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Formula 1 2022


williamjm
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8 hours ago, lmanion said:

Removal of constructors points in the current season on some sort of scale, 10-20 points per million over the cap. If they don't take some serious action it will end up like financial fair play in football where certain clubs just scam the system because they can and have gotten away with it.

Why would you take constructor's points for the current season when rules were broken last season? Also, why not take drivers' points as well? Did their results not benefit from more money being spent on making their cars better?

The rules already allow drivers points being deducted from all the races that were affected by team breaking the cap. It's just that no one wants to have a title decided that way, especially not almost a year after the fact. If, for example, McLaren did the same, I'm certain Ricciardo and Norris would have points deducted. I don't know if it would be 10-20 per million over the cap or whatever, but I doubt F1 would miss an opportunity to make an example of them.

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The amount that Red Bull has breached the cap could be as high as $7 million (down from the $12 million in the rumours), though the final figure looks more likely to be be below $5 million. However, Ferrari have noted that around $3 million is their entire in-season development budget, so even that amount can easily swing the entire season.

Retrospectively removing Max's championship seems unlikely, but a points penalty for this year may get more traction, especially if it introduces drama into the final few races (as the FIA so loves). Also, development of this year's car mostly took place last year under last year's budget cap, so there is still validity in punishing this year's results for last year's overspend.

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$3 million definitely isn't Ferrari's development budget. I think the figure is from Mercedes, and it's what they spend on upgrade parts. (My understanding is it's the manufacturing cost of these parts.) And of course they could spend $5 million if they cut cost elsewhere. The budget cap doesn't cover anywhere near all of the team's expenses to begin with. 

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-cost-cap-what-is-it-how-it-works/10379799/

Red Bull's "overspending" is probably the result of a dispute over what expenses fall under the cap and what don't. 

 

ETA: Mercedes spent about £300 million in 2021 according to their financial report.

Edited by Loge
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The materiality of the breach seems low, which also makes it look unintentional rather than cynical.  And it’s a bit rich for Mercedes and Ferrari, with their many years of spending advantage over most (all?) teams, to complain so vehemently.

I doubt a retroactive change to the already controversial 2021 WDC is on the cards.  It could be applied to 2022, especially since development budget last year had more benefit in racing this year.  And it conveniently allows F1 to defer MV’s WDC for 2022 and have another finale.

Edited by Iskaral Pust
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  • 2 weeks later...

Still no final verdict or deal over the (alleged) overspending. Meanwhile, Dietrich Mateschitz has died. There had been talk about his deteriorating health before, when the deal with Porsche was called off. One has to wonder what this means for the future of the F1 team. Marko is quite old, too, and one has to wonder how much clout he has left with Mateschitz gone.

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I fully understand why Mercedes and Ferrari are complaining so loudly; they know they would have had a competitive advantage if they could have spent more just like they have in the past, so for one team to be able to overspend and then possibly walk away with a slap on the wrist means the budget cap rules are ineffectual.

If they land in a decision that RB has overspent and should be punished, the penalty needs to be severe enough to dissuade Mercedes and Ferrari from also overspending. IMO the sanest course of action would be to suspend the RB team from one of the remaining GP weekends this year, preferably Mexico or Brazil. It won't affect their existing titles so you don't get any weirdness with that, but if you look at a season like 2021 it would have been a big hit to their title hopes had it happened in that season. So no team would want to risk their 202x title being lost from overspending in the past, and as such would be a strong deterrent against overspending.

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8 hours ago, Loge said:

Still no final verdict or deal over the (alleged) overspending. Meanwhile, Dietrich Mateschitz has died. There had been talk about his deteriorating health before, when the deal with Porsche was called off. One has to wonder what this means for the future of the F1 team. Marko is quite old, too, and one has to wonder how much clout he has left with Mateschitz gone.

Now I feel compelled to post another RIH message in another thread (check German Austrian Politics). Mateschitz was a nasty piece of work.

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It looks like it might turn into a pedestrian race after Sainz's early exit but it definitely livened up at the race went on. I'm impressed Alonso was able to keep going and even score some points after that accident. Verstappen clearly the fastest driver on the day (although perhaps not one of his more dominant races), but the pit stop debacle did give him a lot of work to do. It's a pity Vettel also had pit stop problems when he had been driving really well. Hamilton came the closest to a victory he has managed this year but couldn't quite keep up the pace in the last few laps.

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Good race.  That’s quite a good track for racing but the long straight does reward raw speed too much.  But definitely better than the street circuits in Miami and soon Las Vegas, despite their glamour.

It’s crazy that Verstappen has 13 wins now from so few pole positions.  The Ferrari looked very fast in qualifying but the grid penalty, a sluggish start and George Russell nixed the competition by the first turn.

Russell has been at fault for too many collisions this year and hasn’t seen enough reprimand.  Five second penalties are not deterring him.  He’s not at Stroll’s level though.  

Verstappen had a scare with that long pit stop but rallied well.

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So we have a deal between FIA and Red Bull on the cost cap. Red Bull have accepted a penalty of $7 million (which doesn't count against the cap) and a 10% reduction of their wind tunnel time for 2023. And of course, the overspending was on stuff like catering and benefits for employees on sick leave, not car development.

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5 hours ago, Loge said:

So we have a deal between FIA and Red Bull on the cost cap. Red Bull have accepted a penalty of $7 million (which doesn't count against the cap) and a 10% reduction of their wind tunnel time for 2023. And of course, the overspending was on stuff like catering and benefits for employees on sick leave, not car development.

Personal opinion without any other basis:  Overspending on your employees' benefits should be rewarded, not penalized.

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3 hours ago, williamjm said:

That's still fewer changes of name than what is now Alpine.

With Alpine it is just name changes, not, "I'm going to be factory team for manufacturer 'X' this year" because ownership stakes are changing hands. And don't forget that they were just "Sauber" for a number of those years. 

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13 hours ago, Loge said:

So we have a deal between FIA and Red Bull on the cost cap. Red Bull have accepted a penalty of $7 million (which doesn't count against the cap) and a 10% reduction of their wind tunnel time for 2023. And of course, the overspending was on stuff like catering and benefits for employees on sick leave, not car development.

But the other teams that didn't spend that extra on catering and sick leave would have to pay for those things while staying under the cost cap, which logically means cutting somewhere else. Unless the overspend is for a truly trivial amount like $100, any amount of overspend creates the room for a team to gain an advantage on track because they free up that amount elsewhere in the budget.

That's why it is critical that the penalty is harsh enough to dissuade all the other teams from strategically overspending.

If you look at a team like Mercedes or Ferrari, or even McLaren and Alpine, if push comes to shove do you think a $7 million fine that is explicitly excluded from the cost cap and 10% less wind tunnel time is enough to keep them from doing that overspend to maybe move up a spot in the WCC?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I missed today's qualifying session so was a bit surprised to read a preview of tomorrow's sprint race starting off by wondering whether Kevin Magnussen can convert his first pole position. It sounds like it was more due to good strategic timing rather than outright pace but still one of Haas's best moments in F1.

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4 minutes ago, williamjm said:

I missed today's qualifying session so was a bit surprised to read a preview of tomorrow's sprint race starting off by wondering whether Kevin Magnussen can convert his first pole position. It sounds like it was more due to good strategic timing rather than outright pace but still one of Haas's best moments in F1.

Well-timed, as it's Gene Haas's 70th birthday today.

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Outstanding race and very well-deserved win for Russell.

Verstappen spitting his dummy out and behaving like a prick right at the end, despite having the championship sowed up several races ago, and refusing to help his team mate secure his place in the championship showed a profound lack of class on his part.

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