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Heresy 242 Jon Stark


Black Crow
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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

IIRC, Ser Puddles appears from out behind a pine tree after it unloads a pile of snow.

The obvious answer here is that Ser Puddles formed his body from the pile of snow being unloaded from the tree

Edited by Black Crow
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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The obvious answer here is that Ser Puddles formed his body from the pile of snow being unloaded from the tree

Yes and from Varamyr's prologue we know that  souls not only ride the wind; they can enter trees, stone and soil.

The Musgrave Ritual must be answered.  What is the secret of the crypts and why is Jon pulled there in his dreams?

I'm reminded of the original declaration of the NW:  We are the Watchers on the Walls (plural).  We are not just talking about THE Wall but wards as walls.   According to legend, the Night Watch was originally formed before the Ice Wall existed but then became it's custodians.  So what walls/wards are we talking about besides the ice wall?  My guess is the curtain of light at the top of the world is one.  Followed by the crypts of Winterfell.  The Wall itself separates the heart of Winter from the crypts of Winterfell and the souls that are trapped there with stone and iron.

I suspect that the horn (of the King) of Winter releases those souls and should that happen, the ice Wall will have fallen, in the sense that it keeps the heart of winter and Winterfell separated.  If the dead kings of winter rise as an analogue to White Walkers south of the Wall; the purpose of the Wall is defeated.  A good reason to disable the horn itself and bury it beyond the Wall.

The horn has been given to Jon, in a sense. So it belongs to him., the next King of Winter. 

Edited by LynnS
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Before looking at the Musgrave Ritual, I think its worth pausing for a moment to look at Ser Puddles, just to summarise where he firs in, because while we've long noted the manner of his going, the whole thing needs putting together.

There's a tendency to see the Others/White Walkers as a mysterious race up north, just itching to invade Westeros' green and pleasant land.

In fact we have stories relating to individuals both in legend, by report from near Eastwatch and of course by Craster's wives, but the only "confirmed" sightings in the book are the six who scragged Ser Waymar, and Ser Puddles. We don't know anything about the six, except that its cold and they appear through the trees.

Ser Puddles' appearance is both specific and consistent with other clues. GRRM first tells us that they aint dead [thus clearly distinguishing them from the Wights] but are a different kind of life. Stannis speaks of them being formed of snow and ice and in the context of that statement he's referencing familiar knowledge/stories rather than a unique opinion. Then we have the Varamyr prologue where we learn of the journey between skinchanger hosts [ie; there's not always an instantaneous transfer]. Putting those scraps together with the appearance - and disappearance - of Ser Puddles, we find...

An incorporeal soul riding the cold winds. Snow falls or is dislodged from a tree. Ser Puddles appears with a body formed from snow and ice. Sam, by accident, stabs him with a dragonglass dagger and in GRRM's words breaks the spell holding the body together. Ser Puddles blows away.

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44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

An incorporeal soul riding the cold winds. Snow falls or is dislodged from a tree. Ser Puddles appears with a body formed from snow and ice. Sam, by accident, stabs him with a dragonglass dagger and in GRRM's words breaks the spell holding the body together. Ser Puddles blows away.

Then Small Paul is wighted (off page) and specifically tracks down Sam and Gilly.

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On 8/7/2022 at 2:40 AM, Black Crow said:

The obvious answer here is that Ser Puddles formed his body from the pile of snow being unloaded from the tree

When something freezes it actually releases heat energy.  My guess is Ser puddles was created by a sudden freezing of the surrounding air, which in turn released heat energy to the area around it, which is why the snow partially melted and slid off the tree.

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

An interesting bit of speculation here concerning the difference between Ghost and the other direwolves at 11 minutes.  Joe Magician and BryndenBFish discussion.

https://youtu.be/KO4echyGaU8

What do you think? Is this Ghost or Jon making these observations?

It's been my contention for a while that when Jon dreams of the Bran tree opening his third eye, it was Bran actually opening Ghost's eye, while Ghost was in telepathic coneection with Jon.

Jon is seeing though Ghost's mind.  Bran makes a telepathic connection with Ghost, which Jon observes.  Notably nothing seems to change for Jon after this event.  Yet when he makes a telepathic connection with Ghost later on, Ghost appears to be communicating telepathically with his entire pack.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's been my contention for a while that when Jon dreams of the Bran tree opening his third eye, it was Bran actually opening Ghost's eye, while Ghost was in telepathic coneection with Jon.

Jon is seeing though Ghost's mind.  Bran makes a telepathic connection with Ghost, which Jon observes.  Notably nothing seems to change for Jon after this event.  Yet when he makes a telepathic connection with Ghost later on, Ghost appears to be communicating telepathically with his entire pack.

And with Jon, either telepathically, or through Jon's wolf dreams.  In the wolf dreams, he sees what Ghost sees:

Quote

from the Wiki....Ghost sleeps on a rug in Jon's new quarters, once those of Donal Noye in the armory.[24] When Jon has a wolf dream, he senses that the direwolf knows that two of his litter-mates have died. Jon dreams Ghost sensing Nymeria sing to the moon with her pack of wolves in the riverlands, and Shaggydog fighting a unicorn on Skagos. Even though Summer is alive, Ghost cannot sense him, and understands this is because Summer is beyond the Wall. When Jon wakes, he realizes that Ghost knows Grey Wind is dead.[24]

 

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10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's been my contention for a while that when Jon dreams of the Bran tree opening his third eye, it was Bran actually opening Ghost's eye, while Ghost was in telepathic coneection with Jon.

 

I think this is George playing around with time and causality again.  Bran does something that affects both Jon and Ghost.  He says "First, you have to open your eyes."  When Jon finds Ghost and he is the only pup who's eyes are open and Jon is alerted to Ghost when he hears something only he can hear.  He describes hearing Tree-Bran's silent shout at the Skirling Pass.  

So Jon and Ghost have had a psychic connection from the beginning, probably forged by Bran at the Skirling Pass when he opens their eyes.  

In terms of the difference in dreams; Ghost has not always been this acute in his observations.  Jon seems to be using Ghost's eyes and the POV sounds more Jon dominant instead of wolf controlled, to my ear.  This seems a pivotal point for Jon in his warging ability; perhaps like Bran opening his third eye.  He is then in control of warging at will. 

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On 8/13/2022 at 11:53 AM, Black Crow said:

GRRM latest podcast: 

I hope to wrap up the story line for one of the viewpoint characters of WINDS OF WINTER this week.   Maybe even two.

And there are like twelve or sixteen viewpoint characters?

It is titled The Winds of Winter because it will be released when hell freezes over.

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On 8/13/2022 at 5:53 AM, Black Crow said:

GRRM latest podcast: 

I hope to wrap up the story line for one of the viewpoint characters of WINDS OF WINTER this week.   Maybe even two.

He was working on Tyrion; so I wonder if he finished that and perhaps Barristan Selmy.   He worked on a clutch of Cersei chapters but not sure he's finished with her.  Telling us who he has wrapped up for WoW could be kind of spoilery.

Anyway, House of Dragons this Sunday - get out the popcorn.   I'm completely naive about what to expect, except that it will be a lavish production with some interesting actors and characters.  Huzzah!

Sorry, I don't have a lot to say about the current topic without repeating myself and possibly driving Brad Stark crazy.  :D

But here is something interesting:

 

Edited by LynnS
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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Anyway, House of Dragons this Sunday - get out the popcorn.   I'm completely naive about what to expect except that it will be a lavish production with some interesting actors and characters.

Right now I just hope that the mixed reviews for HotD don't get GRRM all depressed and derail his progress on Winds.

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8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Right now I just hope that the mixed reviews for HotD don't get GRRM all depressed and derail his progress on Winds.

I think he's made of sterner stuff.  There are always naysayers.  I've avoided any negativity about HoD so far.  My plan is to enjoy it for what it is, rather than what it's not.  I wouldn't know the difference anyway.  :D

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The first time I read 'finished' I assumed GRRM meant 2 POV characters were dead.  Now realizing that he probably just meant their chapters were done in Winds, I don't understand the "spoilery" - GRRM made the same comment on his blog that when he said he was working on a Tyrion chapters he gave away the fact that Tyrion was alive.  We can all assume with near certainty that Arya, Bran, Cersei, Jamie, Sansa, Samwell, Theon and Tyrion will not die off camera.  Saying he's working on their chapter(s) spoils absolutely nothing.  Saying he is wring a Jon Connington chapter (for example) only gives away that Jon Connington didn't die off camera since Dance, which while not something we can absolutely assume to be true, is hardly much of a revelation.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but we didn't have a single POV character die off camera so far.

 

I'd have to go back and reread, but I know the Red Wedding only had Rob and Cat's death once - so at least 1 POV died outside their own POV chapter.  But even still, both Rob and Cat died on camera.  This is completely different than, for example, hearing about Tyrion death only from other characters and never getting another Tyrion POV chapter.  This isn't so much a spoiler, as assuming any decent editor would catch such a mistake in the extremely unlikely event GRRM made it.

Edited by Brad Stark
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Aziz at History of Westeros scored an interview with George yesterday.  He announced that bit of good fortune a few days ago on the latest Valar Rereadis livestream.  Not sure how he did it; but I'm guessing Martin's people contacted him out of the blue as they did with Game of Owns.  So they went to Santa Fe and interviewed him before seeing a preview of House of Dragons at the Jean Cocteau Theater.   Robert (In Deep Geek) said on his livestream yesterday that the interview was an hour to an hour and a half long but didn't know anything else.  I'm curious as hell to find out what happened.  We'll have to stay tuned to History of Westeros for that one.

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