Aegon or fAegon? A closer look at Young Griff

[Wolfcrow]

5 hours ago, Crona said:

I do believe Ashara = Lemore too

Tyrion inspected her while naked and talked/thought even about her stretch marks, if she had hunting purple eyes, I think someone would have noticed.

[James Arryn]

Re: Elia…

 

Have we seen any other situation where a royal mother has had to make a desperate choice in a sudden crisis and chooses to save the heir? 
 

edit: as for the ambiguity, I mostly agree that it remaining ambiguous would perfectly fit GRRM’s style and thesis, but IF fAegon is fake, I have a hard time imaging George imagining the soul-crushing scene where JonCon finds out his last desperate hope for redemption was all a lie, and not writing it. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I'm not sure Varys would be able to convinceJonCon of much. JonCon wasn't, in his youth, the type to put a lot of stock in the words of a grovelling, lowborn, foreign, eunuch, spy.

That's precisely my point. I think it was more of a show and tell than trying to convince Jon Conn with words.

And you and I will have to keep disagreeing on who Septa Lemore is. But it's good to see you around

[Kienn]

On 6/26/2022 at 7:30 PM, Aebram said:

No character ever claims or even suggests that Young Griff is an impostor.

Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly both do actually…

 

That said, personally I lean towards RAegon but for different reasons

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

It's a great topic and I would argue that the text begs us to ask the question, who is Young Griff really? Hell, who is Varys? Who is Illyrio?

I think we have strong reason to suspect all three have a drop of dragon blood, but in my mind there is little doubt that Young Griff is not the child of Rhaegar and Elia Martell.

Tyrion kind of does though...

"A true friend, our Lord Connington. He must be, to remain so fiercely loyal to the grandson of the king who took his lands and titles and sent him into exile. A pity about that. Elsewise Prince Rhaegar's friend might have been on hand when my father sacked King's Landing, to save Prince Rhaegar's precious little son from getting his royal brains dashed out against a wall."
The lad flushed. "That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner's son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away."
"Aye." Tyrion moved his elephants. "And when the pisswater prince was safely dead, the eunuch smuggled you across the narrow sea to his fat friend the cheesemonger, who hid you on a poleboat and found an exile lord willing to call himself your father. It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne … assuming that our fair Daenerys takes you for her consort."

And I think the underlined section is a gapping hole in the story.

We are to believe that the pisswater boy was sold by a drunk father (and the mother being dead is even part of the story). 

I find it hard to believe that Elia gave up her son for an imposter and died with it in the nursery while her daughter was on the floor above hiding alone under a bed. Look how hard it was for Jon to convince Gilley to swap her child, and he was the one in power. Not proof, but highly suspect.

Why would Elia even trust Varys with her child? They didn't know the Lannisters would betray Aerys and sack King's Landing in advance, Varys was there advising Aerys not to open the gates, but I'm to believe he strolled down to the Pisswater Bend for a tanner's son mid siege?

You quoted Varys calling him Aegon, but this means little and less. Daemon Blackfyre's own firstborn son and heir was named Aegon. Aegon, Daemon, and Aegon's twin Aemon all died upon the Redgrass Field. Varys is explaining to Kevan that it isn't about being born with a right to the throne but growing up knowing it's a duty. Nothing about this indicates to me that Aegon is legitimate, or that Varys thinks that is even important.

We again see below from the way Tyrion talks/thinks, that while he may believe Young Griff has Targaryen blood, I think he clearly doubts he is Aegon.

"Perhaps I overstated. She may take pity on you when you come begging for her hand." The dwarf shrugged. "Do you want to wager your throne upon a woman's whim? Go to Westeros, though … ah, then you are a rebel, not a beggar. Bold, reckless, a true scion of House Targaryen, walking in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror. A dragon.
"I told you, I know our little queen. Let her hear that her brother Rhaegar's murdered son is still alive, that this brave boy has raised the dragon standard of her forebears in Westeros once more, that he is fighting a desperate war to avenge his father and reclaim the Iron Throne for House Targaryen, hard-pressed on every side … and she will fly to your side as fast as wind and water can carry her. You are the last of her line, and this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer. The girl who drowned the slaver cities in blood rather than leave strangers to their chains can scarcely abandon her own brother's son in his hour of peril. And when she reaches Westeros, and meets you for the first time, you will meet as equals, man and woman, not queen and supplicant. How can she help but love you then, I ask you?" Smiling, he seized his dragon, flew it across the board. "I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four."
The prince stared at the playing board. "My dragon—"
"—is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle."
"But you said—"
"I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close."
Young Griff jerked to his feet and kicked over the board. Cyvasse pieces flew in all directions, bouncing and rolling across the deck of the Shy Maid. "Pick those up," the boy commanded.
He may well be a Targaryen after all. "If it please Your Grace." Tyrion got down on his hands and knees and began to crawl about the deck, gathering up pieces.

I think this whole sequence is great.

And I think it's likely that Young Griff is a true scion of House Targaryen, but it seems clear to me that Tyrion is telling the reader he does not believe Young Griff is Aegon son of Rhaegar.

I would also suggest that this scene is likely prophetic, and would ask how meeting as man and woman would be equals, or how one claimant with a dragon meeting another claimant without a dragon is equal, but I think it's pretty clear from the subtext that Tyrion is leading Young Griff astray here and it doesn't take a lot of foresight to see Young Griff's death in the not to distant future.

For fun, I would point out the fun theme of royal dressup that runs through Dance, Prince Q being the Frog makes me smile, and then there is this:

The floppy ears she chose today were made of sheer white linen, with a fringe of golden tassels. With Jhiqui's help, she wound the tokar about herself correctly on her third attempt. Irri fetched her crown, wrought in the shape of the three-headed dragon of her House. Its coils were gold, its wings silver, its three heads ivory, onyx, and jade. Dany's neck and shoulders would be stiff and sore from the weight of it before the day was done. A crown should not sit easy on the head. One of her royal forebears had said that, once. Some Aegon, but which one? Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. There would have been a sixth, but the Usurper's dogs had murdered her brother's son when he was still a babe at the breast. If he had lived, I might have married him. Aegon would have been closer to my age than Viserys. Dany had only been conceived when Aegon and his sister were murdered. Their father, her brother Rhaegar, perished even earlier, slain by the Usurper on the Trident. Her brother Viserys had died screaming in Vaes Dothrak with a crown of molten gold upon his head. They will kill me too if I allow it. The knives that slew my Stalwart Shield were meant for me.

We could go on at length analyzing Dany's floppy ears, but I want to contrast it to a different tale:

Queen Selyse had feasted Salla and his captains, the night before the fleet had set sail. Cotter Pyke had joined them, and four other high officers of the Night's Watch. Princess Shireen had been allowed to attend as well. As the salmon was being served, Ser Axell Florent had entertained the table with the tale of a Targaryen princeling who kept an ape as a pet. This prince liked to dress the creature in his dead son's clothes and pretend he was a child, Ser Axell claimed, and from time to time he would propose marriages for him. The lords so honored always declined politely, but of course they did decline. "Even dressed in silk and velvet, an ape remains an ape," Ser Axell said. "A wiser prince would have known that you cannot send an ape to do a man's work." The queen's men laughed, and several grinned at Davos. I am no ape, he'd thought. I am as much a lord as you, and a better man. But the memory still stung.

I'm not sure I have a brilliant conclusion here except to say that if royalty is playing dress up, we can expect someone to dress up as royalty, and in this case Young Griff is the prime suspect.

If we are going to try and figure out what is going on with these Essos plots, I think it all comes back to the cheesmonger.

"Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold.

But I think the connection between him and "false gold", or lies, is a nice thematic one, especially as we see it presented next to the "mummer's dragon", Illyrio and Varys being the mummers!

"There was a fat one with rings and a forked yellow beard, and another in mail and a steel cap, and the fat one said they had to delay but the other one told him he couldn't keep juggling and the wolf and the lion were going to eat each other and it was a mummer's farce."

You mentioned the vision but never the connection to Illyrio and Varys, which I think is worth pointing out (Varys also tells his childhood tale of time spent with mummers).

"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."

Tyrion finds himself drunk in Illyrio's Mance and get's dressed in old clothes:

"You mentioned a bath? We must not keep the great cheesemonger waiting."
As he bathed, the girl washed his feet, scrubbed his back, and brushed his hair. Afterward she rubbed sweet-smelling ointment into his calves to ease the aches, and dressed him once again in boy's clothing, a musty pair of burgundy breeches and a blue velvet doublet lined with cloth-of-gold. "Will my lord want me after he has eaten?" she asked as she was lacing up his boots.

I would point out that these are the colors of House Redwyn, of the Arbor.

With the false gold of Illyrio, and the connection to the Arbor in mind, I would come back to Young Griff and the pisswater prince who was traded for "Arbor Gold". Because there seems a strong connection between Arbor Gold and lies.

"We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he'll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you."
...
"You see the wonders that can be worked with lies and Arbor gold?"

The theme of Arbor Gold being connected to lies and deception is repeated.

"Do not discount this man Luceon," Qyburn said. "Last night he feted thirty of the Most Devout on suckling pig and Arbor gold, and by day he hands out hardbread to the poor to prove his piety."

Good enough for The Princess and the Queen:

The next morning, Ser Hobert Hightower called upon him, to thrash out the details of their assault upon King’s Landing. He brought with him two casks of wine as a gift, one of Dornish red and one of Arbor gold. Though Ulf the Sot had never tasted a wine he did not like, he was known to be partial to the sweeter vintages. No doubt Ser Hobert hoped to sip the sour red whilst Lord Ulf quaffed down the Arbor gold. Yet something about Hightower’s manner—he was sweating and stammering and too hearty by half, the squire who served them testified later—pricked White’s suspicions. Wary, he commanded that the Dornish red be set aside for later, and insisted Ser Hobert share the Arbor gold with him.
History has little good to say about Ser Hobert Hightower, but no man can question the manner of his death. Rather than betray his fellow Caltrops, he let the squire fill his cup, drank deep, and asked for more.

And, it goes nicely with Frey Pie:

Ramsay hacked off slices with his falchion and Wyman Manderly himself served, presenting the first steaming portions to Roose Bolton and his fat Frey wife, the next to Ser Hosteen and Ser Aenys, the sons of Walder Frey. "The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords," the fat lord declared. "Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall."

And maybe my favorite:

"Compliments of our captain. Closer to piss than Arbor gold, if truth be told, but even piss tastes better than the black tar rum the sailors drink.

I could continue to ramble about this almost forever, go on about a cup of ice and a cup of fire, the bitter truth or sweet lies. About how I suspect Illyrio is the heir to Bittersteel, his Serra to be Serra Saan, the connection between mummers and the Faceless Men, or about lemon trees and how Dany herself is not the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, but enough for one post!

"You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

 I always enjoy your posts whether I agree with them or not! ... and how the hell do you remember all those details?!

 

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Wolfcrow said:

Tyrion inspected her while naked and talked/thought even about her stretch marks, if she had hunting purple eyes, I think someone would have noticed.

Inspected her?
You mean ogled her. He certainly wasn't paying attention to her eyes. What did he say about her face again? Oh, nothing. Flowing hair, breasts, belly, legs, skin... No eyes, nose, mouth, chin, cheekbones, anything.

In a wider point, purple eyes often don't look very purple without makeup or accessories to 'bring out' the colour. This is easily seen both in our world, where the most famously purple eyed woman ever, Elizabeth Taylor, often appeared to have grey or blue eyes when not wearing purple makeup or accessories that enhanced he purple colour, and in Westeros where Young Griff's purple eyes are disguised as blue by dying his hair blue.

What a beautiful courtier in her late teens, from the highest strands of society, is described as at the biggest party of her life 20+ years ago, bears only some small resemblance to what that same woman might be described as in her late thirties or early forties when trying not to be noticeable.

58 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That's precisely my point. I think it was more of a show and tell than trying to convince Jon Conn with words.

What can be shown? "Here is a baby (looks like Aegon). It is Aegon, I rescued him, we'll raise him to be a great king and put him on the throne when he's ready."
20odd year old JonCon, warrior, Lord, Hand of the King, is unlikely to truly be able to tell Aegon from another baby specifically chosen for its similar looks. It may well have been months, or years, since he'd seen the babe as well.

Absent JonCon convincing himself, I don't think any 'show' or any 'tell' from Varys would work.
Ashara OTOH is noble, close (possibly very close) to the child's mother and from an impeccably honourable and loyal family. If she claimed to have brought the child over from Westeros to Essos shortly after the rebellion, I think he'd be much much more inclined to accept that anything from Varys (and even more influenced by, or less guarded against, his own needs as well).

58 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And you and I will have to keep disagreeing on who Septa Lemore is. But it's good to see you around

Thanks. I drop in occasionally, more to check up on certain old friends, but it rarely seems worth posting.
Disagreement is fine. The case is not open and shut, we can agree and disagree on where judgement lies. I do hate incompetent arguments (from others in this case) though. 

[Wolfcrow]

3 hours ago, corbon said:

Inspected her?
You mean ogled her. He certainly wasn't paying attention to her eyes. What did he say about her face again? Oh, nothing. Flowing hair, breasts, belly, legs, skin... No eyes, nose, mouth, chin, cheekbones, anything.

In a wider point, purple eyes often don't look very purple without makeup or accessories to 'bring out' the colour. This is easily seen both in our world, where the most famously purple eyed woman ever, Elizabeth Taylor, often appeared to have grey or blue eyes when not wearing purple makeup or accessories that enhanced he purple colour, and in Westeros where Young Griff's purple eyes are disguised as blue by dying his hair blue.

What a beautiful courtier in her late teens, from the highest strands of society, is described as at the biggest party of her life 20+ years ago, bears only some small resemblance to what that same woman might be described as in her late thirties or early forties when trying not to be noticeable.

What can be shown? "Here is a baby (looks like Aegon). It is Aegon, I rescued him, we'll raise him to be a great king and put him on the throne when he's ready."
20odd year old JonCon, warrior, Lord, Hand of the King, is unlikely to truly be able to tell Aegon from another baby specifically chosen for its similar looks. It may well have been months, or years, since he'd seen the babe as well.

Absent JonCon convincing himself, I don't think any 'show' or any 'tell' from Varys would work.
Ashara OTOH is noble, close (possibly very close) to the child's mother and from an impeccably honourable and loyal family. If she claimed to have brought the child over from Westeros to Essos shortly after the rebellion, I think he'd be much much more inclined to accept that anything from Varys (and even more influenced by, or less guarded against, his own needs as well).

Thanks. I drop in occasionally, more to check up on certain old friends, but it rarely seems worth posting.
Disagreement is fine. The case is not open and shut, we can agree and disagree on where judgement lies. I do hate incompetent arguments (from others in this case) though. 

I don't buy it, he didn't just saw her for 3'' and Ashara's eyes it was the thing that every single one mentioned, that and the fact that she was gorgeous. In asoiaf the purple eyes are not like irl, we are talking about purple purple and Ashara's were pretty striking. She doesn't have her hair dyed like the young Griff, so there is no way her eyes not looking purple. Her hair are not that dark either btw, but let's say it's from the age and sun, even though 40 is not that old. I will give the benefit of the doubt about her age too, bc she Looks older than wat Ashara would have look, but again stress etc etc.

GRRM would have writing it, if the Lemore had the eyes, at least mentioned them that are beautiful or unusual, striking, something. It's not written like this to trick the reader, it's not his style and it would be stupid to start doing it now. 

Septa Lemore looks like she is a beautiful woman, but not Ashara level. No hunting purple eyes = No Ashara. 

As I said, that was not just ogling, that was a freaking inspection, the guy was talking about individual stretch marks, if her eyes were at least that beautiful like Ashara's were, let alone that shade of purple, bc in this world are not Liz Taylor purple, they are PURPLE different shades, but purple we would have known. 

[corbon]

 

12 minutes ago, Wolfcrow said:

and Ashara's eyes it was the thing that every single one mentioned, that and the fact that she was gorgeous.

Common mistake, but no, actually.
She gets a romanticised gossip description from Cat, who never met her but heard gossip that she was 'tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes'. Fair is attractive, not gorgeous (and we find out in ADwD that its not referring to hair colour).
Barristan, who was infatuated, describes her as having long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and haunting purple eyes. And in his eyes Elia compares to her as a kitchen drab, but then Elia was sickly (though not unattractive), married, socially too high for him, and not Barristan's crush. Barristan's opinion has some weight as an eye witness, but its also coloured by time and feelings.

12 minutes ago, Wolfcrow said:

In asoiaf the purple eyes are not like irl,

Actually, they are. More common perhaps, amongst a specific racial group and bloodline, but as we see with Aegon, and with Gerold Dayne, not to mention John the Fiddler, GRRM's purple eyes also often seem to be other colours and its often only close study, or known associations that clarify them as some shade of purple.
We also see Egg able to stay largely anonymous despite his distinctively purple eyes, because people aren't expecting a hedge knight's squire to be a Targaryen and don't pay close attention. 

Quote

Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple.

Quote

Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, a strong jaw. He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black. He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

Quote

"There you are, Gormy," called the rider on the black, a young man lean and lithe, with a comely, clean-shaven face and fine features. Black hair fell shining to his collar. His doublet was made of dark blue silk edged in gold satin. Across his chest an engrailed cross had been embroidered in gold thread, with a golden fiddle in the first and third quarters, a golden sword in the second and the fourth. His eyes caught the deep blue of his doublet and sparkled with amusement.

...

"Your dreams don't lie," said Dunk, "but you do. John is not your true name, is it?"

"No." The Fiddler's eyes sparkled with mischief.

He has Egg's eyes.

Its not obvious, because everyone in world 'knows' Valyrians have purple eyes so see what they expect very often, but its clear that GRRM's purple eyes often work much like real world purple eyes in being distinctive at times, and indistinct at others. 

12 minutes ago, Wolfcrow said:

we are talking about purple purple and Ashara's were pretty striking.

Yes, as a courtier at court in her late teens, she had striking eyes.
As a drab older religieuse tutor trying not to be recognised, not necessarily so.

No matter how much one chooses to deny realty, the facts are there through the books. 

12 minutes ago, Wolfcrow said:

Her hair are not that dark either btw, but let's say it's from the age and sun, even though 40 is not that old.

Ashara had long dark hair 'tumbling about her shoulders' - per Barristan's memories. 'Dark' in such a context covers many shades of brown to black.
Lemore has dark brown hair flowing about her shoulders (at least when she first emerges in the morning) - per Tyrion's live observations.

12 minutes ago, Wolfcrow said:

GRRM would have writing it, if the Lemore had the eyes, at least mentioned them that are beautiful or unusual, striking, something. It's not written like this to trick the reader, it's not his style and it would be stupid to start doing it now. 

Would he? You don't think purple eyes would have given his game away entirely? You don't think its odd that she is one of very few significant characters (and with an explicit mystery around her identity) that we don't get her eye colour?

12 minutes ago, Wolfcrow said:

Septa Lemore looks like she is a beautiful woman, but not Ashara level. No hunting purple eyes = No Ashara. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Ashara wasn't a very attractive woman - look at the calibre of men she pulled when dancing! But her descriptions are romanticised, rather than realistic. Its a mistake to over emphasise that it.

And Septa Lemore certainly seems to have that same sort of 'pull' toward men.

And 38-42ish not trying, is not the same as 17-18ish trying very hard.

12 minutes ago, Wolfcrow said:

As I said, that was not just ogling, that was a freaking inspection, the guy was talking about individual stretch marks,

From the shoulders down, yes. We have no idea whether Lemore has a crooked nose, mismatched eyes, scarred face etc. I mean, its very unlikely she has any obvious distinctively unattractive features, but literally the only information we have on her above the shoulders is hair colour. Does she have a long aquiline nose? Or a short pert one? Does she have strong distinctive brows or thin sparse ones? Does she have full shapely lips or mobile, expressive lips. Dark eyes, or light? High cheekbones or normal? We don;t know. Tyrion's "inspection" didn;t give us any information about her looks - it was all about his feelings, not her.

The truth is that we have no description of her personal features except she's generally hot naked and has stretch marks (and has dark brown hair, but thats from a different passage). Its an 'inspection' specifically designed to not give us much in the way of identifying information!
I wonder why that is?

12 minutes ago, Wolfcrow said:

if her eyes were at least that beautiful like Ashara's were, let alone that shade of purple, bc in this world are not Liz Taylor purple, they are PURPLE different shades, but purple we would have known. 

You can say it as often as you like, but the data says otherwise.
Its no big deal. We'll find out eventually (I can't imagine GRRM not clarifying a mystery he makes explicit and that is important to the storyline - assuming he finishes that is). But so far your arguments simply don't fit the data. The only reason I explain this is so that readers here are not fooled by misinformation and so feel duped later.

[Ran]

Jon Connington thinks of her as Lady Lemore, which gives away that she is a noblewoman... but if he's giving away that in his thoughts, surely  he'd be calling her Lady Ashara? Since he knew Ashara Dayne, as well, we can't say that he doesn't know who she is if she is in fact Ashara.

Lemore is a noblewoman, but she's not Ashara Dayne.

Quaithe is Ashara Dayne, OTOH.

It is known.

 

[Wolfcrow]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

 

Common mistake, but no, actually.
She gets a romanticised gossip description from Cat, who never met her but heard gossip that she was 'tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes'. Fair is attractive, not gorgeous (and we find out in ADwD that its not referring to hair colour).
Barristan, who was infatuated, describes her as having long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and haunting purple eyes. And in his eyes Elia compares to her as a kitchen drab, but then Elia was sickly (though not unattractive), married, socially too high for him, and not Barristan's crush. Barristan's opinion has some weight as an eye witness, but its also coloured by time and feelings.

Actually, they are. More common perhaps, amongst a specific racial group and bloodline, but as we see with Aegon, and with Gerold Dayne, not to mention John the Fiddler, GRRM's purple eyes also often seem to be other colours and its often only close study, or known associations that clarify them as some shade of purple.
We also see Egg able to stay largely anonymous despite his distinctively purple eyes, because people aren't expecting a hedge knight's squire to be a Targaryen and don't pay close attention. 

Its not obvious, because everyone in world 'knows' Valyrians have purple eyes so see what they expect very often, but its clear that GRRM's purple eyes often work much like real world purple eyes in being distinctive at times, and indistinct at others. 

Yes, as a courtier at court in her late teens, she had striking eyes.
As a drab older religieuse tutor trying not to be recognised, not necessarily so.

No matter how much one chooses to deny realty, the facts are there through the books. 

Ashara had long dark hair 'tumbling about her shoulders' - per Barristan's memories. 'Dark' in such a context covers many shades of brown to black.
Lemore has dark brown hair flowing about her shoulders (at least when she first emerges in the morning) - per Tyrion's live observations.

Would he? You don't think purple eyes would have given his game away entirely? You don't think its odd that she is one of very few significant characters (and with an explicit mystery around her identity) that we don't get her eye colour?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Ashara wasn't a very attractive woman - look at the calibre of men she pulled when dancing! But her descriptions are romanticised, rather than realistic. Its a mistake to over emphasise that it.

And Septa Lemore certainly seems to have that same sort of 'pull' toward men.

And 38-42ish not trying, is not the same as 17-18ish trying very hard.

From the shoulders down, yes. We have no idea whether Lemore has a crooked nose, mismatched eyes, scarred face etc. I mean, its very unlikely she has any obvious distinctively unattractive features, but literally the only information we have on her above the shoulders is hair colour. Does she have a long aquiline nose? Or a short pert one? Does she have strong distinctive brows or thin sparse ones? Does she have full shapely lips or mobile, expressive lips. Dark eyes, or light? High cheekbones or normal? We don;t know. Tyrion's "inspection" didn;t give us any information about her looks - it was all about his feelings, not her.

The truth is that we have no description of her personal features except she's generally hot naked and has stretch marks (and has dark brown hair, but thats from a different passage). Its an 'inspection' specifically designed to not give us much in the way of identifying information!
I wonder why that is?

You can say it as often as you like, but the data says otherwise.
Its no big deal. We'll find out eventually (I can't imagine GRRM not clarifying a mystery he makes explicit and that is important to the storyline - assuming he finishes that is). But so far your arguments simply don't fit the data. The only reason I explain this is so that readers here are not fooled by misinformation and so feel duped later.

The purple eyes are not like irl, come on. They are pretty distinct purple. Even when they change shade it's not like the rl ones. They are purple and they look darker or bluer, but again pretty remarkable since it's very uncommon. If she has the eyes we would know, even without the colours we would have a description even to call them pretty or something. From how Lemore is described, she is a pretty woman, but with no crazy unique or remarkable characteristics. Tyrion the moment he sees something out of the ordinary it is pointed out, not only on Lemore in general, bc he himself doesn't have the most normal physique. Lemore is a beautiful woman, but not with something crazy district. 

And no, we have a description from Meeras story too and she is described beautiful and her eyes again, are purple. We would have a hint or something.

Plus, Jon doesn't have a reason to not call her Ashara in his POVs he knew her. She is noble woman, but for sure not Ashara.

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Jon Connington thinks of her as Lady Lemore, which gives away that she is a noblewoman... but if he's giving away that in his thoughts, surely  he'd be calling her Lady Ashara? Since he knew Ashara Dayne, as well, we can't say that he doesn't know who she is if she is in fact Ashara.

Lemore is a noblewoman, but she's not Ashara Dayne.

Quaithe is Ashara Dayne, OTOH.

It is known.

 

Where in the seven hells is Haldon?" Griff complained to Lady Lemore. 

he thinks of himself as Griff when he thinks of her as Lemore . I suppose Griff is a JonCon imposter in disguise! 

 

[Ran]

18 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Where in the seven hells is Haldon?" Griff complained to Lady Lemore. 

he thinks of himself as Griff when he thinks of her as Lemore . I suppose Griff is a JonCon imposter in disguise! 

 

Griff is a nickname or alias that he actually uses. He refers to himself as Griff and as Jon Connington in the last chapter.

Lemore is certainly an alias she uses... but as Septa Lemore. The fact that Connington calls her Lady Lemore, both in his thoughts and outside of it, shows he's already thinking of her outside of her alias ... yet the name Lemore remains. Which suggests it's actually her name, or a diminutive of it.

 

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Griff is a nickname or alias that he actually uses. He refers to himself as Griff and as Jon Connington in the last chapter.

Lemore is certainly an alias she uses... but as Septa Lemore. The fact that Connington calls her Lady Lemore, both in his thoughts and outside of it, shows he's already thinking of her outside of her alias ... yet the name Lemore remains. Which suggests it's actually her name, or a diminutive of it.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with the conclusion, but this is not a convincing case, especially given that Septa Lemore changes her disguise into Lady Lemore on page... what is the distinction between calling her Lemore and Connington calling himself Griff? 

And why can't she be both a lady be a septa?

Why do we think Connington knows her real identity?

I've always liked the Idea that Lemore is the Mad Maid, Malora Hightower daughter of Leyton Hightower and growing up in Oldtown meant she knows how to be a Septa (the church is based in Oldtown) and things like washing Greyscale in vinegar (the Citadel is in Oldtown).

Also, on the topic of being dressed up like royalty (by Illyrio in these cases), I like this parallel to Dany's first chapter.

When the lad emerged from the cabin with Lemore by his side, Griff looked him over carefully from head to heel. The prince wore sword and dagger, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk. With his hair washed and cut and freshly dyed a deep, dark blue, his eyes looked blue as well. At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colors. That was good. "You look a proper prince," he told the boy

Young Griff looking like a prince but still with a chain about his neck...

They dressed her in the wisps that Magister Illyrio had sent up, and then the gown, a deep plum silk to bring out the violet in her eyes. The girl slid the gilded sandals onto her feet, while the old woman fixed the tiara in her hair, and slid golden bracelets crusted with amethysts around her wrists. Last of all came the collar, a heavy golden torc emblazoned with ancient Valyrian glyphs.
"Now you look all a princess," the girl said breathlessly when they were done. Dany glanced at her image in the silvered looking glass that Illyrio had so thoughtfully provided. A princess, she thought, but she remembered what the girl had said, how Khal Drogo was so rich even his slaves wore golden collars. She felt a sudden chill, and gooseflesh pimpled her bare arms.

12 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 I always enjoy your posts whether I agree with them or not! ... and how the hell do you remember all those details?!

Ah gee, thanks! All the little details I've found, or others have found and shared, become jumbled in my head. But, sometimes I can ask a question, dive down a rabbit hole (making liberal use of asearchoficeandfire), and coherent thoughts tumble out. Other times, not so much... but I still enjoy the pastime.

[Rondo]

Varys doesn't know everything.  Illyrio has him fooled.  Aegon is not real.  George Martin went to too much trouble to tell the story of the Blackfyres for it to be irrelevant.  Aegon, or YG, is another play by the Blackfyres to take the throne.

[Mourning Star]

15 hours ago, corbon said:

I find this an extremely poor argument. 
Elia didn't 'give up' her son, she protected him. If all went well, then its only a temporary swap, if all goes badly she potentially saves her son's life.

That's fair, it's not hard evidence just the impression I get that the story is unreasonable.

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Gilly's situation is utterly different. Not only is the threat not even apparent to her, but its also less certain, and the swap is guaranteed to be long term. Plus its her child that is being put into danger not taken away from danger. It is in fact a reverse situation!

Gilley is also not royalty, and Jon has the power in that situation, unlike with Elia and Varys. My point was simply that asking a mother to give up a newborn child is asking a lot. As is asking a mother to die with a decoy baby while her daughter is nearby.

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Why would she not? He's right there in KL with her, has nothing outside KL, if all goes well its only a temporary situation, and if the worst happens she saves her son's life.

Why would she trust the spy master? Does anyone trust Varys? Even Aerys didn't listen to him in the end.

15 hours ago, corbon said:

No, you are to believe that a smart counselor prepares for many eventualities, and that, like we saw with Myrcella, 'doubles' are sometimes used for royal children.
Varys almost certainly prepared the Pisswater Prince long before any siege, as a convenient double for all sorts of possibilities.
At worst, Varys uses the secret passages to move from Aerys' side, once the order is given to open the gates to the Tywin, to grab the pisswater double and swap with Aegon. Maybe there was also a double for Rhaenys (or maybe she wasn't as important as not-the-heir) but she'd disappeared (to hide in her father's chambers) and Elia didn't have her. We don't know virtually any detail. Varys does appear noticeably not apparent in the throne room accounts of Jaime and Ned though.

This is the part that seems really unreasonable to me.

Varys can't have been prepared, not only did they just recently learn the outcome of the battle on the Trident, and Varys was there to advise against opening the gates to the Lannisters, but then finding a replacement baby on ridiculously short notice during a siege stretches credulity beyond belief for me.

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Its not stretching anything to make entirely plausible and entirely reasonable scenarios that fit all available data and have Varys doing a late switch.  

I disagree. 

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes, Tyrion has doubts. Tyrion is not omniscient and is feeling his way through things with far less data than we have. He also makes mistakes and changes his mind at different times. 

No Tyrion is certainly not omniscient, but the OP claimed no character gave us reason to doubt... I disagree, I think there is clear reason to doubt. Tyrion's theories are not proof positive, just a reason to look closer. But personally, the fact that it's a case of showing us his doubt more than telling us his doubt makes it even more convincing.

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Nice.

There are certainly arguments both ways. 

I guess so, although I don't think this is one of those mysteries that will never be answered like some readers. I think it is more setup, and a foil for the greater babyswap plotline.

[Megorova]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Lemore is a noblewoman, but she's not Ashara Dayne.

Quaithe is Ashara Dayne, OTOH.

It is known.

Lemore is Lady Jeyne Swann.

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. Ashara Dayne is Jyana Reed.

It is known. (Not really ).

14 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Have we seen any other situation where a royal mother has had to make a desperate choice in a sudden crisis and chooses to save the heir? 

Yes - the Blood and Cheese incident, when Queen Helaena Targaryen had chosen for her firstborn son Jaehaerys to be spared and said to the butchers that they can kill her younger son - Maelor. But that means absolutely nothing, it doesn't prove that Elia would have done similar thing - that she would have agreed to switch her son with the Pisswater Prince to save the real Aegon, though would have kept her daughter at the castle where she then was killed alongside with her mother and the fake Prince.

[Daeron the Daring]

8 hours ago, Ran said:

Quaithe is Ashara Dayne, OTOH.

It is known.

Quathie=Ashara Dayne=Jeyne Swann=Shiera Seastar=Elissa Farman=Rhaenys Targaryen.

This is known.

Jokes aside, elaborate.

[Mourning Star]

8 hours ago, Ran said:

Lemore is a noblewoman, but she's not Ashara Dayne.

Quaithe is Ashara Dayne, OTOH.

It is known.

While certainly possible, I do dislike this theory for one major reason.

The single most defining feature of Ashara is her eyes...

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

And the eyes are the one feature we see highlighted about Quaithe:

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask.

Since purple eyes are so notable in Planetos, and Dany makes particular note of her eyes... we should get some indication if they were the special haunting violet eyes of Ashara Dayne. We don't even get the ambiguous dark eyes used to obfuscate purple eyes in other characters/situations.

Watery eyes are a feature themselves we see with Lysa Arryn (Tully), the Freys, and the Weeper. Which I honestly don't know what to make of...

[chrisdaw]

Lemore will be Ashara. Someone having not mentioned her eye colour or someone thinking she's a Lady need no reconciliation. She's there to be the bridge for Barristan turning cloak from Dany to Aegon, making good on all those Barristan POV musings about ill fated sliding door moments and the worst of knights being those who played the game of thrones.

[James Arryn]

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

Yes - the Blood and Cheese incident, when Queen Helaena Targaryen had chosen for her firstborn son Jaehaerys to be spared and said to the butchers that they can kill her younger son - Maelor. But that means absolutely nothing, it doesn't prove that Elia would have done similar thing - that she would have agreed to switch her son with the Pisswater Prince to save the real Aegon, though would have kept her daughter at the castle where she then was killed alongside with her mother and the fake Prince.

Yes, the B&C was my reference, and while it of course does not necessitate that Elia would do the same thing, it fits with George’s pattern of giving roughly equivalent foreshadows. And I think the points about both scenarios are that both were probably made in circumstances where there was very little time to make the decision and both would have been susceptible to the idea that the heir to the throne was the priority, by either side.