes were just the moonlight from the bejeweled sword Waymar unsheathed.

[Black Crow]

That's not what the prologue as written says. Its pretty straightforward

[Melifeather]

We should copy over the current discussion and lock the older threads. I just realized that I wasn't commenting on the current thread.