Depiction of incest in ASOIAF

[Daeron the Daring]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not exactly true. Yes, Maegor-Rhaena was condemned by the Faith, but it seems this was because it was viewed as the Targaryens wanting to continue their incestuous marriage policy (and because the High Septon needed a reason to throw his niece at Maegor). As per FaB incest as defined by the Faith is mother-son, father-daughter, and brother-sister - not uncle-niece or aunt-nephew (although I assume it also includes grandparents-grandchildren - at least I hope it does).

Yes, but there was also no counterargument. I imagine, if it was acceptable, at least there would've been a reaction back to that. But it could depend on the ruling High Septon anyways. Blocking a marriage to happen between cousins happened for political reasons IRL, as the papal approval was always required. 

But what's courious is that we have confirmation from the faith of the Old Gods and the Growned God, but not from the faith. Except for Maegor-Rhaena. Which is at the very least strange.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

(even more so if you consider that quite a few cultures extend the incest taboo to step and adoptive relations as well as certain types of in-laws).

Religious reasons.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That said - I think George portrays incestuous marriage policies quite well at some points in FaB, but not so well in others. For instance, the number of incestuous romances is far too high. Most siblings do not love each other romantically - but Aegon/Rhaenys, Jaehaerys/Alysanne, Baelon/Alyssa, Aemon/Naerys, Jaehaerys/Saera, Cersei/Jaime etc. do. That is pretty unrealistic in context.

Since Westeros imitates medieval Europe, I think this is only hypothetical, since it couldn't really be compared to anything, altough we have examples of incestuous royalty on the sibling level from the industrial age. That being said, it all depends on how a Targaryen processes these things up. We can clearly see Egg isn't bothered by the fact that the person that wanted to make him drink love potion was his sister, he was bothered because he didn't find any interest in girls just yet. Later on his life, he has an entirely different take, and that's because he grew up in a drastically different way than Targaryens usually did. I think they are just aren't bothered by it, and the reason they may look at other places is because it's new. On the contrary, you can see people like Daemon, who was most probably fixed on Valyrian looks.

 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I guess one has to check the prevalence of certain disorders and genes and do are study throughout dozens of generations, but cultures/regions were cousin marriages are the rule and not an exception can cause problems eventually. I think certain hereditary diseases are more prevalent in certain regions of Pakistan, for instance.

For example, it can be seen in the Arab world that certain diseases that can be connected to inbreeding are more prevalent than usual, while others are less (due to natural selection). 

But inbreeding is always more dangerous in smaller scales than in larger ones. Regardless of distance of relation.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I've done geneological studies on my ancestors, and it is very intriguing to figure out in what degree distant great-grandparents are related to each other. Second or third cousin marriages are not rare at all, especially if you family lived in the same area for centuries.

Not to mention that it was and is really hard to keep count of your second and third cousins, with a moderate sized extended family, especially when you include cousins and uncles/aunts/nieces/nephews of different generations. In my langauage, there isn't even a way to express 'once removed' or 'twice removed'. Surely, If I think it trough, I realise that my moms uncle is my grand uncle (that would be a literal translation), but at the end of the day I think of him as my uncle, and when I asked my mom who he is to me, she said he's just my uncle, and I also was told that my first cousin's son (of my age) is my cousin (implicating that we are first cousins), but if I want to be more specific, I can call him my second cousin. 

I would say my extended faimily is moderate sized and I don't know the amount of second cousins I have (no times removed), and I surely know people that I don't know are related to me, third cousins or closer. Childhood friend and former classmate as well. Didn't know she was my third cousin until I was 19. And I myself am on the journey to get down the rabbit hole, as of now. Can't tell why, but I just care.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yes, but there was also no counterargument. I imagine, if it was acceptable, at least there would've been a reaction back to that. But it could depend on the ruling High Septon anyways. Blocking a marriage to happen between cousins happened for political reasons IRL, as the papal approval was always required. 

We don't get the exact details. The way it is presented it is clear that Aegon and Aenys and Alyssa didn't really like the 'Maegor should marry Rhaena' idea in the first place. After all, they all clearly hoped that Rhaena would get a little brother and said brother would eventually marry Rhaena ... or in any case - he would be the next in line to the throne, meaning there was no need to strengthen Maegor's claim by marrying him to Rhaena.

In that general situation the High Septon's letter arrived ... and not so much as a threat but as a 'We don't like that idea, King Aegon, but look ... I've got a solution for you!' scenario. In a sense, I think we should view this thing not so much as a conflict between the Faith and the Targaryens but the Faith and the Hightowers jumping on the chance to get closer to the throne by helpin Aegon to gracefully deny Visenya a marriage she wanted to push through.

If avuncular marriages were frowned upon or an issue then I think the match between Jocelyn Baratheon and Prince Aemon would have caused problems ... both with the Baratheons as well as the Faith and the Realm in general. Jocelyn was the half-sister of the king and queen ... but she was not the blood of the dragon (in a meaningful or confirmed sense) and should thus not be included in the Doctrine of Exceptionalism.

We don't have a parallel to papal dispensation, etc. in Westeros, since there are no religious laws/customs restricting marriages among kin. Aside from parent and sibling incest, of course. But that was nothing you could get dispensation for (the Pope actually granted dispensation which included permission for incestuous marriages, although that wasn't actually done in the middle ages unless I'm mistaken)

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But what's courious is that we have confirmation from the faith of the Old Gods and the Growned God, but not from the faith. Except for Maegor-Rhaena. Which is at the very least strange.

The Drowned God seems to have no issue with avuncular marriages, since Victarion actually considers Asha as a potential wife.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Religious reasons.

Yes, and that's my point. The incest taboos of various cultures are weird and irrational and not rooted in empirical knowledge. I mean, the royal dynasties of the middle ages and the early modern times would have rather hanged themselves than married their own cousins and nieces/nephews for generations if they had known that this would reduce fertility, increase the likelihood of birth defects and hereditary disease, etc. The entire point of a royal marriage was to produce heirs for the dynasty. That was literally the function of a royal wife. If anyone had suspected that this kind of thing was bad for procreation, people would have tried to work with sperm donors and the like to ensure that a kingdom had a male heir, rather than risk the well-being of literally everybody if another childless king died, triggering another massive succession war. If you look at contemporary sources nobody cites inbreeding as a reason why this or that inbred Hapsburg king lacked an heir - they blamed god, sin, sorcery, or curses.

And the same also goes for the Persian and Egyptian dynasties which practiced (sibling) incest. They were emulating the gods, not trying to ensure their bloodline would die out.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Since Westeros imitates medieval Europe, I think this is only hypothetical, since it couldn't really be compared to anything, altough we have examples of incestuous royalty on the sibling level from the industrial age. That being said, it all depends on how a Targaryen processes these things up. We can clearly see Egg isn't bothered by the fact that the person that wanted to make him drink love potion was his sister, he was bothered because he didn't find any interest in girls just yet. Later on his life, he has an entirely different take, and that's because he grew up in a drastically different way than Targaryens usually did. I think they are just aren't bothered by it, and the reason they may look at other places is because it's new. On the contrary, you can see people like Daemon, who was most probably fixed on Valyrian looks.

Oh, I certainly think that most Targaryens were more or less happy or okay with the fact that they would eventually marry a sibling ... but that's not what I mean with 'romance'. That's the kind of deep romantic bond we see, I think, most prominently between Jaehaerys-Alysanne and Baelon-Alyssa.

Rhae I'd not view as being 'in love' with Egg - but rather as a scheming little girl who wants to better her place in the marriage game by making her elder brother infatuated with her rather than Daella.

We have to wait and see what shapes Egg's view on the incest thing - I'm sure it will be in part because he simply falls in love with Betha - but I doubt it is going to be some deep insight into the inherent unhealthiness of the practice.

Dynastically and politically Egg's own attempt to arrange other marriages for his children was a huge failure - a problem that would have never arisen if Jaehaerys had been betrothed to Shaera from the start, and Daeron had been set up with Rhaelle rather than Olenna Redwyne. Bringing powerful outsiders with their own agenda into the game can backfire and cause massive problems if their goals and your own don't align.

We also see that problem with Robert-Cersei and, to a much lesser degree, Stannis-Selyse.

In that sense I'd say that the incestuous unions of the Targaryens actually strengthened their hold over the Seven Kingdoms. It allowed them to remain above the great houses, as seemingly neutral, semi-divine outsider kings.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not to mention that it was and is really hard to keep count of your second and third cousins, with a moderate sized extended family, especially when you include cousins and uncles/aunts/nieces/nephews of different generations. In my langauage, there isn't even a way to express 'once removed' or 'twice removed'. Surely, If I think it trough, I realise that my moms uncle is my grand uncle (that would be a literal translation), but at the end of the day I think of him as my uncle, and when I asked my mom who he is to me, she said he's just my uncle, and I also was told that my first cousin's son (of my age) is my cousin (implicating that we are first cousins), but if I want to be more specific, I can call him my second cousin. 

I think such terms did exist in most languages but often fell out of use. In German we do have 'Onkel 2. Grades' (uncle to the second degree) for a cousin once removed but that's usually shortened to 'Onkel', so people often don't realize that's actually the proper term there.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I would say my extended faimily is moderate sized and I don't know the amount of second cousins I have (no times removed), and I surely know people that I don't know are related to me, third cousins or closer. Childhood friend and former classmate as well. Didn't know she was my third cousin until I was 19. And I myself am on the journey to get down the rabbit hole, as of now. Can't tell why, but I just care.

Yeah, third cousins are mostly strangers in these days, unless you really live in an environment where people all live close by and there are feasts where families do meet as a big clan and discuss those kind of things.

But if you look at things then a, say, fourth cousin isn't that distant a relation if you consider your complete family tree.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Just dropping in now. Apologies if I’m repeating things that have already been said.

On the one hand, incest seems to be a metaphor for elitism and narcissism, which is an argument I’ve seen made by people who have read GRRM’s other work. And I think there are quite a few examples of this. Daemon was a dipshit who only wanted to be associated with Valyrian women, and his relationship with Nettles—who does not look Valyrian at all, despite riding a dragon—is portrayed as a saving grace for him (although I don’t really agree with George on that one. Daemon pursued his wife since she was a teenager just to eventually ditch her for another teenager. Not exactly sympathetic in my eyes). Jaehaerys II and Shaera defied their parents and wed, then had their two children wed, forcing their daughter into an abusive marriage and leading to their house’s destruction. Aegon IV wed his sister and treated her like garbage, and his son with his cousin  nearly tore the realm apart when he tried to usurp the throne. 

But as George falls more in love with his characters, the message gets a bit muddled. Naerys suffered at the hands of Aegon, but her love for Aemon is regarded as peak-romance (although George might amend this in FnB II). Alyssa dies young, but I don’t think anyone could call their marriage unhappy. But the biggest one is Jaime. The more I analyze these books, the more I am convinced that GRRM reconceived his image of Jaime (and Sansa) sometime during ACOK. Cersei is written as a narcissist whose love for her twin (and her children) is just an extension of her love for herself. I don’t think you can make the same argument for Jaime. Despite his many admirers, Jaime is faithful to Cersei for the entirety of his relationship, which is not the case for most narcissists, who prioritize their own satisfaction. And unlike Cersei, Jaime doesn’t really have any deep, dark villainous deeds lurking in his past—while Cersei was pushing her friends down wells and threatening old women, Jaime was dreaming of knighthood and cooing over his baby brother. His love for Cersei is written as very genuine, which does undermine the theme a bit.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne are an interesting case. They’re Westeros’ golden couple, and their early years were undoubtedly triumphant. But they caused their mother a world of pain with their selfishness, the Doctrine of Exceptionalism is clearly not something that’s supposed to sit well with the reader, and their later years were not happy. They outlived almost all their children and started a succession crisis that led to civil war and the loss of their dragons. So ultimately, I think they fit the anti-incest pattern. If Jonerys happens in the book, it’ll be interesting to see how it turns out.

As for fans, there definitely is a portion of the fanbase that is. . . enthusiastic about incest, to say the least. I don’t think that what a person enjoys in fiction necessarily reflects on who they are in real life, but some people seem to really be into the idea of “keeping families pure.” You see this a lot with discussions about Sansa, with some people claiming that Sandor or Tyrion or whoever is “too old” while also passionately shipping Sansa with Jon. Because age gaps are bad, but screwing your brother-cousin isn’t? In a weird way, show-Arya not liking Dany because she’s “not family” is representative of a certain subset of fans who are very big on the idea that anyone outside of a character’s house isn’t good enough for them.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Just dropping in now. Apologies if I’m repeating things that have already been said.

On the one hand, incest seems to be a metaphor for elitism and narcissism, which is an argument I’ve seen made by people who have read GRRM’s other work. And I think there are quite a few examples of this. Daemon was a dipshit who only wanted to be associated with Valyrian women, and his relationship with Nettles—who does not look Valyrian at all, despite riding a dragon—is portrayed as a saving grace for him (although I don’t really agree with George on that one. Daemon pursued his wife since she was a teenager just to eventually ditch her for another teenager. Not exactly sympathetic in my eyes). Jaehaerys II and Shaera defied their parents and wed, then had their two children wed, forcing their daughter into an abusive marriage and leading to their house’s destruction. Aegon IV wed his sister and treated her like garbage, and his son with his cousin  nearly tore the realm apart when he tried to usurp the throne. 

But as George falls more in love with his characters, the message gets a bit muddled. Naerys suffered at the hands of Aegon, but her love for Aemon is regarded as peak-romance (although George might amend this in FnB II). Alyssa dies young, but I don’t think anyone could call their marriage unhappy. But the biggest one is Jaime. The more I analyze these books, the more I am convinced that GRRM reconceived his image of Jaime (and Sansa) sometime during ACOK. Cersei is written as a narcissist whose love for her twin (and her children) is just an extension of her love for herself. I don’t think you can make the same argument for Jaime. Despite his many admirers, Jaime is faithful to Cersei for the entirety of his relationship, which is not the case for most narcissists, who prioritize their own satisfaction. And unlike Cersei, Jaime doesn’t really have any deep, dark villainous deeds lurking in his past—while Cersei was pushing her friends down wells and threatening old women, Jaime was dreaming of knighthood and cooing over his baby brother. His love for Cersei is written as very genuine, which does undermine the theme a bit.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne are an interesting case. They’re Westeros’ golden couple, and their early years were undoubtedly triumphant. But they caused their mother a world of pain with their selfishness, the Doctrine of Exceptionalism is clearly not something that’s supposed to sit well with the reader, and their later years were not happy. They outlived almost all their children and started a succession crisis that led to civil war and the loss of their dragons. So ultimately, I think they fit the anti-incest pattern. If Jonerys happens in the book, it’ll be interesting to see how it turns out.

As for fans, there definitely is a portion of the fanbase that is. . . enthusiastic about incest, to say the least. I don’t think that what a person enjoys in fiction necessarily reflects on who they are in real life, but some people seem to really be into the idea of “keeping families pure.” You see this a lot with discussions about Sansa, with some people claiming that Sandor or Tyrion or whoever is “too old” while also passionately shipping Sansa with Jon. Because age gaps are bad, but screwing your brother-cousin isn’t? In a weird way, show-Arya not liking Dany because she’s “not family” is representative of a certain subset of fans who are very big on the idea that anyone outside of a character’s house isn’t good enough for them.

Some readers adopt uncritically , the aristocratic points of view of the majority of the characters.  So, they see people like Tyrion, Xaro, Hizdahr, Tywin etc. as the voices of wisdom, rather than people whose arguments are almost entirely self-serving. “Keeping families pure” is a part of that.

[The Bard of Banefort]

35 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Some readers adopt uncritically , the aristocratic points of view of the majority of the characters.  So, they see people like Tyrion, Xaro, Hizdahr, Tywin etc. as the voices of wisdom, rather than people whose arguments are almost entirely self-serving. “Keeping families pure” is a part of that.

I think part of it is also GRRM’s habit of having houses have the same appearances/traits for thousands of years. Even I think it’s a pretty cool aspect of the story. But it seems to have led to some fans to develop an eerily anti-miscegenist mindset.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Just dropping in now. Apologies if I’m repeating things that have already been said.

On the one hand, incest seems to be a metaphor for elitism and narcissism, which is an argument I’ve seen made by people who have read GRRM’s other work.

I don't think it is so much a metaphor for that ... but rather taking the real world element of royal incest/inbreeding and including it as he did with so many other real world elements. It is clear that the inbreeding among the elites is effectively, well, elitist by default ... but we should not make the mistake to view Targaryen incest as a moral jugment by the author.

Just as it would be silly to follow, say, with the modern view of aristocratic inbreeding as 'degeneracy' or the seemingly childish fashion style of the Ancien Regime as something that perfectly embodies that decadence of that society.

In relation to ancient royal sibling incest we don't really know why they were doing this. Chances are that it had more to do with religion than real world economic or political power grabs. A pharaoh did have a harem, after all, but the preferred Great Royal Wife was (in certain eras) a sister-wife.

George's other works often revolve around incest or inbreeding, but mostly in relation to entire populations - 'Dark, Dark Were the Tunnels' & 'In the House of the Worm' most prominently - where the moral of the tale is that artificially limiting your gene pool can have disastrous or at least problematic results for the larger population and the survival of the civilization/species. It also includes the kind of naive early SF notion that proper 'breeding programs' for a population can resolve real world problems.

He does that kind of thing better in the Thousands Worlds stories where actually eugenics are portrayed - after all, if you clone and change the makeup of people then you should be able to solve problems better than with an idea like 'if you only recombined the severed halves everything will be fine again'.

I think the best depiction of inbreeding is in The Skin Trade where you effectively see aristocratic inbreeding both as the only reasonable thing to do if you want to take and hold on to power ... while also seeing that it has bad consequences that may undercut and destroy what you gained in the long(er) run.

Marrying within the werewolf families ensures that wealth and power are preserved and increased. Both mundane wealth and power as well as the power of the werewolf since inbred wolves have a chance to be the most impressive, most powerful specimen. But, like with real world inbreeding, that's true for only half or an even smaller percentage of the offspring. There are big hits to gained that way, but also very bad misses. That is something this story portrays much better than ASoIaF since we have essentially no (or very few) proper 'Targaryen freaks'. I mean offspring suffering from severe birth defects and hereditary diseases. Half the Targaryens could easily enough have been freaks who only left the castle in closed litters and who were mostly kept away from the public.

If you mate with outsiders as a werewolf the special gift grows weaker and, presumably, disappears eventually. No problem if you don't care about that ... but if you want to hold on to that kind of thing then you have to try the incest thing.

Similarly, I think ASoIaF depicts the incest Targaryens better than 'normal monarchy' in the sense that intermarrying with very powerful and ambitious nobility has a greater potential for power struggles and civil wars than a royal family which doesn't include too many outsiders.

George could have portrayed that also by having the Targaryens intermarry with foreign royalty from Essos and elsewhere - like many European monarchy married foreign princesses - but he chose to go with the incest thing. In this world, though, the message is clear that if you make a Lannister or a Tyrell your queen you might be putting yourself and your family in mortal danger.

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And I think there are quite a few examples of this. Daemon was a dipshit who only wanted to be associated with Valyrian women, and his relationship with Nettles—who does not look Valyrian at all, despite riding a dragon—is portrayed as a saving grace for him (although I don’t really agree with George on that one. Daemon pursued his wife since she was a teenager just to eventually ditch her for another teenager. Not exactly sympathetic in my eyes). Jaehaerys II and Shaera defied their parents and wed, then had their two children wed, forcing their daughter into an abusive marriage and leading to their house’s destruction. Aegon IV wed his sister and treated her like garbage, and his son with his cousin  nearly tore the realm apart when he tried to usurp the throne. 

Daemon certainly seems to have had a thing for Valyrian women - but then, thanks to the Targaryens, Valyrian looks would have been viewed as the epitome of beauty in Westeros. There is a reason why the Velaryon brides of the Targaryen princes all are the very embodiment of Valyrian beauty (especially Daenaera).

While Aegon IV's treatment of Naerys is pretty fucked-up - this could also be a king treating his non-sister-wife in such a fashion. But it is certainly worse that she is his sister.

Aerys and Rhaella are a tragedy but we have to get more information how any why their marriage came about. In general I'd not make a big difference between arranged incestuous marriages (especially not the way Alysanne did it) and arranged marriages between unrelated spouses. Both can work out, and if you pair siblings or relations who like each other it is more likely to work out than if the parents make a contract and the children are forced to go through with it without having any say in the matter (Stannis-Selyse, Jon-Lysa, Jaime-Lysa spring to mind).

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

But as George falls more in love with his characters, the message gets a bit muddled. Naerys suffered at the hands of Aegon, but her love for Aemon is regarded as peak-romance (although George might amend this in FnB II). Alyssa dies young, but I don’t think anyone could call their marriage unhappy.

I think George doesn't really view incestuous love as better or worse than 'normal love'. It is just love when it is love. Of course, the practice of incestuous marriage in a family is fucked up, but not necessarily the individual relationship.

That's also my view on the matter. I think incest shouldn't be a criminal offense if it is consensual, and I think the possible abuse in an incestuous relationship can be dealt with with the provisions against sexual abuse, etc. without criminalizing incestuous acts separately (especially since that also punishes the abused party in quite a few countries).

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

But the biggest one is Jaime. The more I analyze these books, the more I am convinced that GRRM reconceived his image of Jaime (and Sansa) sometime during ACOK. Cersei is written as a narcissist whose love for her twin (and her children) is just an extension of her love for herself. I don’t think you can make the same argument for Jaime. Despite his many admirers, Jaime is faithful to Cersei for the entirety of his relationship, which is not the case for most narcissists, who prioritize their own satisfaction. And unlike Cersei, Jaime doesn’t really have any deep, dark villainous deeds lurking in his past—while Cersei was pushing her friends down wells and threatening old women, Jaime was dreaming of knighthood and cooing over his baby brother. His love for Cersei is written as very genuine, which does undermine the theme a bit.

I think Jaime is almost as much - or more - a narcissist as Cersei - especially in his egotism and his unwillingness to follow the standard aristocratic values (family and dynasty first, everything else behind). Jaime is most obsessed with his own public image, how he looks in the eyes of the world ... he doesn't care about House Lannister the way Tywin, Tyrion, even Cersei do.

Cersei is certainly the uglier person, considering murder at a much earlier age than Jaime, etc. ... but she still puts the dynastical interests of her children before her own. She wants Joff to be king, wants him to rule. She also wants to ensure Tommen keeps his throne and she wants to protect him from his enemies. She also thinks he cannot do this on his own yet, which is why she thinks she has to do it ... but it is not only a power grab. Cersei also has had enough of men telling her what to do, but she doesn't use her children (only) as pawns so she can be in charge.

In any case - we shouldn't view Cersei-Jaime as part of an 'incest culture' because they aren't. They are twin siblings who are very much in love with each other - on every level. As fucked as it sounds, their love for each other is, perhaps, the most noble or humane thing about them.

After all, even if the romantic desire cooled down, even if Jaime and Cersei ended up no longer desiring each other - they would still be twin siblings. It would be very hard - inhuman, even - if they decided the other person no longer existed for them. You see how strong that bond especially in Cersei is. How she thinks about Jaime whenever she is in any real danger. On her part, nothing is gone. And with Jaime it is all quite opaque. We don't know exactly how he feels about her at the moment.

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

As for fans, there definitely is a portion of the fanbase that is. . . enthusiastic about incest, to say the least. I don’t think that what a person enjoys in fiction necessarily reflects on who they are in real life, but some people seem to really be into the idea of “keeping families pure.” You see this a lot with discussions about Sansa, with some people claiming that Sandor or Tyrion or whoever is “too old” while also passionately shipping Sansa with Jon. Because age gaps are bad, but screwing your brother-cousin isn’t? In a weird way, show-Arya not liking Dany because she’s “not family” is representative of a certain subset of fans who are very big on the idea that anyone outside of a character’s house isn’t good enough for them.

Never got into that shipping nonsense that was inspired by the show. The problem of Sandor isn't so much the age gap, though (although he certainly is too old for her) but also his personality.

I think Dany-Jon is not going to dwell on the incest stuff too long. If Jon wants to be coy I think he should call Dany 'Aunty Daenerys' whenever he wants to reference her apparent seniority due to their actual kinship (in this context one also wonders whether Aemon ever called Jocelyn 'aunt' in their relationship). But I guess neither is going to be aware how exactly they are related when they fall for each other ... so this would simply be a non-issue.

If they know that they are aunt and nephew by the time they first meet, then this is likely going to be a positive quality in Jon for Daenerys. She certainly would like a Targaryen husband, after all. For Jon I don't know since we don't know how attraction to your aunt is viewed in this world. It is certainly not as anathema as sibling incest, so it shouldn't be a big deal. And they didn't grow up together or anything.

 

[Angel Eyes]

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Never got into that shipping nonsense that was inspired by the show. The problem of Sandor isn't so much the age gap, though (although he certainly is too old for her) but also his personality.

I think Dany-Jon is not going to dwell on the incest stuff too long. If Jon wants to be coy I think he should call Dany 'Aunty Daenerys' whenever he wants to reference her apparent seniority due to their actual kinship (in this context one also wonders whether Aemon ever called Jocelyn 'aunt' in their relationship). But I guess neither is going to be aware how exactly they are related when they fall for each other ... so this would simply be a non-issue.

If they know that they are aunt and nephew by the time they first meet, then this is likely going to be a positive quality in Jon for Daenerys. She certainly would like a Targaryen husband, after all. For Jon I don't know since we don't know how attraction to your aunt is viewed in this world. It is certainly not as anathema as sibling incest, so it shouldn't be a big deal. And they didn't grow up together or anything.

 

The shipping has gone on for longer than the show's been around, though in the case of Jon and Sansa it intensified considerably from 2016 onward coinciding with Season 6 when they were reunited and they were revealed to be cousins.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

The shipping has gone on for longer than the show's been around, though in the case of Jon and Sansa it intensified considerably from 2016 onward coinciding with Season 6 when they were reunited and they were revealed to be cousins.

Oh, shipping in general, yes. And I certainly also am kind of a Dany-Jon shipper, but basically only because the blue flower on the ice wall business from the House of the Undying.

But Sansa-Jon was not a thing prior to the GoT nonsense. There was some Arya-Jon stuff in the wake of the original outline leaking, but nothing really prominent prior to that. After all, Arya is way too young for a proper romantic relationship and they love each other as siblings and weren't brought up in an incest culture.

So that's basically all nonsense.

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, shipping in general, yes. And I certainly also am kind of a Dany-Jon shipper, but basically only because the blue flower on the ice wall business from the House of the Undying.

But Sansa-Jon was not a thing prior to the GoT nonsense. There was some Arya-Jon stuff in the wake of the original outline leaking, but nothing really prominent prior to that. After all, Arya is way too young for a proper romantic relationship and they love each other as siblings and weren't brought up in an incest culture.

So that's basically all nonsense.

I beg to differ; this search from Archive Of Our Own with Jon/Sansa stories (of which there are almost 8000) has 2008 as its earliest entry. So it predates the show by about three years.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I beg to differ; this search from Archive Of Our Own with Jon/Sansa stories (of which there are almost 8000) has 2008 as its earliest entry. So it predates the show by about three years.

Oh, I just meant here on the boards. I guess the possibility popped up occasionally, but in slash fiction circles that pairing must have been one of many that popped pretty early.

[Daeron the Daring]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If avuncular marriages were frowned upon or an issue then I think the match between Jocelyn Baratheon and Prince Aemon would have caused problems ... both with the Baratheons as well as the Faith and the Realm in general. Jocelyn was the half-sister of the king and queen ... but she was not the blood of the dragon (in a meaningful or confirmed sense) and should thus not be included in the Doctrine of Exceptionalism.

I am aware of Aemon's situation, but I think the Doctrine of Exceptionalism applies when one of them is 'exceptional'. It would be far more logical, practical and simple as well.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I certainly think that most Targaryens were more or less happy or okay with the fact that they would eventually marry a sibling ... but that's not what I mean with 'romance'. That's the kind of deep romantic bond we see, I think, most prominently between Jaehaerys-Alysanne and Baelon-Alyssa.

I never found it too much, especially in the light of so much bad ones coming with it.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't have a parallel to papal dispensation, etc. in Westeros, since there are no religious laws/customs restricting marriages among kin. Aside from parent and sibling incest, of course.

I think this should very much be a thing. The concept of incest should be a very clearly established situation, as it is a common matter with Targaryens doin it all the time.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Drowned God seems to have no issue with avuncular marriages, since Victarion actually considers Asha as a potential wife.

Just what I said.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhae I'd not view as being 'in love' with Egg - but rather as a scheming little girl who wants to better her place in the marriage game by making her elder brother infatuated with her rather than Daella.

Agreed, the opposite isn't the point I wanted to make.

 

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have to wait and see what shapes Egg's view on the incest thing - I'm sure it will be in part because he simply falls in love with Betha - but I doubt it is going to be some deep insight into the inherent unhealthiness of the practice.

It will most likely challange his morality, seeing that casual people (up to high nobility) view this as a bad thing, and are most likely still viewing this as a bad thing in the case of the Targaryens (for their own selfish reasons of course).

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, third cousins are mostly strangers in these days, unless you really live in an environment where people all live close by and there are feasts where families do meet as a big clan and discuss those kind of things.

But if you look at things then a, say, fourth cousin isn't that distant a relation if you consider your complete family tree.

Actually, I have a single second cousin I didn't know of. And even in this case, I knew his father is first cousin with my dad, I just didn't know if he had a child and who that person is. A generation older than me, lives abroad, never seen or talked to him. 

In my case tho, this is heavily affected by past conflicts. There are just certain people of my extended family I couldn't really hear about because of that. You know, because people don't like to talk about that. 

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But if you look at things then a, say, fourth cousin isn't that distant a relation if you consider your complete family tree.

Yes, but the big gap really comes in when you have parents who didn't ever meet (some of) their grandparents, and as such, these things can completely miss you. And that is quite common, because my great- and great-great grandparent are the generations that lived through WW1 and WW2.

The most complete image of my family tree from the paternal side I got from my grandfather. It was homework in 4th grade to do a research. I come from a small town where about a thousand people live. The amount of people i am related to, fourth cousin or closer, is crazy, even tho my paternal ancestors moved there in the late 19th century. And then there are also the neighbouring towns (which has a bigger importance in my case, since I live in a minority, and people tend to marry people of their own nationality more than not, making minorities a little isolated, especially during communism).

[Victor Newman]

On 7/2/2022 at 4:19 AM, Zzz_243 said:

So, we know that in ancient times marriage between relatives was common. However I'm a bit puzzled on how incest is depicted in ASOIAF. Like, we see a lot of people really excited about the idea of banging their own sister/brother. Plus, I can understand relationship between cousins (which was accepted even in relatively recent times, for example Albert Einstein married his own cousin), less between siblings, or even dads/daughters, which is apparently the norm in this world (even tho we see many characters despise it). What do you think?

Go farther back and the ancestors of mankind had to have engaged in incest.  It is just one of the many tools GRRM uses for shock value.  It was not enough to have the Targaryens engage in incest in their history.  He had to up the stakes and have twins engage in incest, Jaime and Cersei.  GRRM will have the Stark Direwolves mating very soon and that itself is incest. 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

To be fair to the Jonsa shippers, the show is definitely partially to blame for trying to emphasis how Jon was mini-Ned and Sansa was mini-Cat. The showrunners apparently forgot that Ned and Cat were married.