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Aegon or fAegon? A closer look at Young Griff


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6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Lemore will be Ashara. Someone having not mentioned her eye colour or someone thinking she's a Lady need no reconciliation. She's there to be the bridge for Barristan turning cloak from Dany to Aegon, making good on all those Barristan POV musings about ill fated sliding door moments and the worst of knights being those who played the game of thrones.

I doubt Barristan will leave Essos, he is gonna be dead most likely before Danny reach Westeros and the others are already in Westeros. 

Ashara is described throughout the series as fair and pretty, Lemore is described handsome. Meaning different physique and features, probably more sharp and "manly", something like that doesn't change with age, it's a bone structure and body type. And the eyes is a huge hole, there isn't a way for Tyrion to not mention them, if they were that beautiful and purple. Martin isn't a writer that is hiding stuff like this, he is hiding them in plain sight. If he comes out and say ooooh I didn't say colour they are purple, but no one from the new people that is mentioning her pointed out, it would be both out of his writing character, but also plainly stupid.

An also, big hole is that if she has purple eyes and no one is mentioning it, which is weird on each own, Tyrion would have been pretty unconvinced of their story. You have a woman in the right age, with purple eyes, that has given birth and a kid that everybody thought dead and the body was presented at court, yes in a terrible state but it was there, with again purple eyes and his hair dyed, he would definitely think that the kid is hers and thus not Aegon. Also if she had this common with Aegon, why not say from the start that it's her son and get it over with, why craft the whole story with Griff? It would be so much easier, this is my mum and this is my dad, end of story. 

There is no way she is Lemore it's full of plot holes. 

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1 minute ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

DOH! I was certain she was Benjen Stark.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but Benjen Stark=Brandon Stark (brother of Ned and Benjen)=Coldhands=Mance Rayder=Howland Reed=Rhaegar Targaryen... 

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4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Well, I hate to break it to you, but Benjen Stark=Brandon Stark (brother of Ned and Benjen)=Coldhands=Mance Rayder=Howland Reed=Rhaegar Targaryen... 

Benjen Stark is Daario, it is known.

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4 minutes ago, Wolfcrow said:

Benjen Stark is Daario, it is known.

This is known. And thus:

Benjen Stark=Brandon Stark (brother of Ned and Benjen)=Coldhands=Mance Rayder=Howland Reed=Rhaegar Targaryen=Daario Naharis=Euron Greyjoy.

As such, Euron is the good guy of the story, the older brother of Daenerys, who only wants to look out for his sister, and of course, marry her, as it is customary. Not that he didn't have sex with Daenerys already: He slept with her as Daario, slept in her dream with her as Euron, and of course, slept with her mother as well (who was his mother as well), and thus he's her father-brother-husband.

All this, unless of course Benjen is dead: then the whole thing falls apart. But we know that's not the case.

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I think one of the purposes of D&E is to flesh out and give context to the ASOIAF story. Because of D&E, we know that Three-Eyed Crow is Bloodraven, when without it he would just have been some random wizard. I think there was always supposed to be a Targaryen pretender, but George used D&E to give him a name and a backstory.

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On 6/29/2022 at 6:35 PM, Ran said:

Jon Connington thinks of her as Lady Lemore, which gives away that she is a noblewoman... but if he's giving away that in his thoughts, surely  he'd be calling her Lady Ashara?

No.
Her identity is not yet ready to be revealed. Not even by JonCon, let alone GRRM. There is no reason or requirement that he think of her or call her Lady Ashara or Lady Dayne.

On 6/29/2022 at 8:44 PM, Wolfcrow said:

The purple eyes are not like irl, come on.

Sorry, facts are facts, and saying 'come on' doesn't change them

On 6/29/2022 at 8:44 PM, Wolfcrow said:

And no, we have a description from Meeras story too and she is described beautiful and her eyes again, are purple.

The misinformation gets stronger as desperation sets in. There is no description at all beyond 'maid' and 'laughing purple eyes. Saying she is described is beautiful in that story is an outright lie.

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

Never mind that the entire story is distinctly romanticised and simplified (individuals are reduced to a single symbollic descriptor) rather than being specific in any descriptive way.

 

On 6/29/2022 at 8:44 PM, Wolfcrow said:

Plus, Jon doesn't have a reason to not call her Ashara in his POVs he knew her. She is noble woman, but for sure not Ashara.

Sure he does.
 

Quote

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

Her identity must be hidden. 
 

On 6/29/2022 at 11:17 PM, Ran said:

Lemore is certainly an alias she uses... but as Septa Lemore. The fact that Connington calls her Lady Lemore, both in his thoughts and outside of it, shows he's already thinking of her outside of her alias ... yet the name Lemore remains. Which suggests it's actually her name, or a diminutive of it.

No, t does not suggest any such thing. Her identity has not yet been, is not yet ready to be, revealed. He is not thinking of her 'outside her alias', he is merely revealing (or adding) status to her alias.

On 6/30/2022 at 1:53 AM, Mourning Star said:

Why do we think Connington knows her real identity?

First, because of the way she can argue with him about the big picture with no comeback.
Second, because he gives her status as a Lady even in his own mind (once that is safer to do), which indicates he knows enough of her to believe she truly has that status.

On 6/30/2022 at 2:01 AM, Mourning Star said:

Gilley is also not royalty, and Jon has the power in that situation, unlike with Elia and Varys. My point was simply that asking a mother to give up a newborn child is asking a lot. As is asking a mother to die with a decoy baby while her daughter is nearby.

I think its a fatally flawed and misleading point, and that needed pointing out.
Gilly is giving up her child - and fair enough, thats a hard thing to put your child at risk to save another, even if the other is of higher status.
But Elia isn't 'giving up her child'. She's saving her child - the gates have been opened, she's likely to have a more sane understanding of the consequences of that than the Mad King did. She, and both her children are already at great risk, if not dead already. 
As to the daughter nearby, thats also not a reasonable factor. Its as likely as not (or more, IMO) that Rhaenys had run away in fear (found hiding beneath her father's bed (in the next floor up IIRC)) and Elia could't control what happened to her. Varys may even have had a double for Rhaenys too (less likely IMO, for several reasons, but still possible).

On 6/30/2022 at 2:01 AM, Mourning Star said:

Why would she trust the spy master? Does anyone trust Varys?

Because the enemy are not at the gates, they are already within them.

On 6/30/2022 at 2:01 AM, Mourning Star said:

Varys can't have been prepared, not only did they just recently learn the outcome of the battle on the Trident, and Varys was there to advise against opening the gates to the Lannisters, but then finding a replacement baby on ridiculously short notice during a siege stretches credulity beyond belief for me.

 

No. Pay attention. Doubles for royal children were relatively common. Such a double, when needed, needs to have been prepared months or years in advance. They need to not just look similar but also be able to pull off basic courtesies and interactions at the very least. Given the rarity in Westero of matching Aegon's hair colour, its not at all unreasonable that Varys found the Pisswater prince months before the siege and would have had the child raised and trained for a decade or more in case there was need for any reason. The Pisswater Prince was almost certainly not acquired specifically for a baby swap during the Sack, but as a general tool to have around for any requirement necessary in the next decade or two.

23 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Lemore will be Ashara. Someone having not mentioned her eye colour or someone thinking she's a Lady need no reconciliation. She's there to be the bridge for Barristan turning cloak from Dany to Aegon, making good on all those Barristan POV musings about ill fated sliding door moments and the worst of knights being those who played the game of thrones.

This is additional met-story reasoning, agreed. I don't know exactly how (or if) it will play out but Lemore=Ashara certainly would enable GRRM to have a straight 'betrayal for love' between Barristan and Dany. There are arguments that can be made, but I'm not certain we've seen that particular betrayal yet. Barristan switching to Aegon for the love of Ashara would be undeniably a betrayal for love.

 

16 hours ago, Wolfcrow said:

Ashara is described throughout the series as fair and pretty, Lemore is described handsome. Meaning different physique and features, probably more sharp and "manly", something like that doesn't change with age, it's a bone structure and body type.

Not true at all. The youthful generations may use the language that way, but thats not how it has been used for... maybe centuries? GRRM knows his language. And ASoIaF is written deliberately using older styles and usages to fit with its cultural times. 
"Handsome" is exactly how attractive 'older' women have long been described. They no longer have youthful 'prettiness', they have lost the full bloom of outright beauty (modern women can retain that much longer due to cosmetics, surgery and much healthier but also much less physically stressful lifestyles), but they are still clearly very attractive.

 

 

Anyhoo...
As usual, we seem to have gotten well off topic. Ashara=Lemore always seems to do this, IMO because quite a lot of readers have a very large amount of disinformation in their heads and it gives them strong convictions which are easier to argue than checking facts and rethinking ideas.

To try to being us back to a semblance of topic...
Lemore's actual identity, though interesting of itself and relevant to the truth of fAegon's identity, is not actually critical. fAegon can be real with our without Lemore as Ashara, and he can be false with or without Lemore as Ashara. All 4 options are plausibly in play, though different readers will assess the data in different ways to come to different conclusions.

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3 hours ago, corbon said:

No. Pay attention. Doubles for royal children were relatively common. Such a double, when needed, needs to have been prepared months or years in advance. They need to not just look similar but also be able to pull off basic courtesies and interactions at the very least. Given the rarity in Westero of matching Aegon's hair colour, its not at all unreasonable that Varys found the Pisswater prince months before the siege and would have had the child raised and trained for a decade or more in case there was need for any reason. The Pisswater Prince was almost certainly not acquired specifically for a baby swap during the Sack, but as a general tool to have around for any requirement necessary in the next decade or two.

I don't believe this is at all reasonable is the difference in opinion I suppose. It was a wildly surprising and heanous crime killing Elia and her children, not to be expected, and there are no examples I know of of baby doubles lol.

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20 hours ago, Wolfcrow said:

I doubt Barristan will leave Essos, he is gonna be dead most likely before Danny reach Westeros and the others are already in Westeros.

And you'll be wrong, Barristan's POV is seeding all over.

  • Would the realm have been better off if he had not been such a good loyal servant to a bad mad king? A thought question until Dany turns and he's in the same position again, does he stay loyal again and watch her burn the realm? Or does he turn cloak?
  • Had he been less true to his oaths and more to his heart and told Ashara his feelings might she had not turned to the young wolf and never been lost to the realm? When fate brings her back will he be this time bold enough to tell her and save her from being lost again?

It goes on but I haven't read the chapters in like 5 years. The reason the show killed Barristan before Dany reached Westeros is because all his thematic threads converge in the Dany/Aegon conflict, and the show didn't do Aegon so they had no use or need of him.

The main question I have is if GRRM could plausibly have Lemore's identity remain hidden on Westeros long enough for Barristan to meet her and be the first to recognise her through her ageing for a big emotional reveal, as that'd have the most narrative impact. And then does he want to do another Barristan POV, and if not does it have the same impact outside of POV.

There's not a single hole with Lemore being Ashara. A character not noticing another's eye colour doesn't need to be accounted for.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, corbon said:

Sorry, facts are facts, and saying 'come on' doesn't change them

I will, not continue this, bc you think we don't have not even one correct information about her, when the people we argue against this theory use the text, unlike you that trying to make everything in the story something else, to fit the theory. It's a theory, so everyone can believe whatever they want I guess. You stand by it, I don't it's ok. 

I will press on the eye colour though. In asoiaf the eyes are purple this is a fact, you are trying to make it something else, but it is a fact they are lilac, violet, lavender and other purple shades. So, when people are described with purple eyes they are purple. Irl purple eyes are not purple, so I don't know why you are comparing them in the first place. Real life "purple" eyes, are grey 99.99% of the time and bluish grey with a hint of red in the other 0.01%of the timethat makes them appear more purple, bc the red hue of the blood vessels make it looks that way and it's not even that noticable. They aren't purple, so comparing Liz Taylor's eyes with Ashara's or anyone's purple eyes in asoiaf, is not accurate. In this universe purple eyes are most of the time purple and sometimes look more blue or grey or even black, but still it's visible that they are purple, in our world purple eyes are never purple, bc even when people say they are, colour is closer to grey or blue and not purple.

Ashara unlike Aegon doesn't have blue hair and I find unlikely that Tyrion didn't catch up on it, because he is watching her and it's in the daylight. 

If this is the case which I still think it's not, it's gonna be the most dumb thing in the story by far. 

Edited by Wolfcrow
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

There's not a single hole with Lemore being Ashara. A character not noticing another's eye colour doesn't need to be accounted for.

Do we have many characters with purple eyes that people haven't talk about them? No we don't, that is why I find it impossible for a person that was talking about individual stretch marks to not address Valyrian features. Every single character with purple eyes had a description of shade not just colour, they are analyzed with details, but suddenly Tyrion met a woman with purple eyes and a kid with purple eyes, that is supposedly dead and he didn't have the tiniest thought about it. Pretty stupid writing if this is the case. 

And as I said he would be pretty unconvinced of their story, if Lemore and Aegon had a similarly like that. 

As for Barristan in the show was killed before it was his time, yes, but Danny is not even close to be in westeros yet and there is a huge chance Selmy is gonna die in the meantime. Plus, he is having thoughts about loyalty in general not only about Ashara. He was thinking about betraying all the oaths they are taking not only the one about having relationships. Yes, he is thinking Ashara often, bc Danny's eye colour reminds him of her, he himself had said this, which makes my previous point even more valid, Ashara's eyes were really purple and distinct and every story about her is mentioning them, there is no way for people to not comment on lemore's eyes if she is Ashara. 

Edited by Wolfcrow
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5 hours ago, Wolfcrow said:

Do we have many characters with purple eyes that people haven't talk about them?

It takes half of The Hedge Knight for Dunk to realize Aegon has purple eyes, despite them hanging out like all day. Later it takes half of The Mystery Knight for Dunk to realize The Fiddlers eyes looks like Aegons, despite spending over a year with a purple eyed squire.

5 hours ago, Wolfcrow said:

I find it impossible for a person that was talking about individual stretch marks to not address Valyrian features.

Tyrion is checking her out constantly, memorizing that body so he can jerk off to her later. It's kinda funny that Tyrion doesn't look at Asharas eyes, little horn dog that he is.

Quote

Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.

 

Besides, did Tyrion ever notice Ducks eyes?

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It takes half of The Hedge Knight for Dunk to realize Aegon has purple eyes, despite them hanging out like all day. Later it takes half of The Mystery Knight for Dunk to realize The Fiddlers eyes looks like Aegons, despite spending over a year with a purple eyed squire.

Dunk the Lunk, thick as a castle wall.

There seems a theme of being able to hide ones eye color by dying ones hair, it may stretch credulity but it's part of the story. Other devices are used as well to potentially obscure eye color from the reader, cataracts of old age, small "dark" eyes, etc. I don't think we can extend that to every single character's eye color being indistinguishable.

49 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Besides, did Tyrion ever notice Ducks eyes?

I don't think it's commented on and we assume they are not purple, but Tyrion does look at Lemore's eyes, first thing.

An older couple with a Rhoynish cast to their features stood close beside the tiller, whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes.

Could it just be an intentional omission by the author? It could be, but on a boat of mystery persons where having remarkable purple eyes is absolutely noteworthy it's a big stretch in my mind when we aren't even given an implausible excuse for it.

Edited by Mourning Star
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The reason the show killed Barristan before Dany reached Westeros is because all his thematic threads converge in the Dany/Aegon conflict, and the show didn't do Aegon so they had no use or need of him.

The reason the show killed Barristan is because, unlike in the books, there was no Blackfyres in there, not only no fAegon. And in the books both of them are Blackfyres (in my opinion), furthermore Barristan is fAegon's father (again - only in my opinion (for now, until GRRM will reveal it as the truth)).

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The main question I have is if GRRM could plausibly have Lemore's identity remain hidden on Westeros long enough for Barristan to meet her and be the first to recognise her

He may not recognize her. First of all - because she is not Ashara. In my opinion, and I am absolutely sure that I am right, Lemore is Jeyne Swann. The other readers may deny it however they want, but when this will be revealed by GRRM, they won't be able to continue with that denial. Lemore=Ashara is a popular theory, which doesn't mean that the people who think so are right. In my opinion, Lemore is Jeyne, and this means that maybe Barristan met her only once - in early 281, a bit more than 19 years ago. Or maybe he had met her before, not only that one time, because he used to know the other Swanns. He even served as a squire to Ser Manfred Swann, and maybe that Manfred was either Jeyne's father or her grandfather. She could have been born many years after Barristan left Stormlands (after the Burning of Summerhall) and relocated to King's Landing. So maybe he used to know her ancestors, but haven't met her prior to their single encounter at the Kingswood in early 281, when they conceived fAegon.

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

There's not a single hole with Lemore being Ashara.

Except .... she's Jeyne.

^_^

6 hours ago, Wolfcrow said:

As for Barristan in the show was killed before it was his time, yes, but Danny is not even close to be in westeros yet and there is a huge chance Selmy is gonna die in the meantime.

The way he will die is already known, and it won't happen at Essos - he will meet both Lemore and fAegon, at the 7K, and he will know that fAegon is his son, and then the three of them will die together - Florian the Fool, his Lady Jonquil, and their son - the Mummer's Dragon: "One man-at-arms was dangling the puppets of Florian and Jonquil from his hands as another set them afire with a torch. Three more men were opening chests, spilling more puppets on the ground and stamping on them. The dragon puppet was scattered all about them, a broken wing here, its head there, its tail in three pieces." (The Hedge Knight). <- fAegon will be killed/ripped/cut apart by Robert Strong (the Mountain)), the guy who also killed the real Aegon (son of Rhaegar Targaryen). -> " "Sweet lady," said Florian, "all men are fools, and all men are knights, where women are concerned." It was a good show, sad and sweet both, with a sprightly swordfight at the end, and a nicely painted giant." <- fAegon will be killed probably in a trial-by-combat, and then Barristan and Lemore (fAegon's parents) will be also killed in the aftermath of that duel, and they both will burn, same as those puppets of Florian and Jonquil in The Hedge Knight novel, that GRRM had used to give a foreshadowing to the readers about how Barristan's story will end -> "It was a good show, sad and sweet both, with a sprightly swordfight at the end".

From Google-Translate: sprightly

she was quite sprightly for her age

(especially of an old person) lively; full of energy.

Barristan at the time of that fight will be ~63-65 years old. Thus - "sprightly swordfight at the end".

Edited by Megorova
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12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

We are. He's staring at her chest 

Cute, but the quote above mentioning Tyrion looking at her eyes has nothing to do with her chest. 

While it's fun to knock Tyrion's degenerate thoughts, the idea that he never noticed her eye color was purple when her identity is a mystery and eye color is directly relevant, while living on a boat with her, isn't reasonable.

Might it be an intentional omission by the author, it's not impossible, but I see no reason to believe this is the case.

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6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Cute, but the quote above mentioning Tyrion looking at her eyes has nothing to do with her chest. 

Its actually him looking at her hair

8 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

While it's fun to knock Tyrion's degenerate thoughts, the idea that he never noticed her eye color was purple when her identity is a mystery and eye color is directly relevant, while living on a boat with her, isn't reasonable.

I'm not knocking anything. Tyiron thinks he doesn't want to know her secrets he just wants to fuck her. There's GRRMs answer for you, a shame you don't find it reasonable.

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8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its actually him looking at her hair

I'm not knocking anything. Tyiron thinks he doesn't want to know her secrets he just wants to fuck her. There's GRRMs answer for you, a shame you don't find it reasonable.

At this point I don't even know what are you talking about

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

 

I don't think it's commented on and we assume they are not purple, but Tyrion does look at Lemore's eyes, first thing.

An older couple with a Rhoynish cast to their features stood close beside the tiller, whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes.

Could it just be an intentional omission by the author? It could be, but on a boat of mystery persons where having remarkable purple eyes is absolutely noteworthy it's a big stretch in my mind when we aren't even given an implausible excuse for it.

She does wear a crystal around her neck, there are other characters that use rubies and moonstones for glamor. Ashara fits for me to be Lemore, because it says Lemore needs to hide her identity in Westeros, and the only character I could think of that is missing and would be part of the Aegon cause would be Ashara. (A character that even a casual reader would know about) I believe George had written himself in a corner and didn’t want to give away the identity yet, we technically don’t know what eye color she has. From my own past experience, some people focus too much on a physical characteristic that is actually author error, rather than paying attention to the overall story to dismiss legitimate theories.

Edited by Crona
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