Warring Across the Stars...With their...Wars....and Stuff

[Ran]

What I've seen of RoP (trailers, Youtube videos) always seemed like they just thought, "More! More! Mooooore!" was the way to go. They are gilding the lily, to my eye, with a lot of their location VFX. It has the sort of the same profligate vibe as Jackson's less disciplined work in The Hobbit.

This show does it right. Practical sets as much as possible. Really high focus on production design. When full VFX scenes are shown, which is relatively rare, they are unimpeachable.

 

[Heartofice]

I think the difference between RoP and something like Andor or HotD is that the latter shows ground everything in a sense of reality, whereas RoP is going to a heightened saturated fantasy look. The problem is its very difficult to lose yourself in any scene because you never feel like characters are actually in locations and scenarios, you become very aware of the techniques used to create the scene.

I think attention to detail is also quite key, you will often notice just how much work has gone into small things on Andor or HotD, for instance a piece of furniture in the background that you barely see but must have taken a long time for someone to create. It all adds to that sense of immersion.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

28 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think the difference between RoP and something like Andor or HotD is that the latter shows ground everything in a sense of reality, whereas RoP is going to a heightened saturated fantasy look. The problem is its very difficult to lose yourself in any scene because you never feel like characters are actually in locations and scenarios, you become very aware of the techniques used to create the scene.

I think attention to detail is also quite key, you will often notice just how much work has gone into small things on Andor or HotD, for instance a piece of furniture in the background that you barely see but must have taken a long time for someone to create. It all adds to that sense of immersion.

Indeed.  The best VFX are the VFX that are unnoticed and pull the viewers into the story.

[mormont]

I would say that some of the Andor locations are very clearly contemporary brutalist architecture that looks vaguely science fictiony. It's like watching classic 70s sci fi at times. Not sure if that's the intended aesthetic, but that's what comes over. 

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, mormont said:

I would say that some of the Andor locations are very clearly contemporary brutalist architecture that looks vaguely science fictiony. It's like watching classic 70s sci fi at times. Not sure if that's the intended aesthetic, but that's what comes over. 

I think that's exactly the aesthetic because that's exactly what star wars is at this point. We have flying cars and ftl ships and laser swords interspersed with crt monitors displaying pong like graphics, radio based comms and interfaces with giant switches and buttons.

In this episode we have a factory that is doing work that could have been automated in the 90s trivially. 

It's an interesting vibe and deliberate choice.

[Heartofice]

Andor is clearly a call back to the 70s aesthetic of the original, you can see it  throughout the empire, from the computers they use to their haircuts. Actually it will be interesting to observe where that isn’t so much the case, for instance it’s not quite so true outside empire institutions from my recollection 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Funnily enough Andor has rekindled my love for the SW universe in a way that I thought had been lost and I've been attempting to go back and watch all the animated shows I could never make it through before. The problem with ' Ugly Clone Wars' is that I am aware it gets very good apparently, but it is really pretty bad for at least 2 seasons from my experience and it takes an enormous amount of effort to get through it. If I can just get past that maybe I will watch the rest.

Watch TCW in chronological order rather than season by season - that way you can watch some good stuff before the bad stuff.

But if you keep Ahsoka's journey in mind then her bratty attitude in the beginning is very well contrasted with her later maturity and the darker aspects of the show.

20 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

No commentary on Tales of the Jedi...?

Really enjoyed Dooku's journey there, especially the talks with Qui-Gon Jinn. The one tidbit that sucks is that Sidious doesn't give Dooku the Sith title Darth Tyranus at the end of the final episode of the arc. I'd say the scene of Dooku erasing Kamino from the archive memory as well as his final talk to Qui-Gon and how he clearly genuinely cared for the guy and really looked forward to meeting Obi-Wan are things we should have seen a long time ago.

The biggest problem with the Darth Tyranus character is that Lucas failed to include him as a council member/disgruntled Jedi Master in TPM ... and that he burned the character so early in ROTS. Tyranus and Anakin should have been fighting for the mantle of the Sith apprentice later in the movie, with Palpatine's abduction being a genuine betrayal on Tyranus' part.

It also shows the complacency of the Jedi very well. They are not above nor untouched by the corruption in the Senate. And Mace Windu is really a dick in that second episode. Also great to have seen Raxus again, making it a hub of anti-Republic resentment even at this early point.

The pilot with little Ahsoka was really great, especially the way they had her Force abilities manifest themselves. No throwing around people/things but this. Her final episode after the war was great, too. I really adored how she dealt with Maul in the final TCW arc, and her take on the Inquisitor there was equally great. She really has become one of the greatest SW characters, I'd say. If they have stick around longer, she could be the person Luke was supposed to be, rebuilding the Jedi Order after the travesty that was the ST ... assuming they ever explore that era.

Training with the clones was a nice easter egg, but nothing we really needed.

[Ran]

Yeah, definitely deliberate. I think it looks great, but I get what you mean about getting 70s SF flashbacks!

Coruscant uses both the brutalist Brunswick Centre in London (for Syril's mother's apartment) and modernist McLaren Technology Centre (for Coruscant's spaceport), which I think is a nice touch regarding the various levels of Coruscant society.

[Lord Varys]

Regarding Andor:

I never actually thought anyone would ever mention Belsavis in any SW property. Why should they, really? But nice that it happened, anyway.

I also had the TNX 1138 vibe in the prison planet. Would have preferred it, though, if there hadn't been just humans in the prison.

Glad to see that the ISB plot intersected with our loyalist would-be inspector ... but I don't understand why she didn't take him along for the ride. Could be she comes back to him once they figure out that Cassian Andor was also involved in the heist ... or things go the other way and Syril ends up falling in with the Rebellion. He could somehow end up at Luthen's shop ... and then have to make a choice whether turn his cloak or not.

More tension there could be created by the ISB actually following him there, so he may have to make a decision in the middle of blaster fire.

[Martell Spy]

Quote

I also had the TNX 1138 vibe in the prison planet. Would have preferred it, though, if there hadn't been just humans in the prison.

 

I think that's deliberate. It's a "privilege" to be chosen for this labor, so only humans.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Martell Spy said:

I think that's deliberate. It's a "privilege" to be chosen for this labor, so only humans.

I thought about that but, meh, the Empire isn't humans only, and some non-humans might even be better workers than humans.

At least they could have had some Twi'leks or other humanoid non-humans.

[Corvinus85]

Marva's current situation is very relatable. Made me sad.

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I thought about that but, meh, the Empire isn't humans only, and some non-humans might even be better workers than humans.

At least they could have had some Twi'leks or other humanoid non-humans.

The floor is likely calibrated to humans. Maybe a few other species could respond the same way to the 3 levels of electrocution.

And yeah, the Empire is racist, even the cleanliest forced labor jobs are for humans only. The non- humans would be lucky to work in a steel foundry, at best.

[Lord Varys]

44 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

The floor is likely calibrated to humans. Maybe a few other species could respond the same way to the 3 levels of electrocution.

And yeah, the Empire is racist, even the cleanliest forced labor jobs are for humans only. The non- humans would be lucky to work in a steel foundry, at best.

That could be easily resolved by establishing that this isn't the case for the species imprisoned and/or by them establishing that the methods they use work with all.

The Empire was kind of speciesist in the EU ... but they aren't now when the elite of the Empire is made up of non-humans and the leader of the First Order was obviously some weirdo alien.

They keep non-humans out of most of the scenes regardless of context - it is more or less all-human Rebels, all-human normal guys, all-human Imperial elite (sans a couple of aliens in the background at Mon Mothma's party).

Instead the inconography seems to be blatantly inspired by real world issues with many of the people suffering from Imperial rule being marginalized groups in the US in the present.

I'm all for showing the fascist, totalitarian nature of the Empire (the whole show evokes one of the classical Marvel comics where Leia visited a completely totalitarian Imperial world) ... but if you do that, use the fact that the Empire might be hardest of some non-human fringe worlds and, especially, the species from former Separatist worlds.

At the same time there is also no way around the fact that Palpatine's core group of cronies included many non-human folks, first and foremost Mas Amedda - who is now the Grand Vizier of the Empire, i.e. the second in command outside the informal Sith hierarchy of Sidious and Vader - and Sly Moore. But Palpatine's rise to power was also supported and backed by many influential non-human worlds and power blocs - Ask Aak, the Gran Senator of Malastare springs to mind, but also Orn Free Taa of Ryloth and others.

The idea that the Imperial machine as such would just be 'human-only' outside the military just doesn't make much sense in context. Especially not on Coruscant.

And if the capital world had somehow be cleansed of many non-humans then we the system would have been collapsed much sooner since it is quite clear that neither the Galactic Republic nor the Galactic Empire are a political entity that consists mostly or exclusively of humans.

[Martell Spy]

The Empire isn't a monolith and also has hypocrisy. But that doesn't mean the alien racism isn't there and present in their systems of rewards/punishments.

It's been a long time since I read the Timothy Zahn books, but I'm pretty sure this was addressed in regards to Thrawn. His presence as a high level alien officer of the Empire was pretty damn conspicuous. Thrawn might even pop up in this series. I haven't heard anything, but I think it's possible.

 

[felice]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

At least they could have had some Twi'leks or other humanoid non-humans.

They seemed to be allocating prisoners to destinations based on their home planet. There's likely one or more Twi'lek-specific prison facilities elsewhere in the Empire.

2 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

It's been a long time since I read the Timothy Zahn books, but I'm pretty sure this was addressed in regards to Thrawn. His presence as a high level alien officer of the Empire was pretty damn conspicuous.

Those were written long before the Prequels retconned the Republic into a multispecies union.

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, felice said:

They seemed to be allocating prisoners to destinations based on their home planet. There's likely one or more Twi'lek-specific prison facilities elsewhere in the Empire.

I noticed that, the implication definitely is that different people go to different planets. But there is no indication, I think, that this has anything to do with the species of the people.

3 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

It's been a long time since I read the Timothy Zahn books, but I'm pretty sure this was addressed in regards to Thrawn. His presence as a high level alien officer of the Empire was pretty damn conspicuous. Thrawn might even pop up in this series. I haven't heard anything, but I think it's possible.

Zahn portrayed Palpatine, personally, as a xenophob/racist ... which was nonsense even in the old EU. Only Zahl flew with that. Folks kind of kept this element in a toned-down, mildly retconned version as there being Human Supremacists organization within the Empire, but this was really more a kind of window-dressing to some chauvinists, not an integral part of Imperial ideology ... and certainly not something that ensured Palpatine's success.

Darth Sidious would have never trained with a Muun Sith master nor chosen a Zabrak as his apprentice if he had had (severe) issues with non-human species.

28 minutes ago, felice said:

Those were written long before the Prequels retconned the Republic into a multispecies union.

No, the Republic was always made up of different species, even in the Zahn books there are species who were once part of the Republic (Mon Cals, Bothans, Elomin, etc.) which are now part of the New Republic which isn't imagined as larger or more diverse than the Old Republic.

Zahn only had Palpatine and thus the Empire as racist/speciesist. Thrawn is kind of an exception from the rule there - the super alien who is so great that the racist Emperor cannot pass him over.

In the EU the Empire was equally misogynist, with Admiral Natasi Daala being the only female Fleet Admiral (and that only because she was the lover/favorite of Grand Moff Tarkin). This was kind of toned down by Stackpole having a female secret service director with Ysanne Isard (which was one of the most powerful offices in the Empire) but they were fairly coherent there.

I think imagining the Old Republic as per the OT as a (mainly or exclusively) human enterprise makes no sense in light of the fact that you have a famous/powerful non-human Jedi Master with Yoda. If the Jedi - who were a very powerful and crucial organization in the Old Republic - a multi-species organization, then the Republic as a whole should be, too.

But even if you just look at ANH the many intelligent species living on Tatooine should imply that non-humans are a thing on many other worlds.

[Martell Spy]

 

 

 

Took this from the canon page. I'm glad this article calls out Princess Leia for her speciesism in calling Chewbacca a walking carpet.

Speciesism

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Xenophobia

Quote

 

This single-species domination was an intentional part of Imperial policy. Imperial propaganda actively supported state-sponsored ethnocentric xenophobia and fear-mongering. To the Empire, "aliens" were by and large unwelcome within its order, with aliens being seen as "different" and "strange". As such, the Empire treated nonhuman segments of its populations as serfs, slaves, or obstacles needing to be tamed, removed, or ignored. The Empire supported the idea that aliens were untrustworthy—unlike humans—and behind their veneer of innocence lurked vicious monsters. The Imperial propaganda machine was so effective in its message that even near-human species exhibited an inherent distrust toward nonhuman populations.[5] The Empire implemented the "High Human" culture prevalently on Coruscant, their capital world, suggesting the superiority of the human race.[14]

Some people tried to clear and absolve themselves from suspicion of humanocentrism by claiming to have friends of a targeted demographic, all while expressing prejudice in their actions.[3]

 

Effects on aliens

Bodach'i slaves on Kerev Doi

Quote

 

Nonhuman species like Wookiees,[9] Mon Calamari,[15] the Petrusians[16] and the Bodach'i[17] were known to be exploited as slave labor by the Empire. The Empire repealed laws banning slavery and reclassified several species, particularly Wookiees, as non-sentient.[2] Other species such as the Geonosians,[18] the Lasat[19] and the Squamatans[20] experienced genocide at the hands of the Empire.[2]

During the Age of the Empire, some human grav-ball fans on Lothal believed that alien physiognomies gave nonhuman players an unfair advantage. While there was no official league rule against nonhuman players, some individuals like Janus Fhurek did their best to exclude alien players from the grav-ball championship.[1] In addition, the Empire also discouraged the learning of alien languages and cultures such as Ithorese, and sought to impose high 'Imperial standards' for its citizens.[21] The discriminatory policies of the Empire forced some individuals like the Nikto Rinnrivin Di to turn to a life of crime. Rinnrivin became a spice dealer who later rose to become the crime lord of a major cartel during the New Republic era.[22]

Nevertheless, some nonhumans occupied lofty roles within the Empire, such as the Chagrian Mas Amedda, who served as the Empire's Grand Vizier,[23] the Pau'an Grand Inquisitor,[9] other Inquisitors such as the Seventh Sister, the Fifth Brother,[24] the Eighth Brother,[25] the Ninth Sister[26] and the Chiss Grand Admiral Thrawn.[27] Other nonhumans who worked with the Empire, either forcibly or voluntarily, were the Kubaz spy Garindan ezz Zavor[28] and the Aqualish Protectorate Gleb from Jinata Security.[29] Despite the ingrained xenophobia within the Imperial hierarchy, some Imperials like Moff Delian Mors and Admiral Rae Sloane were willing to work with some aliens like Nashi the Hutt[30] and the Sullustan crime lord Surat Nuat.[21] Imperial law-enforcement authorities also hired alien bounty hunters like the Trandoshan Bossk.[31]

 

The Rebellion's response

Rebel Alliance poster highlighting the plight of the Wookiees

Quote

The Rebel Alliance's Declaration of Rebellion condemned Emperor Palpatine and his Empire for instituting a policy of blatant speciesism and genocide against the nonhuman peoples of the galaxy.[2] Xenophobia appeared not to be limited to the Empire. The rebel Saw Gerrera, who was known for his harsh methods and tactics, disliked the Geonosians due to his Clone Wars experiences and labeled them "bugs." His harsh interrogation of Klik-Klak alarmed his Spectres comrades.[32] Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan referred to the Wookiee Chewbacca as a "walking carpet" during her rescue aboard the Death Star battle station in 0 BBY.[33]

 

[Jaxom 1974]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That could be easily resolved by establishing that this isn't the case for the species imprisoned and/or by them establishing that the methods they use work with all.

The Empire was kind of speciesist in the EU ... but they aren't now when the elite of the Empire is made up of non-humans and the leader of the First Order was obviously some weirdo alien.

They keep non-humans out of most of the scenes regardless of context - it is more or less all-human Rebels, all-human normal guys, all-human Imperial elite (sans a couple of aliens in the background at Mon Mothma's party).

Instead the inconography seems to be blatantly inspired by real world issues with many of the people suffering from Imperial rule being marginalized groups in the US in the present.

I'm all for showing the fascist, totalitarian nature of the Empire (the whole show evokes one of the classical Marvel comics where Leia visited a completely totalitarian Imperial world) ... but if you do that, use the fact that the Empire might be hardest of some non-human fringe worlds and, especially, the species from former Separatist worlds.

At the same time there is also no way around the fact that Palpatine's core group of cronies included many non-human folks, first and foremost Mas Amedda - who is now the Grand Vizier of the Empire, i.e. the second in command outside the informal Sith hierarchy of Sidious and Vader - and Sly Moore. But Palpatine's rise to power was also supported and backed by many influential non-human worlds and power blocs - Ask Aak, the Gran Senator of Malastare springs to mind, but also Orn Free Taa of Ryloth and others.

The idea that the Imperial machine as such would just be 'human-only' outside the military just doesn't make much sense in context. Especially not on Coruscant.

 

As to the general humans only on top in the Empire...it's more the military that is that way though, isn't it?  I always got the impression, especially post prequel series, that the military arm of the Empire was meant to be a humans only club.  

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Jaxom 1974 said:

As to the general humans only on top in the Empire...it's more the military that is that way though, isn't it?  I always got the impression, especially post prequel series, that the military arm of the Empire was meant to be a humans only club.  

One imagines that is more a legacy of the Clone Wars where the clones were human and all the military gear was designed to suit humans.

Now, why other humanoid species didn't also serve in the Imperial military is a valid question. One that should be addressed in some manner.

It is kind of glaring how few non-human species show up in Andor and the other real action TV shows whereas they are all over the place in the animated shows (notably in Tales of the Jedi which came out just now) but also in the comics.