Watched, Watched, Watching: It's not the plane, it's the pilot

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

I haven't had the rkind of esponses to the characters you name here (which seem heavily and only  from Walt's POV), so I don't see it like that.

Yeah I was never even aware of all the Skylar hate until Gunn published that op-ed.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Veltigar said:

I watched the first episode of Yellowjackets yesterday. Curious to see how that will continue.

You're in for a treat.

35 minutes ago, Mexal said:

Black Sails definitely fits that mold. We are burning through season 2 now (rewatch for me, first time for wife) and it just gets better and better.

Same, I'm halfway through S1. The first few episodes are hit or miss and then it just flies and never stops until the end of the series. Wish it was a bigger hit.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

Halt and Catch Fire is one of those shows that only has an upward spiral, and I feel that's not because any season is really weaker than another, but because it keep building up on what came before, developing the characters and their relationships further and delivering emotional moments that come off after seasons of build up.

For me, other shows that do that include Dark (people who have issues with how complex the storyline was will say season 1 was the best when for me season 1 was great, season 2 was miles better than season 1, and season 3 blew my mind, but the show was great throughout), The Leftovers, BoJack Horseman, arguably Black Sails and The Americans (season 5 may have been slower and lighter on action and I would not say it's better than seasons 3 and 4, but it continues character development and has some incredible moments that build up to the great final season).

Agree with this.. except Dark which has a really dramatic downward spiral and crashes into a black hole.

[Zorral]

11 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ok first of all those weren't used in battle, just ceremonial parades 

Second, I don't think I've to explain why I don't consider mainstream, commercial, historically inaccurate, manipulative, right-wing religious fundamentalist propaganda films as cinema. I could be bothered to appreciate the music, cinematography, screenplay, acting, direction or any facet if it was at least competent and not godawful. Maybe to an outsider it may seem as an entertainer but I'm sick of being fed that same old bull.

Here are some good Indian historical epics, international ones have better experts than me.

Jodha Akbar

Asoka

Padmaavat

Mughal-E-Azam

Ponniyin Selvan (upcoming)

Bajirao Mastani

Lagaan

Hey Ram

Marudhanayagam (filming paused for years, may/may not resume)

Rang De Basanti

Any of Satyajit Ray's numerous masterpieces, but in this context, Shatranj Ke Khiladi

 

If I wasn't so strict about intl stds, I'd include Baahubali, Kesari etc

So the caption says!  It felt pretty cool as ceremonial -- also imaginative.

Thank you for that list -- I have watched quite a few of them over the years, particularly Satyajit Ray -- a staple of university film series forever, of course, like Seven Samurai.  Probably among the first films, along with those of Trauffaut, de Sica and Bergman, to introduce the culturally benighted such as we in Nowherelandia to -- subtitles!   

[Annara Snow]

12 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Agree with this.. except Dark which has a really dramatic downward spiral and crashes into a black hole.

I've already seen that opinion, since there is a minority of people who watched all of Dark that feels that way, while most  people feel that the show was incredible throughout and was one  of the few shows that was perfectly planned and executed and never lets up, with one of the best finales ever and immense rewatch value.

Season 1 was relatively simple and was good, season 2 was much better and developed the characters much more, had a more complocated plot and had twists that really shocked me (unlike the season 1 ones, which I all guessed), jut it was season 3 that really blew my mind and took the show to a whole new level. I needed to see it twice so understand everything, but the finale was perfect, and the show gets better on every rewatch. It's so wonderfully constructed, and rewatching it feels so satisfying as the story holds up petfectly and there are so many things seem in a new light, so many parallels  and details and moments of foreshadowing.

[Heartofice]

25 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I've already seen that opinion, since there is a minority of people who watched all of Dark that feels that way, while most  people feel that the show was incredible throughout and was one  of the few shows that was perfectly planned and executed and never lets up, with one of the best finales ever and immense rewatch value.

Season 1 was relatively simple and was good, season 2 was much better and developed the characters much more, had a more complocated plot and had twists that really shocked me (unlike the season 1 ones, which I all guessed), jut it was season 3 that really blew my mind and took the show to a whole new level. I needed to see it twice so understand everything, but the finale was perfect, and the show gets better on every rewatch. It's so wonderfully constructed, and rewatching it feels so satisfying as the story holds up petfectly and there are so many things seem in a new light, so many parallels  and details and moments of foreshadowing.

I think there were certainly mixed opinions of the final season here. Personally I felt that last season was a bit of a mess, and completely went back on all the things that made that first season so interesting, turning a fascinating question about the nature of time itself and its paradoxes, to a simple battle between two people, which is far less interesting. 

I also felt the finale was horrible, a real let down, making the whole thing about.. er.. love or something felt so corny and teen drama, compared to what it was before: an incredibly intelligent and cleverly written drama that rewarded viewers who spent time thinking about the show.

The fact I can't even bring myself to look at the title card on Netflix now just shows to me just how let down I felt by this show, which should have been one of the best shows ever made, but is now rarely talked about.

[TheLastWolf]

31 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So the caption says!  It felt pretty cool as ceremonial -- also imaginative.

I was 9 or so when I first saw it and I was like, *cringe*. Maybe because I spent a lot of time with real pachyderms... OK, not a lot but still significant enough to discern. So this irrational opinion stuck. 

32 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Thank you for that list -- I have watched quite a few of them over the years, particularly Satyajit Ray -- a staple of university film series forever, of course, like Seven Samurai.  Probably among the first films, along with those of Trauffaut, de Sica and Bergman, to introduce the culturally benighted such as we in Nowherelandia to -- subtitles!  

Glad to be of service anytime! But where is this place you speak of? 

[Annara Snow]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think there were certainly mixed opinions of the final season here. Personally I felt that last season was a bit of a mess, and completely went back on all the things that made that first season so interesting, turning a fascinating question about the nature of time itself and its paradoxes, to a simple battle between two people, which is far less interesting. 

I also felt the finale was horrible, a real let down, making the whole thing about.. er.. love or something felt so corny and teen drama, compared to what it was before: an incredibly intelligent and cleverly written drama that rewarded viewers who spent time thinking about the show.

The fact I can't even bring myself to look at the title card on Netflix now just shows to me just how let down I felt by this show, which should have been one of the best shows ever made, but is now rarely talked about.

"Rarely talked about"?! Dark got talked about the most in 2020 after season 3 came out and got a great reception and reviews and there were a ton of articles about it being a great conclusion and the show ended on a bunch of best of 2020 lists, its finale is often mentioned as one of the best ever, dozens of YouTube reactors took it up as their next show because of all the fan suggestions, Netflix even tried to promote other show as "new Dark" (Equinox, which was nothing like it) or "prom the producers of Dark", and the fandom is now anticipating Jantje Friese and Baran Bo Odar's upcoming show 1899.

There is no objective criterion of what is good or bad in art, and your opinion about that is perfectly valid. But claiming that the final season was poorly received and that the show is "rsrrly tslked about" as a result is objectively, factually incorrect. Quite the opposite, the final season and the finale has been highly praised by the absolute majority of fans and revieeets and the show talked about more than ever. 

(The only thing that may be true is that it is probably generally little talked about - just as it always has been - in certain circiles, specifically people, mostly English speakers, who don't like subtitles and aren't interested in non-English language shows.)

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

"Rarely talked about"?! Dark got talked about the most in 2020 after season 3 came out and got a great reception and reviews and there were a ton of articles about it being a great conclusion and the show ended on a bunch of best of 2020 lists, its finale is often mentioned as one of the best ever, dozens of YouTube reactors took it up as their next show because of all the fan suggestions, Netflix even tried to promote other show as "new Dark" (Equinox, which was nothing like it) or "prom the producers of Dark", and the fandom is now anticipating Jantje Friese and Baran Bo Odar's upcoming show 1899.

There is no objective criterion of what is good or bad in art, and your opinion about that is perfectly valid. But claiming that the final season was poorly received and that the show is "rsrrly tslked about" as a result is objectively, factually incorrect. Quite the opposite, the final season and the finale has been highly praised by the absolute majority of fans and revieeets and the show talked about more than ever. 

(The only thing that may be true is that it is probably generally little talked about - just as it always has been - in certain circiles, specifically people, mostly English speakers, who don't like subtitles and aren't interested in non-English language shows.)

hmm, maybe, all I know is here there a pretty even split of people who thought the finale was good and those who really didn't like it. I certainly rarely see anyone talk about it any more, whereas when season one came out I have a bunch of people recommend it, I don't see that any more, I think because it never lived up to the promise of the first season.

My issue with almost every season ending for the show was that they would introduce a new concept right at the end, which could potentially wreck the show or make it more interesting. For instance at the end of season one they had the future time period apocalypse, then season 2 it was the alternate versions of characters (if I remember right tbh). I think every time those concepts chipped away at what was so good and made it worse. 

What was most intriguing in the show was that it set up this trap for the writers that I was really interested to see how they would break out of it. A time travel story where everything is basically preordained and you can't break the loop was just mind blowing, I absolutely loved it. Very powerful. A story about the cyclical infinite nature of time that was unbending and unchangable. Brilliant. 

Except of course the writers could never stick to that concept, and I knew they couldn't, it would be too hard to tell that story. But I had some hope they would. Instead they came up with convoluted silliness of all of reality and time being manipulated by a couple of people, with lots of jumping around and moving pieces about. It was far less interesting, or clever. The clever narrative trap they created for themselves was instead smashed with a hammer and the best bits of the show fell apart. 

I'm sure some people liked it, as I said, I've seen mixed opinions, but I do think it was a let down, not just for myself.

[DaveSumm]

I don’t have much to add objectively, but that’s not my experience with Dark at all. I don’t recall seeing anyone claim it was one of the great finales or anything like that. The subreddit was generally positive but with a lot of naysayers, and same on the thread here.

Season 1 and 2 set the bar so high for complicated time travel plots that I had immense faith that the series would hang together when it was finished, but it really doesn’t. I could maybe understand how emotionally it made for a good ending, but there’s huge holes in how it wrapped up. But I guess you’d need to resurrect the thread to delve into that.

[Annara Snow]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

hmm, maybe, all I know is here there a pretty even split of people who thought the finale was good and those who really didn't like it. I certainly rarely see anyone talk about it any more, whereas when season one came out I have a bunch of people recommend it, I don't see that any more, I think because it never lived up to the promise of the first season.

My issue with almost every season ending for the show was that they would introduce a new concept right at the end, which could potentially wreck the show or make it more interesting. For instance at the end of season one they had the future time period apocalypse, then season 2 it was the alternate versions of characters (if I remember right tbh). I think every time those concepts chipped away at what was so good and made it worse. 

What was most intriguing in the show was that it set up this trap for the writers that I was really interested to see how they would break out of it. A time travel story where everything is basically preordained and you can't break the loop was just mind blowing, I absolutely loved it. Very powerful. A story about the cyclical infinite nature of time that was unbending and unchangable. Brilliant. 

Except of course the writers could never stick to that concept, and I knew they couldn't, it would be too hard to tell that story. But I had some hope they would. Instead they came up with convoluted silliness of all of reality and time being manipulated by a couple of people, with lots of jumping around and moving pieces about. It was far less interesting, or clever. The clever narrative trap they created for themselves was instead smashed with a hammer and the best bits of the show fell apart. 

I'm sure some people liked it, as I said, I've seen mixed opinions, but I do think it was a let down, not just for myself.

Characters were manipulating the reality and jumping back and forth in season 1 already  - and just fulfilling their fate, paradoxically, as events were unchangeable in a time travel reality.

I don't doubt that there is a number of people who were into the show in season 1 - when it was promoted as "German Stranger Things" and seemed to be a relatively simple (except for the numner of characters) story of a missing child that turned out to be a slightly more complicated time travel story - and drifted apart when the show turned out to be more like a Greek tragedy with an incredibly complicated plot than yet another "kid missing in small town" fun Netflix SciFi mystery. The show is simply not for everyone and was always going to lose a number of casual viewers, in particular.

[Annara Snow]

7 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I don’t have much to add objectively, but that’s not my experience with Dark at all. I don’t recall seeing anyone claim it was one of the great finales or anything like that. The subreddit was generally positive but with a lot of naysayers, and same on the thread here.

Season 1 and 2 set the bar so high for complicated time travel plots that I had immense faith that the series would hang together when it was finished, but it really doesn’t. I could maybe understand how emotionally it made for a good ending, but there’s huge holes in how it wrapped up. But I guess you’d need to resurrect the thread to delve into that.

I can't think of any plot holes. Would you name what you consider a plot hole in spoiler tags?

I'm mot on Reddit.  But every question about it has been elaborated on a bunch of times in other discussions and various YouTube videos.

There is just one question left unanswered and that was deliberately so, because it was a running joke and not an actual mystery (Woller's eye).

[Heartofice]

19 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Characters were manipulating the reality and jumping back and forth in season 1 already  - and just fulfilling their fate, paradoxically, as events were unchangeable in a time travel reality.

I don't doubt that there is a number of people who were into the show in season 1 - when it was promoted as "German Stranger Things" and seemed to be a relatively simple (except for the numner of characters) story of a missing child that turned out to be a slightly more complicated time travel story - and drifted apart when the show turned out to be more like a Greek tragedy with an incredibly complicated plot than yet another "kid missing in small town" fun Netflix SciFi mystery. The show is simply not for everyone and was always going to lose a number of casual viewers, in particular.

Lol, that is quite a take. The idea that audiences liked the low brow first season but were put off by how clever it became seems like the exact opposite of how I view the show. Far from becoming more complex, it just became stupider, with a number of convenient plot devices to allow the writers to finish the show. That is the reason I was put off the last season.

[DaveSumm]

Here’s where Season 3 drops, roughly, and the discussion starts. Best I can do is direct you there @Annara Snow 

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Lol, that is quite a take. The idea that audiences liked the low brow first season but were put off by how clever it became seems like the exact opposite of how I view the show. Far from becoming more complex, it just became stupider, with a number of convenient plot devices to allow the writers to finish the show. That is the reason I was put off the last season.

To use the quote:

Lol, that is quite a take. 

ETA: OK, to be a little less flippant: mot only is this quite a bizarre take, and a pretty funny one that a show becoming even more complex and  requiring more and more attention from and thought from the from the viewer makes it "stupider" (okaaay)..  it's also not an argument I could respond to, just a bunch of words that sound pejorative. What even is a "convenient plot device" and how and why it's supposed to be bad? Every plot consists of a bunch of plot devices that allow the writers to start, progress and finish the story. That is, by definition, what storytelling is. And they're convenient, if the writers know what the hell they're doing (which they definitely did, as in this case). You'd be a hack if you wanted  to use an inconvenient plot device, one that doesn't suit your story.

Similarly, I don't think there's any way to respond to the argument that it's bad that the resolution relied on romance, among other human relationships, and that love - romantic or familial - was a crucial motivation of most of the characters. If you think that's a bad thing, then OK? I don't think it is.

[Heartofice]

36 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Here’s where Season 3 drops, roughly, and the discussion starts. Best I can do is direct you there @Annara Snow 

Thanks for posting that, it’s amazing how much I had forgotten about the whole discussion. Yeah that brought back my issues with what I felt the show became. 

[Annara Snow]

47 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Here’s where Season 3 drops, roughly, and the discussion starts. Best I can do is direct you there @Annara Snow 

I remember posting in that thread. I don't remember if I read all of it. But it confirms my overall impressions that most of the reactions were very positive.

[polishgenius]

35 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

What even is a "convenient plot device" and how and why it's supposed to be bad?

 

When people say that they mean one that's artificially convenient, ie obviously just there to solve a problem or move a situation on and not disguised within the storytelling. I haven't seen Dark so I can't comment if HoI is right or not but that's what he's referring to.

[Annara Snow]

1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

 

When people say that they mean one that's artificially convenient, ie obviously just there to solve a problem or move a situation on and not disguised within the storytelling. I haven't seen Dark so I can't comment if HoI is right or not but that's what he's referring to.

Plot devices are bad only when they don't make sense - requiring the characters to start acting against their established characterizations, violating the worldbuilding rules and/or being illogical. If I saw concrete arguments about how that is supposedly the case here, I could respond, but just saying there were convenient plot devices - I don't know how even to respond to that.

[Heartofice]

44 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Plot devices are bad only when they don't make sense - requiring the characters to start acting against their established characterizations, violating the worldbuilding rules and/or being illogical. If I saw concrete arguments about how that is supposedly the case here, I could respond, but just saying there were convenient plot devices - I don't know how even to respond to that.

It’s not necessarily about the plot devices not making sense. It can be that devices need to be added to fix the problems the plot sets up without feeling satisfactory within the original premise.

In terms of Dark my issue is that the show initially sets itself a difficult problem narratively, which made the show stand out and kept me gripped. That being that time is unchangeable and almost predetermined, everything in a cycle of events. It has this setup of 3 time periods which worked to loop into each other. It was a great concept.

The problem is it made telling a story very difficult and there was little way to resolve the conundrums in the show without introducing new elements and rules which will have to break the previous rules.

And that is what the show did. 
 

Because it looked like events could not be changed, the show had to create other time loops, another time period, different versions of characters. It had to solve problems by making it all about something that can’t be defined, like love.

It had to basically rely on a number of much less interesting or clever plot devices to get the job done, and that to me is the main reason why the show failed.