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Formula 1 2022


williamjm
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3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Outstanding race and very well-deserved win for Russell.

Ham only got one race left to fulfill 1 min/year streak *sniff*

And I'll have Goatifi for dinner if he tries another assist -_-

With Chianti

5 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Verstappen spitting his dummy out and behaving like a prick right at the end, despite having the championship sowed up several races ago, and refusing to help his team mate secure his place in the championship showed a profound lack of class on his part.

That and Charles begging his Spanish namesake, lmao

 

 

 

 

WHAT A FRICKING WEEKEND!

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25 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Outstanding race and very well-deserved win for Russell.

Verstappen spitting his dummy out and behaving like a prick right at the end, despite having the championship sowed up several races ago, and refusing to help his team mate secure his place in the championship showed a profound lack of class on his part.

What's the explanation for Mercedes' sudden performance gain? I only caught the highlights but it looks like Mercedes cars led most if not all the laps today. Plus Russell got the fastest lap of the race.

I mean, they've shown pretty steady improvement this season but nothing like this. Have they found the magic formula with their car or is it down to a lack of performance from the other teams WRT cost caps and such? Plus, I thought Mercedes was dealing with a bit of a power deficit (all the Mercedes powered cars were down on straight line speed at the start of the season) and Sao Paulo is a bit of a power circuit.  

Yeah, that was pretty selfish on the part of Max. He ignored team orders and may have cost them a silver medal in the 2022 WC and for what? 6th place in Brazil? C'mon. 

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2 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

What's the explanation for Mercedes' sudden performance gain? I only caught the highlights but it looks like Mercedes cars led most if not all the laps today. Plus Russell got the fastest lap of the race.

I mean, they've shown pretty steady improvement this season but nothing like this. Have they found the magic formula with their car or is it down to a lack of performance from the other teams WRT cost caps and such? Plus, I thought Mercedes was dealing with a bit of a power deficit (all the Mercedes powered cars were down on straight line speed at the start of the season) and Sao Paulo is a bit of a power circuit.  

Hard to say. The altitude might have still been boosting Mercedes and penalising Red Bull, but the offset is nothing like as extreme as Mexico City, where Merc wasn't as strong (and Ferrari suffered much more than Red Bull, but were much stronger today).

Red Bull have probably halted all development in favour of next year, whilst Mercedes are still pushing to the end. There's also the "understanding the upgrades" thing, where Merc introduced a bunch of upgrades later in the season and have finally worked out how to switch them on (which sometimes takes 2-4 races) and they've proven devastatingly effective.

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It was a well-deserved first victory for George Russell, he seemed to do everything right in both the sprint and the main race. I think it's likely to be the first of many.

I think it's fair to say Perez isn't too happy about what Verstappen did, and Verstappen's refusal to talk about it is definitely odd.

 

Edited by williamjm
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31 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

for what? 6th place in Brazil? C'mon. 


Not that it justifies his action, but it seems pretty clear it wasn't about the place but a personal problem he thinks he has with Perez.
I think even more of an issue than the move itself is just the way he spoke to his team. Not just like he's the boss, but like a shit boss you wouldn't wanna work under. 

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19 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Hard to say. The altitude might have still been boosting Mercedes and penalising Red Bull, but the offset is nothing like as extreme as Mexico City, where Merc wasn't as strong (and Ferrari suffered much more than Red Bull, but were much stronger today).

Red Bull have probably halted all development in favour of next year, whilst Mercedes are still pushing to the end. There's also the "understanding the upgrades" thing, where Merc introduced a bunch of upgrades later in the season and have finally worked out how to switch them on (which sometimes takes 2-4 races) and they've proven devastatingly effective.

According to Racer.com, no one brought updates to Brazil. It looks like everyone is focusing on next year.

https://racer.com/2022/11/11/technical-updates-sao-paulo-gp/

Sao Paulo is only 760m above sea level. Not really high enough for altitude to play a major factor. 

I think you might have a point about, "understanding the upgrades". Mercedes have been working on their car all season and it look like it's starting to come together for them.

It might also have something to do with engine supply. Ferrari have obviously had some issues earlier in the year and I thought I heard something about Red Bull burning through their Honda engines faster than anticipated. If Mercedes put fresh or low-milage engines in their cars this weekend, that might have contributed. 

Or it may just be as simple as Max and Charles taking themselves out of contention with their respective on-track dramas. They were both looking pretty racy up to that point.

5 minutes ago, polishgenius said:


Not that it justifies his action, but it seems pretty clear it wasn't about the place but a personal problem he thinks he has with Perez.
I think even more of an issue than the move itself is just the way he spoke to his team. Not just like he's the boss, but like a shit boss you wouldn't wanna work under. 

That's a good way to find yourself driving a Haas in a couple of years. Red Bull is not a team known for being nostalgic about their driver lineups.

Someone should educate Max on Fernando Alonso's lone year with McLaren and the consequences of extreme not-being-a-team-player. I can't imagine Max is very popular in that garage right now. 

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1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

That's a good way to find yourself driving a Haas in a couple of years. Red Bull is not a team known for being nostalgic about their driver lineups.

Someone should educate Max on Fernando Alonso's lone year with McLaren and the consequences of extreme not-being-a-team-player. I can't imagine Max is very popular in that garage right now. 

There is absolutely zero chance that Red Bull will drop Max. Max is in the Vettel 2011-13 mindset of knowing he's effectively the king of the castle and he has tremendous latitude to do whatever the fuck he wants. It doesn't help that Red Bull fosters this mindset by making it clear who's their #1 driver and who's the #2 and who will get priority in all situations.

If Perez rinses him next year (as Ricciardo did to Vettel in 2014, dropping his stock with the team like an absolute stone) that will change very quickly, but I don't think that's hugely likely. With McLaren, they realised they had two AAA-tier drivers in the team so could boot Alonso and still win races and championships with Hamilton (a decision immediately justified the following year), whilst Red Bull has never been in that position apart from one year (2010), and they immediately halted any chance of that happening again by prioritising Vettel for development and updates. If Red Bull didn't have Max (or a comparable talent whom they've built the team around) in the car this or last year, they're not winning either championship.

He's being an absolute dickhead because he knows he will get away with it.

ETA: Apparently the smart money is saying this was "payback" for Perez crashing in Monaco and denying Max a shot at pole. That's bizarre because it's not a given that Perez did that on purpose (it might have been but it seems a tad ruthless for a driver who's always been a keen team player), it made zero impact to the championship and it was clearly going to make zero difference at the time. Max has now said he'll support Perez in the final race. Perez seems bemused by the situation.

Edited by Werthead
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28 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There is absolutely zero chance that Red Bull will drop Max. Max is in the Vettel 2011-13 mindset of knowing he's effectively the king of the castle and he has tremendous latitude to do whatever the fuck he wants. It doesn't help that Red Bull fosters this mindset by making it clear who's their #1 driver and who's the #2 and who will get priority in all situations.

If Perez rinses him next year (as Ricciardo did to Vettel in 2014, dropping his stock with the team like an absolute stone) that will change very quickly, but I don't think that's hugely likely. With McLaren, they realised they had two AAA-tier drivers in the team so could boot Alonso and still win races and championships with Hamilton (a decision immediately justified the following year), whilst Red Bull has never been in that position apart from one year (2010), and they immediately halted any chance of that happening again by prioritising Vettel for development and updates. If Red Bull didn't have Max (or a comparable talent whom they've built the team around) in the car this or last year, they're not winning either championship.

This is all correct. I'm also reminded of some of his sketchball antics at the end of last season. And let's not forget that he won his first title under controversial circumstances. In short, Max can be a bit of a brat. Other drivers are taking notice.

I'm also reminded of how Max Biaggi exited MotoGP. I would argue that he was a more naturally talented rider than Rossi (maybe the most naturally talented racer of all time), but he lacked the mental toughness that comes with tons of early success and a lack of experience. Forget, "rent free"; Rossi was able to climb into his head and build a condo there. 

When does George Russell's contract at Mercedes expire? I'm sure Alonso wouldn't mind a crack at that Red Bull. It wouldn't be the first time a pile of cash was involved to transfer a drivers contract. 

38 minutes ago, Werthead said:

He's being an absolute dickhead because he knows he will get away with it.

Yup.

38 minutes ago, Werthead said:

ETA: Apparently the smart money is saying this was "payback" for Perez crashing in Monaco and denying Max a shot at pole. That's bizarre because it's not a given that Perez did that on purpose (it might have been but it seems a tad ruthless for a driver who's always been a keen team player), it made zero impact to the championship and it was clearly going to make zero difference at the time. Max has now said he'll support Perez in the final race. Perez seems bemused by the situation.

Yeah, I read the same thing. It's insane if it's true. 

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For reference, this is Monaco qualifying from 2022. I see nothing to suggest this was intentional. The Ferrari spinning at the same place was probably the result of seeing a car blocking the track and intentionally throwing it into a spin. But the Alpine going off at almost the same time suggests it may have been spitting rain in places or a car had dropped some fluid on the track. 

Max is out of his mind. 

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15 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

When does George Russell's contract at Mercedes expire? I'm sure Alonso wouldn't mind a crack at that Red Bull. It wouldn't be the first time a pile of cash was involved to transfer a drivers contract. 

True. Red Bull does have more options outside the team than they did in 2011-13. Alonso, Russell, Hamilton, Leclerc and Norris are all in that same elite bracket as Verstappen or close to it, and Sainz, Bottas and Vettel are all very solidly in the tier behind them who could perhaps win the WC if the car was outstanding enough and they could get on terms with it quickly (not a given). Although out of the top tier maybe only Norris is a realistic get, they'd have to pay all of the other teams an obscene amount of money to get them out of their contracts.

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At the next race in Abu Dhabi, Every driver should finish all their radio communications, "Are we clear about that?"

How fucking amazing would it be if McLaren and RBR announced a Lando-Max driver swap next year?

"That's what you get for talking down to our race engineers. Eugene is absolutely beside himself.*"

* I don't know the guys name. It just came to me. 

 

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

True. Red Bull does have more options outside the team than they did in 2011-13. Alonso, Russell, Hamilton, Leclerc and Norris are all in that same elite bracket as Verstappen or close to it, and Sainz, Bottas and Vettel are all very solidly in the tier behind them who could perhaps win the WC if the car was outstanding enough and they could get on terms with it quickly (not a given). Although out of the top tier maybe only Norris is a realistic get, they'd have to pay all of the other teams an obscene amount of money to get them out of their contracts.

Depending on how reliable the reported numbers are; between the drivers salary and perks plus the moneys paid to various stakeholders to sort out the contract mess, Jean Alesi may have been the most expensive F1 driver in history when he went to Ferrari in 1991. 

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17 hours ago, Werthead said:

True. Red Bull does have more options outside the team than they did in 2011-13. Alonso, Russell, Hamilton, Leclerc and Norris are all in that same elite bracket as Verstappen or close to it, and Sainz, Bottas and Vettel are all very solidly in the tier behind them who could perhaps win the WC if the car was outstanding enough and they could get on terms with it quickly (not a given). Although out of the top tier maybe only Norris is a realistic get, they'd have to pay all of the other teams an obscene amount of money to get them out of their contracts.

I think you are underestimating Verstappen's quality. There's a reason why it was him who knocked Hamilton of his throne, you know? Russell and Sainz have one each, Norris has none. The cars they're driving are a factor, and they all have great potential but they still have a lot to prove before they can be put in the same bracket as two-time world champion.

Leclerc imploded the moment the pressure came (though, part of the blame lies with Ferrari, too). He's repeatedly shown he doesn't have the "killer instinct", "the edge" or whatever we choose to call it that it takes to become world champion. Bottas is a great #2 driver and I'd love to see him winning the title with Red Bull but I just don't see it.

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Leclerc absolutely does have killer instinct/mentality to be world champion. The way he drove out Vettel from Ferrari was ruthless. Arguably that wasn't prime Vettel, but rather a washed up version going through the motions. But Leclerc really was ruthless in that competition. What he lacks imho is in racing IQ. His decission making isn't in WC category. Hamilton is (much) better at it than Verstappen, but Leclerc is decisively worse than either of them.

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Yeah, I'm sure he was a killer back in go-cart as well. It's what he's doing this season that counts and this season he's been very timid, he's taken every single stupid decision from Ferrari without even raising an objection and when he finally had a good enough car to actually compete (at least for half a season) he bottled it. So, no, he doesn't have a mentality to be world champion. He doesn't even have the mentality to be a clear-cut #1 driver in the team.

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That attitude from Max was terrible, regardless of what reason he thinks he has.  Even if he isn’t a decent human or teammate, he should at least be thinking strategically like a champion and nurturing a supportive second driver relationship.

Hamilton (yet again) got an inexplicably favorable ruling on his collision with Verstappen.  Over my on-again, off-again years of following F1, it seems like English drivers receive a systematic bias from the stewards and media.

Russell did well to claim a win.  He’s finishing comfortably ahead of Hamilton in just his first year in the car.

Mercedes’ improvement this weekend was pretty ominous.  I know the altitude assist was cited in Mexico but that’s two years in a row they’ve suddenly been more competitive than expected in Brazil (IIRC last year it was expected that RB would have an advantage on that track).

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22 hours ago, baxus said:

I think you are underestimating Verstappen's quality.

Alain Prost, a strong candidate for F1 GOAT, got sacked twice for publicly badmouthing his team (Renault in '83 and Ferrari in '91). The same thing might have happened with McLaren in '89, but he was already on his way out, having signed with Ferrari.

At the 1984 Italian GP, Toleman didn't allow Senna (another probable GOAT) to drive because of a contract dispute involving his signing with Lotus for '85.

The problem isn't just that Max jeopardized 1-2 in the drivers championship, which RB probably wants more than a win right now because they've never achieved the former and have plenty of the latter. It's the way he defied those team orders. Stupidly, disrespectfully, and publicly.  As was stated before on this thread, "Like a shitty boss". All apparently over some insane speculation of Checo wrecking his qualifying in Monaco. 

No one is irreplaceable.

 

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?
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9 hours ago, baxus said:

He doesn't even have the mentality to be a clear-cut #1 driver in the team.

 

 

Well, to be fair, neither does Lewis Hamilton. :P




In seriousness, I think Leclerc is making fixable errors. Not too dissimilar to what Max was making a couple years back. So I while he's not there yet I don't think the chance of him stepping up to where he needs should be dismissed, especially with how much of a demon he can be wheel-to-wheel. 

Edited by polishgenius
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25 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Well, to be fair, neither does Lewis Hamilton. :P

Hamilton's always been reasonably fair in admitting when his team-mate has been genuinely superior to him: Button in 2011 and parts of 2010 and 2012, and Russell this year. Less so with Rosberg 2016 but Hamilton knows he lost the WC to Rosberg purely on reliability and possibly Rosberg's dodgy antics in Monaco (which weren't 100% cheating, but far more likely so than Perez's move this year), which clearly still rankles with him.

What Hamilton has shown is resilience and bouncing back from stretches of poor form (not just now, but at McLaren as well) to reassert his former level just when you started wondering if he'd gone into decline. His formidable run of podiums and #2 finishes in the second half of the season in a clearly inferior car (up until this week) is remarkable. Assuming the Mercedes is more competitive next season, I would not rule him out from either winning the WC again.

Quote

 

In seriousness, I think Leclerc is making fixable errors. Not too dissimilar to what Max was making a couple years back. So I while he's not there yet I don't think the chance of him stepping up to where he needs should be dismissed, especially with how much of a demon he can be wheel-to-wheel. 

 

Yeah, Leclerc's situation this year has been comparable to Max 2-3 years ago, or even at times this year. He's not in the zone yet but can get there.

I think the biggest concern with Leclerc is how easily he seems to deflate and lose the stamina for the long-haul fight, which he really needs to overcome. If he'd stayed on it 100% every race this season (and Ferrari had made a few less mistakes), he'd be very clear in second place in the WC and not having to scrap with Perez over it.

Sainz lacks Leclerc's raw speed but not by much, and his tactical and even strategic nous in the cockpit is formidable. Apart maybe from Alonso and Vettel, he seems to be able to run the calculations in his head over pit stop gaps and the best tyre strategy whilst driving the car, and sometimes makes better calls than the pit wall. Leclerc seems unable to do any of that and just obeys the team orders even when they are very clearly bollocks.

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