Why aren’t people growing weirwoods?

[Vaegon the dragonless]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

It is absolutely anecdotal, and people are certainly speculating, but it’s what we have to work with (well, that and lots of time, lots of time) and there is some reason to believe that first vision is the “birth” of the tree.

Honestly, I could still go either way.

The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

The visions are pretty clearly going backwards in time. So assuming the last vision is from tree’s “birth” isn’t unreasonable, especially given that there is other possible support for this idea.

However, I would be remiss if I did not mention that the old woman with the sickle walks through “a drift of dark red leaves”, which presumably came from an already existing Weirwood. This detail does give me pause and cause to think the tree is still old enough to make piles of leaves at this point.

But the fact that the Heart-tree is there during the sacrifice can only mean that the tree was there before we see any blood  spilled to make it grow, I can see how you can get from this passage that the old Gods demand human sacrifice but that the Weirwoods (that in fact are older then the arrival of man in Westeros) needs a sacrifice is just so much of a leap.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

But the fact that the Heart-tree is there during the sacrifice can only mean that the tree was there before we see any blood  spilled to make it grow, I can see how you can get from this passage that the old Gods demand human sacrifice but that the Weirwoods (that in fact are older then the arrival of man in Westeros) needs a sacrifice is just so much of a leap.

I don't think it means that for sure, we also get the idea of seeing through the "spirit", like when Varamyr dies, or Bran is told a greenseer can learn to see beyond the eyes of the trees themselves.

The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves.

When we combine that with Bloodraven's explanation:

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

There is some decent reason to suspect Bran saw the "birth" of the tree in the last vision.

[Evolett]

9 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't think it means that for sure, we also get the idea of seeing through the "spirit", like when Varamyr dies, or Bran is told a greenseer can learn to see beyond the eyes of the trees themselves.

The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves

 

9 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

Just had a thought. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. The bolded parts of the quotes suggest the seeds are also gates through which a greenseer can see ... well beyond the trees themselves. In other words all recorded events can be accessed through the seeds as well, or through consumption of the seeds as in weirwood paste. This is probably why Bran sees the past histories of the Winterfell weirwood independently of sitting on his weirwood throne. If this is the case, I wonder whether those seeds originally came from the Winterfell heart tree or if consuming seeds from a particular tree grants easy access to the memories of the "mother tree". The Ghost of High Heart says she dreams. Are her dreams like Jojen's green dreams or is she a greenseer who "sees well beyond the trees themselves"?

  

[Mourning Star]

1 minute ago, Evolett said:

 

Just had a thought. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. The bolded parts of the quotes suggest the seeds are also gates through which a greenseer can see ... well beyond the trees themselves. In other words all recorded events can be accessed through the seeds as well, or through consumption of the seeds as in weirwood paste. This is probably why Bran sees the past histories of the Winterfell weirwood independently of sitting on his weirwood throne. If this is the case, I wonder whether those seeds originally came from the Winterfell heart tree or if consuming seeds from a particular tree grants easy access to the memories of the "mother tree". The Ghost of High Heart says she dreams. Are her dreams like Jojen's green dreams or is she a greenseer who "sees well beyond the trees themselves"?

  

It is not clear to me what the seeds of Weirwoods are, or in fact if they are individual to trees as opposed to collective. But it is an interesting thought.

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

It is not clear to me what the seeds of Weirwoods are, or in fact if they are individual to trees as opposed to collective. But it is an interesting thought.

We should probably give oak trees and acorns some in-depth attention. Pehaps that will shed some light on what's going on with the weirwoods. An oak tree graces the King's Landing godswood instead of a weirwood. Arya visits Acorn hall, wears a dress patterned with embroidered acorns and eats a lot of acorn paste during her journey through the Riverlands. Walder Frey sits on a throne made of oak wood. There is house Oakheart of Old Oak and so on. John the Oak, legendary founder of House Oakheart was a son of Garth Greenhand and Arys Oakheart was Myrcella's sworn shield. 

Regarding seeds in general - unlike trees, seeds are mobile and in nature are dispersed far and wide, making it possible for plants to grow far from their point of origin. This principle could thus also apply to seeds as a means of seeing beyond the trees themselves. If the oak is the acorn and the acorn is the oak, then all memories of the tree would be replicated in the seed. But logically, a seed would only contain the memories up to a certain point in time, the point that it's dispersed or falls from the tree. To speculate further, perhaps this is why Bran sees the relatively fresh memory of Ned while looking through the eyes of the weirwood as opposed to beginning with the younger version of Ned and going backwards in time while detached from the tree. 

[Vaegon the dragonless]

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't think it means that for sure, we also get the idea of seeing through the "spirit", like when Varamyr dies, or Bran is told a greenseer can learn to see beyond the eyes of the trees themselves.

The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves.

When we combine that with Bloodraven's explanation:

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

There is some decent reason to suspect Bran saw the "birth" of the tree in the last vision.

Well I still dont get how that would indicate the need for blood... Its just show that the tree's are old and that would be the main reason to why they are not easely cultivated. And sure Bran migth have seen the birth of the tree but since Brans sees the man "forced down on is knees before the Heart-tree" that to me indicates that the veart tree is already somewhat grown and they're for the sacrifice (if it is a sacrifice) does not seem to be involved with the "birth of the tree".

[LynnS]

On 7/7/2022 at 5:14 AM, Aldarion said:

That is actually the theory I prefer. Also, wasn't there mention of some sort of weirwood network under the Wall, or I am misremembering things?

Hmm, I don't know about weirwood under the Wall; although the Black Gate is connected in some way and there is the weirwood breaking through the stone floor of the kitchen at the Night Fort.  The thing is that Bran is instructed to go into the roots of the tree, when he is wed to the tree ,and he ends up at Winterfell. To my mind, he travelled the root system to get there.

It might also be that the weirwood only produce nuts in the spring, after winter and with the long summers and winters; seed production would be a rare event.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 7/7/2022 at 10:14 AM, Aldarion said:

That is actually the theory I prefer. Also, wasn't there mention of some sort of weirwood network under the Wall, or I am misremembering things?

Hi Aldarion. 

The weirwood network under the Wall is a theory I proposed a while back. I'll quickly outline my reasons for thinking such.

I propose the 'sapling' Bran sees at the Nightfort is actually a branch from a huge weirwood embedded into the Wall directly below. The face of that weirwood would therefore be the Black Gate. The magic the trees possess, and the greenseer inhabitation (or total immersion) of that tree would facilitate the face being able to move and talk. I think we've seen glimpses of this ability when Bran speaks to Theon, his face appears to Theon in the tree, he tastes blood, reaches out and touches Theon with a leaf (or hand). It seems Bran is at one with the tree and able to control it, I think it's George's version of the Ents.

Anyhoo, the Wall and its potential weirwood network. If, as I suggest the sapling Bran sees is actually a branch from a tree below then this passage in a Tyrion chapter is interesting. 

Quote

'Tyrion had heard that elsewhere along the Wall, between the three fortresses, the wildwood had come creeping back over the decades, that there were places where grey-green sentinels and pale white weirwoods had taken root in the shadow of the Wall itself, but Castle Black had a prodigious appetite for firewood, and here the forest was still kept at bay by the axes of the black brothers.'    (Tyrion III, AGOT)

Where the Black Brothers aren't chopping down the trees, the weirwoods are popping up right next to the Wall. I think these weirwoods are branches from weirwood trees below the surface or actually embedded into the Wall. These branches are bursting through the ground and being mistaken as saplings.

(Alternatively, they could be saplings that are sprouting from the weirwood network below. The premise remains the same, the weirwood network spreads throughout the Wall from East to West)

If this is the case and the the Wall was built on a weirwood grove (or hollow hill site) that spreads from coast to coast it would explain why Mel thinks the Wall is a 'hinge of the world'. It would be the most sacred and magical place in all of Westeros. It may help with any magic required in building the Wall and explain the ward running all along the Wall etc.

Where we've seen a magical ward, a weirwood tree, caves, tunnels etc have been present. Storm's End being the obvious example, Bloodraven's hollow hill (and perhaps Winterfell's crypts) 

We've seen weirwoods can thrive underground as well. 

Quote

'There is even a godswood of sorts, though the weirwood that grows there is a queer, twisted thing whose tangled roots have all but filled the cave where it stands, choking out all other growth.' (TWOIAF, The Westerlands: Casterly Rock)

Pretty much all the weirwoods we've seen are growing above a cave system & tunnels etc. They grow atop hollow hills. The Wall is a likely candidate as the site of the biggest hollow hill site in all of Westeros. The hollow hills have weirwood trees, caves, tunnels etc all of which are present at the Wall. 

In conclusion, in my opinion the Wall has a lot of evidence that's suggests it's a magical hollow hill site with weirwoods growing all along it from coast to coast. Embedded into the foundations of the Wall itself.

I agree that the Pando theory @LynnS suggested is a good one. 

Cheers 

(Off to catch up with the rest of this thread)

 

[Evolett]

26 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

n conclusion, in my opinion the Wall has a lot of evidence that's suggests it's a magical hollow hill site with weirwoods growing all along it from coast to coast. Embedded into the foundations of the Wall itself.

Nice. Yes, very possible. The Gendel and Gorne legend, if true, supports the idea of a cavern running beneath the Wall, along a section of it at least. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

45 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Nice. Yes, very possible. The Gendel and Gorne legend, if true, supports the idea of a cavern running beneath the Wall, along a section of it at least. 

Hi Evolett, and thank you. 

Absolutely. The tale suggests the cave system was so long that Gendel & Gorne (or one of them) got horribly lost. I agree that it would run along a section of the Wall, and I would go as far to say it would be a rather large section. And wouldn't rule out the cave system reaching from coast to coast, (Gendel & Gorne only traversed a part of the system after all) The entirety of Westeros seems to be linked via cave systems and tunnels. Haha.

There's the wormways as well. Quite possible they connect to each of the castles along the Wall.

I should have mentioned, further evidence in support of the weirwood trees being embedded in the Wall can be found in the tale of the 79 Sentinels. They are literally symbolic trees embedded within the Wall. Symbolic trees embedded in the Wall to keep watch at that. Very weirwoody.

 

[LongRider]

Aspen trees are a good model for the WW trees.  Extensive root system, reproduces with both root sprouts and seeds and can be very long lived.  Also, lots of aspen trees in and around Santa Fe where GRRM lives. 
 

An extensive, connecting root system is perfect for a Weirnet, but of course there would be more to the ‘net than that. The face’s on the trees see much, but also Old God magic surely plays its part. 

I have some more thoughts and will post soon after I get off the phone     Good thread

Hi @Wizz-The-Smith

 

[LongRider]

Ok, the Weir Wood trees were cut down for what, thousands of years?  The worship of the Seven did not approve of Weirwood trees or groves so currently very few are found in the South.  Although more common in the North they have declined there.  Makes me wonder just how powerful the root system is, as the weirnet seems quite robust.

Bran witnessed one person being sacrificed before a WW tree, which to me does not prove that all WW trees 'need' blood sacrifices to grow.  As a WW tree is associated with the First Men and the Old Gods, a ritual sacrifice, probably rare, would be done before one of these trees.  Were these trees considered holy?  Being found in the Northern God Woods I would say yes.

Mention upthread about the cost and rarity of WW, I put a list of some known objects of weirwood.   I do not consider this list complete.  Interesting though, how WW wood, has traveled the Planetos world.

Quote

in the House of the Undying, Dani goes through an ebony and WW door
Black Gate made of WW
old WW table, White Sword Tower of the KG, first floor
Lysa's WW chair at High Hall in the Eyrie
the Moon Door is made is made of WW
WW and ebony door at the HoBW
the old High Septon in KL has a WW staff
Varamyr finds a broken branch of WW he uses as a crutch (prologe of Dance)
Leaf has WW bowl of paste WW seeds for Bran
Morna has WW mask
Val has a WW pin
beneath the temple of HoBW the room had 11 WW chairs, on the chair backs were faces carved of Ebony

 

[LongRider]

On 7/7/2022 at 5:04 PM, Evolett said:

The Ghost of High Heart says she dreams. Are her dreams like Jojen's green dreams or is she a greenseer who "sees well beyond the trees themselves"?

The GoHH telling us that she dreams is interesting as the top of High Hill is ringed with WW stumps. Does she dream there?  Can WW stumps retain some of their power? 

[Darth Sidious]

On 7/7/2022 at 2:42 PM, Vaegon the dragonless said:

That would be extremely anecdotal, the vision is not clear, it could be a sacrifice or could be a execution. But neither would indicate that it is what makes the weirwood grow, even if it is a sacrifice doing it infront a heart-tree (not the same as a weirwood) would be the same as doing it infront a statue or on a altar. The bones could very well be a sepulture, after all we normally put graveyard next and around church's to be closer to "God", could very well be that once burned the family and friends of the dead wanted them to be close to they're Gods and put them in the Weirwood since they are associated with the old Gods.

It seems that people are bent on the idea that the old gods are bad (wich they could be) and that they must want blood sacrifice, and by extension everything associated with that faith requires some dark and bloody when their is little to go on.

It’s not anecdotal. We’ve had pages showing us that the First Men were feeding  blood to trees. Davos was told of entrails being given to trees. I guess its the First Men’s idea of decorating the trees and nourishing it with blood. Maybe the First Men were exyremely stupid and dumping blood just for the hell of it. It’s possible they are still primitive. Culturally. But it is probably through years of observation that they learned to feed blood to those damned trees to make them grow.

[Darth Sidious]

On 7/7/2022 at 6:06 PM, Vaegon the dragonless said:

But the fact that the Heart-tree is there during the sacrifice can only mean that the tree was there before we see any blood  spilled to make it grow, I can see how you can get from this passage that the old Gods demand human sacrifice but that the Weirwoods (that in fact are older then the arrival of man in Westeros) needs a sacrifice is just so much of a leap.

Nope. It does not mean that. The savages were not fumbling during the ceremony. They’ve been doing this for a long time.  And the poor prisoner was not the first victim given to that tree. 

[Seams]

The reason that weirwoods won't grow at the Eyrie is that - I suspect - the Eyrie represents the sky, possibly the moon. The waycastles Stone, Snow and Sky tell you that you have left the earth as you ascend. 

I agree with the saprophytes and the pando notions.

One of my favorite wildflowers is called the rattlesnake plantain, which sounds like a name GRRM would dream up. He would also like the irony because it is not a plantain and it has nothing to do with rattlesnakes - it's actually an orchid. Like the Lady's Slipper, the rattlesnake plantain requires the presences of a specific fungus in the soil in order to germinate. 

If GRRM has a backstory for the weirwoods, he might imagine some of these elements - or the rare combination of elements - as part of the recipe for weirwood growth. It would not surprise me at all if growing a new weirwood is a semi-magical skill that has been lost over the years, much like the hatching of dragon eggs.

On 7/7/2022 at 4:49 PM, Mourning Star said:

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

I've started pondering the "red mud" that is associated with the Red Fork of the Trident. In addition to "drummed / red mud" wordplay, I think Edmure's name may also represent red mud. 

Quote

The Red Fork is one of the three main rivers of the Trident in the riverlands, ... It is named after the mud and silt from the western mountains;^[1] Ser Brynden Tully considers the red mud to be colored Tully red.^[2]

Quote

For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them.

Taken together with Bloodraven's words about time as a river (for humans), I think we can make some inferences about the passage of time and the events that Bran observes through the weirwood.

I think the white-haired woman in Bran's vision is Lady Stoneheart. The imagery and word choices may tell us that the man's blood is creating the Red Fork of the Trident. If the Red Fork and the Red Trees are parallel, we can make some educated guesses about weirwoods functioning the way that rivers function. To my mind, this reinforces the case for the network of roots that flows into other roots. 

The sickle in the hand of the white-haired woman may represent a cycle. (This is not my idea. Sorry I don't remember who made the great catch about Ice and Ice-cicles a few months back.) A lot of us suspect that time is cyclical in Westeros - history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. So the sickle may be a magical tool for breaking the cycle of some story that Lady Stoneheart doesn't want repeated. (If I'm right that the white-haired woman is Lady Stoneheart, the "sickle" might also be a broken or reworked version of the ancient crown of the kings of winter, which was recreated for Robb Stark by the smith at Riverrun. The crown seems to eventually make its way back to Stoneheart.)

The fallen leaves in Bran's vision support the theory that the white-haired woman is Lady Stoneheart, imho, because of this early moment in the first Catelyn POV:

Quote

Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet, but the red eyes of the weirwood seemed to follow her as she came.

(AGoT, Catelyn I)

Catelyn notices the rich topsoil, called humus. The special soil may reinforce the idea that weirwoods require special soil conditions and will not grow without the exact right combination of elements in the soil.

Interesting to note, too, that weirwood leaves are shaped like hands and we have such a strong motif of severed and maimed hands throughout ASOIAF. In Catelyn's POV, figuratively, the humus is swallowing her feet. Although it's not literal, both the leaf hands turning to humus and the swallowed footsteps (as well as the blood from Ned's sword) might be taken as evidence of the necessity of human sacrifices in the gods wood. 

And, yes, I do think there is an unstated pun on humus and hummus, the paste (like weirwood paste?!) made from chickpeas. GRRM doesn't state it explicitly, but he does refer to people eating "pease" and "pease porridge". I think this is a deliberate nod toward "peace". Hummus is made from whirled peas and one of the themes of the series is the need for world peace.

In other words, the soil is important. Both humus and red mud.

[LongRider]

On 7/1/2022 at 6:53 AM, Mourning Star said:

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young).

“Some say—one version of the tale goes—whilst another claims.” Proves nothing, sounds like anti-The Children propaganda, the tales told by those who vanquished the Children. 
 

In Bran’s vision we see one death, was it a sacrifice or an execution?  They are not the same thing.  
 

The slaves who killed the slavers at the Wolf’s Den, made a one time sacrifice to the Heart tree for thanks for being freed, not to feed the heart tree.

 I view the proof that the WW trees require blood sacrifice is quite thin. 
 

However, Melisandre makes many blood sacrifices in the form of burning folks in her fires.  Seems R’hllor is more hungry for blood sacrifices than the WW trees and the Old Gods ever were.

 

[Vaegon the dragonless]

8 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

It’s not anecdotal. We’ve had pages showing us that the First Men were feeding  blood to trees. Davos was told of entrails being given to trees. I guess its the First Men’s idea of decorating the trees and nourishing it with blood. Maybe the First Men were exyremely stupid and dumping blood just for the hell of it. It’s possible they are still primitive. Culturally. But it is probably through years of observation that they learned to feed blood to those damned trees to make them grow.

Two instances is anecdotal, because this is the only two time that were are told of possible sacrifice. Bran vision does point in that direction but since we dont know when that vision take place and what is exactly happening we cant take it for sure as a sacrifice. The Wolfs Den incident could just be mob violence, since we are told that the slavers were given to they're slaves, them going over the top and displaying the inside of said slaver's is not completely out side mob violence, the Dutch ate they're bloody minister in the 17th century during a riot, that does not make them cannibals.

 

8 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Nope. It does not mean that. The savages were not fumbling during the ceremony. They’ve been doing this for a long time.  And the poor prisoner was not the first victim given to that tree. 

But its clear from what you responded that you are mainly prejudist against the First Men and everything associated with them, so what ever argument I could come up with you would just dismiss. You see the First Men as just a bunch of savages, I see them as a complexe and old culture so we will never agree most likely.

But to go back to what we were talking, the Weirwood, it is older then man on Westeros so the chances that man as something to do with how they grow are minimal at best. A tree that needs human blood to grow but is from a continent where man does not exist is a really stupid evolutionary dead end, so that is most likely not the reason people dont grow more Weirwood Trees.

[Moiraine Sedai]

The Weirwoods accept the blood of the Children too. I would assume Giants as well.  The first men must have learned the ritual from the Children and continued during their reign in the North.  How often they need blood is the question. 
 

We have seen a dead weirwood that refused to rot. How was it poisoned? Was it fed the blood of an incompatible person? Say, like the blood of a Valyrian? Maybe one of the Celtigars or the Velaryons spilled a drop of blood by accident and killed the tree. 

[One-Winged Balrog]

On 7/1/2022 at 3:41 PM, Springwatch said:

Weirwoods might have been seen as a problem in the south, because they don't rot. There might have been an excess of huge dead hulks like the Blackwood tree.  Too big to hide, and too stone-like to carve up.

Wood that does not rot would be an amazing resource. Imagine a wooden house that lasts forever.

I think I know why Weirwoods are gone... too bloody useful.