Formula 1 2023

[baxus]

12 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Alain Prost, a strong candidate for F1 GOAT, got sacked twice for publicly badmouthing his teams (Renault in '83 and Ferrari in '91). The same thing might have happened at McLaren at the end of '89 but he was already on his way out, having signed with Ferrari.

At the 1984 Italian GP, Toleman didn't allow Senna (another probable GOAT) to drive because of a contract dispute involving his signing with Lotus for '85.

The problem isn't just that Max jeopardized 1-2 in the drivers championship, which RB probably wants more than a win right now because they've never achieved the former and have plenty of the latter. It's the way he defied those team orders. Stupidly, disrespectfully, and publicly.  As was stated before on this thread, "Like a shitty boss". All apparently over some insane speculation of Checo wrecking his qualifying in Monaco. 

No one is irreplaceable.

The point of my comment was not to say that Verstappen is irreplaceable but that he is clearly above the pack that was stated to be "in the same bracket" as him. Thought that was pretty clear but obviously not.

10 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Well, to be fair, neither does Lewis Hamilton.

He did pretty well for himself as a #2 driver, didn't he?

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

Yeah, Leclerc's situation this year has been comparable to Max 2-3 years ago, or even at times this year. He's not in the zone yet but can get there.

I didn't deny Leclerc's potential to one day reach WC levels, I said he's not there yet and is at the moment not in the same category as Verstappen.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

7 hours ago, baxus said:

The point of my comment was not to say that Verstappen is irreplaceable but that he is clearly above the pack that was stated to be "in the same bracket" as him. Thought that was pretty clear but obviously not.

In my defense, I might have read your post really, really fast. 

[Werthead]

8 hours ago, baxus said:

The point of my comment was not to say that Verstappen is irreplaceable but that he is clearly above the pack that was stated to be "in the same bracket" as him. Thought that was pretty clear but obviously not.

It's not really clear at all. Hamilton and Alonso are both better drivers than him, still and almost certainly would be beating him in the same car (especially given that Verstappen has some kind of problem with Hamilton and the second he comes close to him on track some kind of weird red mist descends on him and he makes errors and misjudgement calls he wouldn't make with anyone else, even when Hamilton is well out of WC contention). Norris would probably be on a par (him pulling that flaky-as-fuck McLaren into high points-hauling positions week in, week out all season, might be the greatest achievement of any driver this year), and Russell and Leclerc have the potential but maybe need a little more seasoning.

Leclerc has absolutely rinsed Verstappen over one lap this season, and qualifying remains a key weakness that Verstappen has not really been able to address despite having the best car all season. Compare this to Hamilton who can excel both in one lap and over a race distance. Of course, I think every driver would be prepared to drop one-lap performance for the endurance skills to win the race.

[baxus]

15 hours ago, Werthead said:

Hamilton and Alonso are both better drivers than him, still and almost certainly would be beating him in the same car

Hamilton and Alonso are world class drivers, only an idiot would claim otherwise. Hamilton had a better car than Verstappen last season and Verstappen still won the championship. Sure, there was a lot of controversy from F1 throughout the season but Verstappen still won.

Funny thing is, I don't even like Verstappen and here I am "defending" him.

15 hours ago, Werthead said:

Norris would probably be on a par (him pulling that flaky-as-fuck McLaren into high points-hauling positions week in, week out all season, might be the greatest achievement of any driver this year)

If you missed the part where I claimed Norris (just like Russel and Leclerc) has potential to come to the same level as Verstappen you do need to read a bit more carefully.

Still, while Norris' performance this season is as good as could be expected in McLaren there is a difference between going for P7 and going for P1, as is best shown by Leclerc crumbling down the moment he was in the spotlight. Now, I'm not saying that Norris wouldn't benefit from having a better car, but it's a leap from there to "better car is all he needs to be on par with Verstappen". I'd absolutely love to see Norris whoop everyone's ass but I'm nowhere near as certain as you are that would be the case.

Btw, I'm not sure Norris performance, as good as they are, are a bigger achievement than, for example, Magnussen taking this combine harvester of Haas into points on a semi-regular basis and even winning a pole position this season, after a season off from F1 to boot. And yet, no one claims Magnussen would be beating Verstappen in a better car. I wonder if him being from outside UK might be a factor in that? 

[TheLastWolf]

Hulkenberg replacing Mick at Haas

Yet RB catering and Ferrari Fiasco Inc steal the limelight. Seb Ric and Goatifi get the chunk of farewell posts. Kmag-Schumacher P1-P20 quali sandwich ended the kid. Though he had a decent drive to climb up. Fingers crossed for a Ham win so the record remains. Daniel and Vettel in Audi '26 freak prediction. Still confused whom to vote DOTD. 

[TheLastWolf]

FP1 Merc were something

[TheLastWolf]

Ham gets a penalty or something for that red flag double overtake in FP3?

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ham gets a penalty or something for that red flag double overtake in FP3?

Escape

Quali was disappointing from a Merc perspective, that last lap was something till Sector 3, ironically Ham's best while he took fastest in S1 not his best last 2 days. Downforce and slipstream oh

[Werthead]

Fairly meh race, but sad to say goodbye to Vettel and goon on Charles for securing his second place.

On a related note, the BBC has an excellent series on the 2007 F1 Spygate scandal. Really interesting stuff.

[TheLastWolf]

Can this weekend get any sadder?

Honey Badger Seb and Mick...

Couldn't that Goatifi have completely crashed, sonova...

Ham and Alonso DNF, no triple donuts just solo (meh podiums'), not even with Ric or Mick.

*sniff*

Waiting for a competitive W14

Here's tentative line-up '23

Audi Seb n Mick '26 fingers crossed. Hope Max ______ so Daniel gets the seat

[Iskaral Pust]

Strange tire strategy for Perez.  They should have held off on a second stop unless/until Leclerc came in.  But perhaps Perez’ tires were wearing too badly for that: his first stop was slightly earlier than Verstappen and Leclerc and he doesn’t seem to manage tires as well as Verstappen.  Unless it was necessary, it was a bad gamble to chase a second per lap on Leclerc but it was exciting to watch if he could make it in time.  

I don’t know why Perez was complaining in the middle of the race about Verstappen holding him up: he never got within 2s, and tire management was clearly the critical factor in this race.

Leclerc deserved his runner-up in the WDC overall.  The Ferrari started poorly but then showed good pace and was pretty competitive today (at last).

Russell expanded his points advantage over Hamilton, which is a big victory in his first season at the team, even if it was assisted by shunting several opponents off the track in various races.  I know Hamilton can point to some mitigating factors as they experimented with the car set-up but Russell outperformed him by a good margin.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

I think Russell found the perfect situation this season. Obviously he would have wanted a more competitive car, but if he was actually competing for a championship the pressure on him would have been much greater. I'm sure Hamilton was feeling it too. 

As it stands, he got a few podiums and scored his first GP win. Next season is full of possibilities. He's got to be feeling pretty good right now. 

[Werthead]

Williams, McLaren and Alfa Romeo have all lost their team principals in the same week.

Not too disastrous, though, as Vasseur is moving from Alfa Romeo to head up Ferrari. That's an interesting choice as Vasseur is highly regarded in the paddock for his tactical nous and has mainly been held back by an uncompetitive car. That should no longer be a problem. He's also very close with Leclerc.

Andreas Seidl has moved from McLaren to Alfa Romeo, which will be rebranded Sauber (again) for 2023-25. That at first looks like a huge demotion, but he's managing the transition from the team to Audi F1 and will likely stay on as formal team principal for Audi. He has a lot of history with Audi in sportscars, so that makes sense. There's even rumours that Audi and Seidl are trying to poach Lando Norris with a huge payday. If McLaren can't improve quick, that will start to look like a tempting move (and may upset Mercedes, who likely have Norris marked as their #1 preferred replacement for when Hamilton retires).

Andrea Stella is being internally promoted from McLaren to replace Seidl. He's quite well-regarded, so hopefully that will work out.

Jost Capito is also moving on from Williams. Apparently his plan was to only do 2-3 seasons, and he put his retirement on hold when offered the job. No word on his replacement.

Meanwhile, billionaire Hong Kong businessman Calvin Lo is reportedly looking at joining Formula One. He's apparently exploring buying a team or starting a brand new one, despite the hefty entrance fee.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Werthead

[Wilbur]

Interesting to see the boys from Dearborn participating more actively in F1.  

Ford set to partner Red Bull in F1 from 2026 - reports | Reuters

Although when I say "participating actively" I mean slapping a sticker on the Red Bull car's engine cover in return for cash.

[Iskaral Pust]

18 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Interesting to see the boys from Dearborn participating more actively in F1.  

Ford set to partner Red Bull in F1 from 2026 - reports | Reuters

Although when I say "participating actively" I mean slapping a sticker on the Red Bull car's engine cover in return for cash.

I wonder if this is a case of Ford paying a big sponsorship fee to watch over the shoulder of the RB engineers as they continue to develop their existing engine platform (originally from Honda), or if this is a re-entry of the Cosworth engine.  The latter seems a big risk for RB to take (even with fuel changes ahead) while they are champions and have the best racing package, but that’s what makes F1 fun.

[Wilbur]

Does Ford still have a formal relationship with Cosworth?

And does Cosworth even have an engine that is within spitting distance of the current F1 regs?

[Werthead]

It's a bit of a meh idea: sounds good but when you look at it, it's more of a branding exercise.

GM is also supposedly partnering with Andretti to bring his new F1 team in, but that also looks like it's GM lending their name so it sounds like a big manufacturer is getting involved when really they're just taking a very low-cost, low-risk path.

It looks like there is now a concerted effort underway to get Sulayem to resign, or even to sever FIA's links with F1 altogether, and that might kill off the idea of Andretti or any other new team entering the sport any time soon (since there seem to be few actually in F1 keen on expanding to 11 or 12 teams, despite that being a popular idea with the fans).

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

On 2/3/2023 at 6:28 PM, Wilbur said:

Does Ford still have a formal relationship with Cosworth?

Not really but there's no reason why they couldn't be involved. My understanding is that Red Bull plans to develop and manufacture the engines in-house. Still, I'd be surprised if they didn't contract with external suppliers on some stuff. 

Quote

And does Cosworth even have an engine that is within spitting distance of the current F1 regs?

When the hybrid engine rules were being formulated, the original plan was for inline 4's. Cosworth built one of those, that eventually ended up in the back of a Jaguar C-X70 prototype. The other manufacturers successfully lobbied the FIA to switch to a V6 format, meaning Cosworth's efforts up to that point had largely been wasted. They decided not to build one. 

[Iskaral Pust]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:28 PM, Wilbur said:

Does Ford still have a formal relationship with Cosworth?

And does Cosworth even have an engine that is within spitting distance of the current F1 regs?

 

6 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Not really but there's no reason why they couldn't be involved. My understanding is that Red Bull plans to develop and manufacture the engines in-house. Still, I'd be surprised if they didn't contract with external suppliers on some stuff. 

When the hybrid engine rules were being formulated, the original plan was for inline 4's. Cosworth built one of those, that eventually ended up in the back of a Jaguar C-X70 prototype. The other manufacturers successfully lobbied the FIA to switch to a V6 format, meaning Cosworth's efforts up to that point had largely been wasted. They decided not to build one. 

My memory is always unreliable but I thought Ford fully acquired Cosworth in the late ‘90s.  Even though Ford exited F1 less than a decade later, I thought Cosworth was still part of the group somewhere.

They won’t have anything that’s F1-relevant.  I fully expect Ford are just financing the RB engineers.  Possibly as batteries play a larger role in future power trains, some of Ford’s work on the Mustang Mach E will have some passing relevance.

Porsche were offering to get hands on with RB building an ICE for synthetic fuels because it’s a way for them to retain an ICE 911 rather than move entirely to electric.  But it sounds like Porsche demanded a permanent stake in the team, which RB refused.  Ford are just supplying lots of money for co-branding amid greater American interest in the sport.  

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

 

My memory is always unreliable but I thought Ford fully acquired Cosworth in the late ‘90s.  Even though Ford exited F1 less than a decade later, I thought Cosworth was still part of the group somewhere.  

It's complicated. From wikipedia

Quote

Cosworth then went through a number of ownership changes. After Duckworth decided he did not want to be involved with the day-to-day business of running a growing company, he sold out the ownership to United Engineering Industries (UEI) in 1980, retaining his life presidency and day-to-day technical involvement with Cosworth, and becoming a UEI board director; UEI was a group of small- to medium-sized technology companies, which was taken over by Carlton Communications in 1988 – Carlton was primarily interested in some of the audio-visual companies in the UEI portfolio, and Cosworth was a poor fit with these; a new buyer for the company in the engineering/automotive sector was sought, and the traditional engineering company Vickers plc bought Cosworth in 1990.

In September 1998, Vickers sold Cosworth to Audi. Audi kept the engineering, manufacturing and casting unit which it called Cosworth Technology and sold the race engine division, Cosworth Racing, and its electronics division, Pi Research, to Ford. In December 2004, Audi announced that it sold Cosworth Technology to Mahle GmbH. Cosworth Technology was then renamed as MAHLE Powertrain on 1 July 2005.

On 15 November 2004 Ford sold Cosworth Racing to Champ Car World Series owners Gerald Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven. In December 2004, Ford also sold Pi Research to Kalkhoven and Forsythe, creating the current Cosworth Group.

Since 2006, Cosworth has diversified to provide engineering consultancy, high performance electronics, and component manufacture services outside of its classic motorsport customer base. On 25 February 2008, Cosworth was awarded a $5.4 million contract by the United States Navy to develop a heavy fuel engine for their RQ-21A Blackjack unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV).

Staying true to the company roots, Cosworth established an engineering partnership with Aston Martin on one of the world's most powerful hybrid electricroad car engines for the Aston Martin Valkyrie.