Formula 1 2023

[Loge]

Well, the grid penalties and tyre degradation certainly shook things up a bit. Red Bull's top speed advantage was brutal. Some interesting radio conversation, like Lando Norris being told "We are still on Plan G." Well, all is going to plan, then.  Leclerc lost a position in an attempt at the fastest lap. Solid performance from Alpine. Aston Martin wasn't so bad either. Disappointing result for McLaren.

[TheLastWolf]

Worst-happen invoking QT's Madonna

Edited September 2, 2022 by TheLastWolf

[Loge]

The CRB has ruled in favour of McLaren in the Oscar Piastri case.

[Tywin et al.]

Hamilton overtaking Perez was a thing of beauty. 

[polishgenius]

Mercedes and Hamilton blew that between them. Russell was the only one who realised they were never gonna hold Verstappen and Leclerc back on those tyres. 

But Hamilton, although the team should be making that call, has to ask himself why Russell spotted the problem and he did not.

[Raja]

Who do I have to pay to sit in on that Merc debriefing?

[TheLastWolf]

Abu Dhabi all over again

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

I'd like to see a race without DRS just once. 

[TheLastWolf]

25 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I'd like to see a race without DRS just once. 

Grand processions or sprints

[Loge]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I'd like to see a race without DRS just once. 

We had that in the late 90s and early 2000s. Casual watchers were complaining about the lack of overtaking but if you were actually watching the championship rather than individual races, there was a lot more suspense. Qualifying speed and strategy were everything and a single messed-up pit stop could decide not just the race but the entire championship. DRS was a workaround for the dirty air problem, which the latest rule changes have supposedly fixed. With the current cars, we'd probably see more interesting races without DRS, especially if they brought back refueling and use of a single type of tyre.

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Loge said:

We had that in the late 90s and early 2000s. Casual watchers were complaining about the lack of overtaking but if you were actually watching the championship rather than individual races, there was a lot more suspense. Qualifying speed and strategy were everything and a single messed-up pit stop could decide not just the race but the entire championship. DRS was a workaround for the dirty air problem, which the latest rule changes have supposedly fixed. With the current cars, we'd probably see more interesting races without DRS, especially if they brought back refueling and use of a single type of tyre.

We've had a few races with quite long suspensions of DRS for one reason or another and it's questionable to what degree the new regulations have helped. Being able to put pressure on, but pulling off the overtakes is still problematic. DRS also takes tracks like Monaco from being utterly impossible to overtake to merely almost impossible to overtake, which is a relative improvement.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

7 hours ago, Loge said:

We had that in the late 90s and early 2000s. Casual watchers were complaining about the lack of overtaking but if you were actually watching the championship rather than individual races, there was a lot more suspense. Qualifying speed and strategy were everything and a single messed-up pit stop could decide not just the race but the entire championship. DRS was a workaround for the dirty air problem, which the latest rule changes have supposedly fixed. With the current cars, we'd probably see more interesting races without DRS, especially if they brought back refueling and use of a single type of tyre.

There were races in the nineties and naughties that were processional and boring. There were also races that were spectacular. 

It seems to me that the problem they were trying to solve is largely solved by the new aero philosophy. 

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

We've had a few races with quite long suspensions of DRS for one reason or another and it's questionable to what degree the new regulations have helped. Being able to put pressure on, but pulling off the overtakes is still problematic. DRS also takes tracks like Monaco from being utterly impossible to overtake to merely almost impossible to overtake, which is a relative improvement.

And now we have the other thing. It went from being too difficult to pass too being way to easy. Battles that last longer than one straightaway or one or two laps are gone. 

[Iskaral Pust]

DRS could be adjusted to reduce less drag and lessen the advantage.  I’m glad there’s more racing and overtaking but it does seem like it favors the chaser too much.

The Netherlands GP was an interesting addition to the circuit after a long absence.  The track is fast but narrow, which can allow for some good racing but still lots of jeopardy around gravel traps.  But the pit lane seemed dangerously cramped.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

The distinction is we now have aero regs designed to solve the problem of cars not being able to run close together, which made passing more difficult. It looks like they're working.

The major problem now is rules stability. With any big overhaul in the rules, you inevitably get stratification in the competitiveness of various cars/teams. Some of them are going to get it more-right than others out of the gate, but the other teams have the potential to make large gains. In time, they'll close up. There are exceptions of course. Budgets still have a lot to do with it. 

DRS might also be possible with active suspension. I don't know if it's possible with the current aero philosophy, but Williams figured this out when testing the '92 car. If they trimmed it out a certain way going sown the straight, it stalled the rear diffuser and reduced drag. Active ride would also solve the porpoising issue, which is why it was conceived in the first place. 

I've never seen a cost breakdown, but it wouldn't surprise me if an active ride setup like the one on the FW-14B or FW-15 (without the trackside transponders and corner to corner attitude adjustments) was more economical than the passive systems they have now. 

[Loge]

Apparently the Porsche-Red Bull deal is dead. Marko has stated in a TV interview that Porsche won't become a Red Bull shareholder. That probably means Porsche won't enter Formula 1.

[TheLastWolf]

Ignorant me surprised to learn BMW Sauber was once a thing, now Alfa Romeo Sauber too breaking up with Audi's (Volkswagen) announced entry.

Edited September 6, 2022 by TheLastWolf

[Loge]

26 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ignorant me surprised to learn BMW Sauber was once a thing, now Alfa Romeo Sauber too breaking up with Audi's (Volkswagen) announced entry.

BMW actually owned Sauber, and when they pulled the plug the team would have been shut down had Peter Sauber not bought it back. Big car makers and Formula 1 generally hasn't been a good fit so far, despite the recent Mercedes success. Renault keeps entering Formula 1 only to pull out a few years later, dito Honda. Peugeot, Toyota, Ford (Jaguar), BMW - there's quite a list of unsuccessful Formula 1 entries.

As for Sauber, they also have some history with Mercedes and Red Bull.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 minutes ago, Loge said:

BMW actually owned Sauber, and when they pulled the plug the team would have been shut down had Peter Sauber not bought it back. Big car makers and Formula 1 generally hasn't been a good fit so far, despite the recent Mercedes success. Renault keeps entering Formula 1 only to pull out a few years later, dito Honda. Peugeot, Toyota, Ford (Jaguar), BMW - there's quite a list of unsuccessful Formula 1 entries.

As for Sauber, they also have some history with Mercedes and Red Bull.

I commented on something along these lines a while back.

By the early naughties the conventional wisdom was that teams had to form real partnerships with automotive OEM's in order to survive and be competitive. This meant more than just engine supply deals and close working relationships; it meant having that OEM take a substantial ownership stake in the team. In effect, to become more like Ferrari or Toyota and Jaguar at the time. If memory serves, BMW bought Sauber outright and kept Peter Sauber around in an administrative role.

After 2009 no one was talking like that anymore because that myth was busted.  Toyota and Jaguar never posed a significant threat and, after the 2009 financial crisis, Automotive OEM's determined that their corporate priorities trumped the motorsport priorities. This is what ultimately killed the BMW Sauber partnership. 

One of the most competitive teams of the following decade would turn out to be a privateer with customer engines owned by a soft drink magnate. No one predicted that. 

Regarding Toyota, I imagine there was a serious wave of terror up and down the pit lane when it was announced that Toyota would enter the sport. At that time, Toyota was not only the biggest car maker; they were the most profitable car maker by far. Sponsors or no sponsors, they could literally out-spend everyone. Even Ferrari with Marlboro's bottomless well of cash couldn't compete with the kind of money Toyota could commit to that project. Why it never came together is debatable. I think basing the team in Germany and not the English Midlands was a mistake. It's also possible that, being a high profile project, too many execs from Japan got involved and there was some paralysis at the management level. 

[lmanion]

Toyota really should have done better TTE had and have a good track record in most series they have been a part of, so yeah it had to be meddling from higher ups in Japan that caused the underperformance. It's still a shame they pulled the pin but they have probably done better out of sinking the cash into WRC and WEC.

[williamjm]

On 9/6/2022 at 5:55 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Ignorant me surprised to learn BMW Sauber was once a thing, now Alfa Romeo Sauber too breaking up with Audi's (Volkswagen) announced entry.

Sauber's only win (and 1-2) came during the BMW ownership when Kubica won in Canada with Heidfeld second, Kubica would briefly lead the world championship after that. I think that was definitely the peak of Sauber's long F1 history.