Seven Hells

[Seams]

Please describe their purposes and exactly how the "seven hells" are arranged.

You might approach your reply as if you were a scholarly Septa or Septon who has memorized long passages from the holy book The Seven Pointed Star. Or you might post your own witty description. Or feel free to impress us with a genuine, literary definition based on a close reading of the text.

Just to get past the more obvious replies, let's assume that waiting for an unfinished book is a state of purgatory, not one of the seven hells, but perhaps a step along the path. 

Here's what the wiki gives us, but feel free to ignore this and come up with your own ideas:

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Afterlife

According to The Seven-Pointed Star, lives are like candle flames, easily snuffed out by errant winds.^[98] The septons teach that afterlife is a sweet surcease, and sing of voyaging to a far sweet land where men and women may laugh and love and feast until the end of days in the Father's golden hall.^[99][100] The Faith holds that there are seven heavens and seven hells.^{[69][101][6][102]} Each of the seven hells is deeper than the next.^[103] Sinners who do not repent their sins go to the seven hells;^[98] although The Seven-Pointed Star states that all sins may be forgiven, crimes must still be punished.^[101][36] The Lord of the Seven Hells is said to command demons and practice black arts.^[35]

Wiki: Faith of the Seven

I am interested to note that the first use of the term is by Theon, who is not a follower of the Faith of the Seven, from what we know of him. Even Eddard Stark uses the term to express exasperation. 

Sandor Clegane is serious about the nature of hell. He tells Sansa:

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The septons preach about the seven hells. What do they know? Only a man who's been burned knows what hell is truly like.

(AGoT, Sansa II)

A number of the references seem to reflect notions of the hell depicted in European art: fire, dark, deep. A place where unrepentant sinners go after death.

One novel piece of information:

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"The Seven send us blessings, and the Seven send us trials. Handsome he may be, but Driftwood was surely whelped in hell. When we sought to harness him to a plow he kicked Brother Rawney and broke his shinbone in two places. We had hoped gelding might improve the beast's ill temper, but . . .

(AFfC, Brienne VI)

If the gravedigger really is Sandor Clegane, and he is the only person who knows what hell is like (because of his burn), it would be logical that his horse comes from hell. Or one of the hells.

 

 

[The hairy bear]

I've always thought that Martin's seven hells are conceptually very similar to Dante's circles of hell from his Inferno, where the sinners against each of the seven capital sins are punished according to their fault (the avaricious carry big stones,  the lustful are carried away by violent winds, the gluttons are sunken in putrid mud, etc.)

So I'd imagine a similar structure for the Seven Hells. Depending on everyone's sins, one would be placed in a hell of injustice (father), a hell of merciless (mother), a hell of ignorance (crone), a hell of weakness (warrior), and so on.

[Seams]

8 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I've always thought that Martin's seven hells are conceptually very similar to Dante's circles of hell from his Inferno, where the sinners against each of the seven capital sins are punished according to their fault (the avaricious carry big stones,  the lustful are carried away by violent winds, the gluttons are sunken in putrid mud, etc.)

So I'd imagine a similar structure for the Seven Hells. Depending on everyone's sins, one would be placed in a hell of injustice (father), a hell of merciless (mother), a hell of ignorance (crone), a hell of weakness (warrior), and so on.

I was thinking about Dante's circles as well, but didn't have the background to describe them. The idea of different hells for different types of sins sounds right to me, but I couldn't find hints about that in the books. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

Is Cersei's walk of shame a version of hell? Or a release from hell? She emerges from the dungeon under Baelor's Sept. 

Another idea that might be worth exploring comes from the hell fire as a symbolic forge. We know GRRM uses a lot of rebirth imagery and it appears that swords (and maybe also shields helmets) can die and be reborn. 

The line about the horse called Driftwood being whelped in hell also intrigues me as i think about it. Arya thinks about seven hells when she is surrounded by dragon skulls in the lower level of the Red Keep. Theon's first use of "Seven hells!" as an expletive comes when he looks upon the direwolf pups. There may be a message for us about monsters emerging from the seven hells.

Barbrey Dustin is a horse breeder, and she is also the reigning noble in the barrow lands - a sort of underworld filled with tombs. I wonder whether her horses are whelped in hell?

I had also forgotten about a little thought I wrote up in the A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms thread: "hell" is the German word for "bright." Ser Duncan the Tall is not religious, he tells us, but he uses a "shield rhyme" as a sort of prayer: "Oak and iron guard me well, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell." Since "Dunk" may be a reference to "dunkel" (German for "dark") and his opponent is Aerion Brightflame, I though the author might have set up dark and light as a pair of symbolic opposites.

When Arya utters her "seven hells" comment in the lower levels of the Red Keep, however, she observes that the room she is in is very dark. So this would imply that hell is dark, if I'm reading the symbolism correctly. Maybe the point is that hell is different for different people - as in Dante's system. For Dunk, "hell" would be bright. If you are a "bright" character, "hell" would be dark. 

[Mourning Star]

Fantastic topic!!!

I don’t think one can overestimate the references/influence to/of Dante in ASoIaF.

Starting with the title, A Song of Ice and Fire, and the poem by Robert Frost from which it comes:

Some say the world will end in fire,  
Some say in ice.  
From what I’ve tasted of desire  
I hold with those who favor fire.  
But if it had to perish twice,  
I think I know enough of hate  
To say that for destruction ice  
Is also great  
And would suffice.  

 Fire and Ice, Robert Frost

There are two popular interpretations of the poem I know of. 

One is a conversation between Robert Frost and an astronomer about if it was more likely life would end because the sun explodes, or it goes dark. Both these possibility appear represented in A Song of Ice and Fire: The Long Night, is the absence of the sun, causing death and suffering, and the Dothraki legend of the birth of dragons, where a second moon in the sky was an egg which birthed a thousand dragons and they breathed in the fire of the sun, bringing it to earth along with its destructive power.

The second interpretation is much better known and frankly more relevant here.

This poem is a reference to Dante’s Divine Comedy, and the nine lines of the poem reflect the nine circles of hell.

Fire and Ice, rather than being literal destructive forces like in the reference above, represent desire and hate, the basis for human sin, what gets you sent to hell. The implication being that the destruction of the world (or soul), or humankind, is caused by humankind. Man’s downfall is of his own making.

I think this is one of the core messages of A Song of Ice and Fire.

We see the above paralleled, almost verbatim (but notably replacing desire with love), by Melisandre, although she has an, I would suggest mistaken, viewpoint seeing everything as a two sided struggle of good versus evil:

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

The bitter/death association is even right out of Dante, see the quote below. And given her one sided view of the situation, replacing desire with love makes sense… she is biased and confused about what “good” is. An age old philosophical question itself.

However, we the reader are given a big tip off that this interpretation is flawed from Davos.

"The war?" asked Davos.  
"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.  
"My heart," Davos said slowly, "is full of doubts."  

We should all be so full of doubt. And perhaps we do have to choose where we stand, but mayhaps that doesn’t have to be with one extreme or the other.

Neither light and dark, nor hot and cold, are the same as good and evil… in the immortal words of Salador Saan: ”Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns.”

Fire and Ice are elemental forces, it is humans who are good and evil (and perhaps everyone is a mix).

It is also worth noting that love is the “good” in Dante, it is the reason for his journey and it is how the whole Divine Comedy ends, with god himself being not just a blinding light, but, “The love that moves the sun and the other stars.”

Now, having quoted the last line of Dante, we should back up and look at the first.

In the middle of the journey of our life, I came to myself, in a dark wood, where the easy way was lost. It is a hard thing to speak of, how wild, harsh and impenetrable that wood was, so that thinking of it recreates the fear. It is scarcely less bitter than death: but, in order to tell of the good that I found there, I must tell of the other things I saw there.

A Song of Ice and Fire also opens in the middle of a journey, in a dark wood, where the easy way was lost…

"We should start back," Gared urged as the woods began to grow dark around them.

And I don’t think the parallels stop there. But, enough for one post. More to come… including what I think is some interesting Sandor stuff!

[Mourning Star]

In the middle of the journey of our life, I came to myself, in a dark wood, where the direct way was lost. It is a hard thing to speak of, how wild, harsh and impenetrable that wood was, so that thinking of it recreates the fear. It is scarcely less bitter than death: but, in order to tell of the good that I found there, I must tell of the other things I saw.

A Song of Ice and Fire also begins in a dark wood, in the middle of a journey, where the easy way was lost and death was all around them. Waymar Royce declares, “dance with me then”, becomes a true man of the watch, and is promptly sent to Hell.

A Song of Ice and Fire’s first PoV chapter after the Prologue is Bran, where his father teaches him that you can only be brave when you are afraid, and Will, one of the men from the prologue is “dead with fear”, and then literally beheaded.

I cannot rightly say how I entered it. I was so full of sleep, at that point where I abandoned the true way. But when I reached the foot of a hill, where the valley, that had pierced my heart with fear, came to an end, I looked up and saw its shoulders brightened with the rays of that sun that leads men rightly on every road. Then the fear, that had settled in the lake of my heart, through the night that I had spent so miserably, became a little calmer. And as a man, who, with panting breath, has escaped from the deep sea to the shore, turns back towards the perilous waters and stares, so my mind, still fugitive, turned back to see that pass again, that no living person ever left.

Patchface literally returned from the sea/death, and can’t stop “staring back”, singing about it. The Ironborn drown and revive themselves, seemingly in some reminiscent tradition.

Bran has his falling dream, which even after he wakes, he cannot remember how he got there (or who pushed him). And though his heart is gripped by fear, and he is seemingly plummeting to the bones of a thousand other dreamers, and is afraid. He looks out and sees the living world, Dante’s wooded valley.

Melisandre will later tell us that sleep is a little death, and she fears to dream.

After I had rested my tired body a while, I made my way again over empty ground, always bearing upwards to the right. And, behold, almost at the start of the slope, a light swift leopard with spotted coat. It would not turn from before my face, and so obstructed my path, that I often turned, in order to return.

I would argue that this is where Dany being told to always go right in the House of the Undying is from, and that her visit there parallels Bran’s journey in remarkable ways, but that’s worthy of a whole post in itself.

This quote is from Dance, but I can’t help thinking it’s pretty funny, given the context, this otherwise unremarkable line from Dance: "Now comes the Spotted Cat. See how he moves, my queen. A poem on two feet."

The time was at the beginning of the morning, and the sun was mounting up with all those stars, that were with him when Divine Love first moved all delightful things, so that the hour of day, and the sweet season, gave me fair hopes of that creature with the bright pelt. But not so fair that I could avoid fear at the sight of a lion, that appeared, and seemed to come at me, with raised head and rabid hunger, so that it seemed the air itself was afraid; and a she-wolf that looked full of craving in its leanness, and, before now, has made many men live in sadness. She brought me such heaviness of fear, from the aspect of her face, that I lost all hope of ascending. And as one who is eager for gain, weeps, and is afflicted in his thoughts, if the moment arrives when he loses, so that creature, without rest, made me like him: and coming at me, little by little, drove me back to where the sun is silent.

These three beasts can be interpreted as metaphorical representations of the three roots of sin. The leopard is lust/envy, the lion is pride and ambition, and the she-wolf is avarice. These animals are possibly also a reference to the Bible, Jeremiah 5:6.

For Dante these three animals likely also stood for Florence, France and the Papacy (Rome) respectively, but I’d like to look at what they may point to in A Song of Ice and Fire, because there is another interpretation for their meanings, and the Houses of Westeros do love their Sigils.

The Three animals may also represent three sections of Hell to which sinners are sent.

The Leopard representing malice, which includes fraud and deceit. The leopard has spotted camouflage and despite being glorious to behold is clearly dangerous, forcing Dante to “walk backwards” which is the punishment for soothsayers and those who falsely claim to be able to predict the future in Hell. (To go forward you must go back!).

And whether you like the interpretation of the leopard as envy or malice, I find it interesting that Aemon is described as “spotted” when he speaks to Jon and his “disguise” falls away and he is revealed to be a dragon: The old man laid a withered, spotted hand on his shoulder. "It hurts, boy," he said softly. "Oh, yes. Choosing … it has always hurt. And always will. I know."

The Lion represents violence. Along with pride and ambition, it’s a very easy parallel to make with the Lannisters.

The she-wolf represents incontinence, or the inability to control one’s self. This may not seem like Starks at first, but it fits remarkably well with Brandon’s (Ned’s Brother) “Wolf Blood”.

So while the leopard-dragon parallel may be a bit of a stretch, these three animals met by Dante appear roughly parallel to the three main houses of A Song of Ice and Fire, the Targaryens, Lannisters, and Starks.

I’ll go further with these in a moment, but I left out the fact that all these animals appear at the foot of a mountain and the sun is just rising…

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.
He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.
He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.
He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

I believe the brooding Weirwood to be Bloodraven, and like the leopard, he is in disguise, and will appear to Bran, and many readers due to their misinterpretations, as the three eyed crow. Who the "real dragon" or "real king" is is a large question in the series.

Cat is the She-Wolf, destined to start the storm which will result in the War of Five Kings, and the ruin of her house. She advised Ned to be Hand of the King, could not control herself after Bran fell, or when Rob was killed, and she will return as Lady Stoneheart, vengeful and without the control of mercy, holding her son’s crown. The word avarice is used three times in ASoIaF, all of them in Cat’s chapters in Game of Thrones, and the first about the very ship Bran sees her in during his falling dream, which she demanded Rodrik hire, despite the cost. The aspect of her face, as Lady Stonheart, like that of Dante’s she-wolf is horrifying:

"Death and guest right," muttered Long Jeyne Heddle. "They don't mean so much as they used to, neither one."
Lady Stoneheart lowered her hood and unwound the grey wool scarf from her face. Her hair was dry and brittle, white as bone. Her brow was mottled green and grey, spotted with the brown blooms of decay. The flesh of her face clung in ragged strips from her eyes down to her jaw. Some of the rips were crusted with dried blood, but others gaped open to reveal the skull beneath.

Jaime is the Lion, prideful and violent. Who “comes at” Dante, and it was Jaime who threw Bran from the tower, and “the air itself was afraid”.

The mountain loomed above Jaime and the Hound, Black blood pouring from his helm, and we know he will die and be resurrected… and Dante’s mountain represents death itself, and the afterlife, looming above their journey, on that road less traveled… standing between them and the heavens.

But, what about Sandor you might ask? I will retune to him in a moment!

First, Dante meets Virgil’s Shadow.

When I saw him, in the great emptiness, I cried out to him ‘Have pity on me, whoever you are, whether a man, in truth, or a shadow!’ He answered me: ‘Not a man: but a man I once was

Virgil, in Bran’s dream, I would suggest, is the three eyed crow, the guide whom he asks for help.

I think it is worth noting that both Virgil and Old Nan are story tellers.

I answered him, with a humble expression: ‘Are you then that Virgil, and that fountain, that pours out so great a river of speech? O, glory and light to other poets, may that long study, and the great love, that made me scan your work, be worth something now. You are my master, and my author: you alone are the one from whom I learnt the high style that has brought me honour. See the creature that I turned back from: O, sage, famous in wisdom, save me from her, she that makes my veins and my pulse tremble.

Old Nan even predicts Bran’s fall:

Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes.

Virgil’s most famous work, which is mentioned in this section, though I did not include the whole quote, is that of the Aenead, the story of the legendary founding of Rome. Old Nan tells stories about the Targaryens who have ruled (until Robert) since Aegon’s conquest… coming from a fallen Valyria as Aeneas came from a fallen Troy, and obviously the names are similar.

She also tells stories about the founding of Winterfell, by Brandon the Builder, and the Night King, who was a Stark, cast down by his brother over a wall. A tale remarkably similar to the tale of Romulus and Remus, raised by a she wolf, and one killing the other over a wall and the founding of Rome, the legend which informs how Dante uses a she wolf to represent Rome.

I believe Old Nan is the three eyed crow and Bran’s guide, like Virgil was for Dante.

Now we come back to the shewolf who terrorized Dante so, and Virgil's answer:

When he saw me weeping, he answered: ‘You must go another road, if you wish to escape this savage place. This creature, that distresses you, allows no man to cross her path, but obstructs him, to destroy him, and she has so vicious and perverse a nature, that she never sates her greedy appetite, and after food is hungrier than before.
Many are the creatures she mates with, and there will be many more, until the Greyhound comes who will make her die in pain. He will not feed himself on land or wealth, but on wisdom, love and virtue, and his birthplace will lie between Feltro and Feltro. He will be the salvation of that lower Italy for which virgin Camilla died of wounds, and Euryalus, Turnus, and Nisus. He will chase the she-wolf through every city, until he has returned her to Hell, from which envy first loosed her.

Now for Dante, these are likely metaphors for Latin history… and possibly praise for his patron. But there is another interpretation which reads “between Feltro and Feltro”, as between felt, a poor man or priest’s clothing material, as opposed to finer garments like silk, and a third which agrees it mean’s felt, but sees these as representing felt veils, so from the death to death, as in he will be reborn.

Meanwhile, I did promise we would return to Sandor “The Hound” Clegane… who is possibly the grave digger on the quiet isle, living in poverty with priests, reborn after the death of “the hound”… a title, and literal helm, taken up first by a monstrous mercenary, and then by Lem Lemoncloak (possibly Richard Lonmouth, the knight of skulls and kisses.)

A shadow detached itself from the shadow of the wall, to become a tall man in dark grey armor. Sandor Clegane wrenched off his helm with both hands and let it fall to the ground.

And so, as a practicle conclusion to my ramblings, I would suggest that it will be Sandor who kills Lady Stoneheart.

[Evolett]

Admittedly, I’ve never really looked into the Seven Hells but would spontaneously relate them to the seven aspects of the Faith and corresponding earthly hells we see in the narrative.

The Maiden – a hell in which decrepit old men are punished and where rape is eternal.

The Mother – a hell in which wicked mothers lose their entire families over and over again, or those who wipe out entire families are punished.

The Crone – a hell in which ignorance holds sway and the light of knowledge and wisdom never shines.

The Father – a complete loss of power, authority and sound judgement.

The Smith – a burning hell filled with unquenchable fire.

The Warrior – a hell of never-ending strife and pain.

The Stranger – a complete loss of identity including one's home, damned to forever wander without roots. 

 

A quick browse through mentions of the seven hells in the books reveals a correlation with kingslaying and wolves.  This suggests the crime of kingslaying is grievious enough to warrent punishment in the seven hells. As far as the wolves are concerned, I would argue that warging is probably the cardinal sin here. A warg who develops the skill and becomes an expert is apt to break associated taboos (such as skinchanging humans) and thus be in the position to commit crimes against humanity that deserve punishment in "seven hells."

 

I’ve enjoyed  @Mourning Star analysis of Dante’s Inferno in relation to the seven hells – let’s have some more of that 

[LynnS]

I would add Ned Stark's dream of the frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.  That seems to correspond to the 9th circle of Dante's hell; the frozen lake and the deepest level of wickedness.  Reserved for traitors to kindred, traitors to one's Lord, traitors to guests, and traitors to country.

 

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Ninth Circle (Treachery)[edit]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Gustave_Dore_Inferno32.jpg/220px-Gustave_Dore_Inferno32.jpg

 

Dante speaks to the traitors in the ice, Canto XXXII

Canto XXXII
At the base of the well, Dante finds himself within a large frozen lake: Cocytus, the Ninth Circle of Hell. Trapped in the ice, each according to his guilt, are punished sinners guilty of treachery against those with whom they had special relationships. The lake of ice is divided into four concentric rings (or "rounds") of traitors corresponding, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of lords. This is in contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery; as Ciardi writes, "The treacheries of these souls were denials of love (which is God) and of all human warmth. Only the remorseless dead center of the ice will serve to express their natures. As they denied God's love, so are they furthest removed from the light and warmth of His Sun. As they denied all human ties, so are they bound only by the unyielding ice."^[103] This final, deepest level of hell is reserved for traitors, betrayers and oathbreakers (its most famous inmate is Judas Iscariot).

 

It doesn't really map with the Faith of the Seven; but it does seem on the nose for the Starks.  I wonder if Martin is hinting at some egregious form of treachery in the past for which they are now paying the price.

[Seams]

This conversation between Jaime and Ser Bonifer Hasty may hold an important clue for us:

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"If they made sincere repentance for their sins . . . yes, I would embrace them all as brothers and pray with them before I sent them to the block. Sins may be forgiven. Crimes require punishment." Hasty folded his hands before him like a steeple, in a way that reminded Jaime uncomfortably of his father. "If it is Sandor Clegane that we encounter, what would you have me do?"

Pray hard, Jaime thought, and run. "Send him to join his beloved brother and be glad the gods made seven hells. One would never be enough to hold both of the Cleganes." He pushed himself awkwardly to his feet. "Beric Dondarrion is a different matter. Should you capture him, hold him for my return. I'll want to march him back to King's Landing with a rope about his neck, and have Ser Ilyn take his head off where half the realm can see."

(AFfC, Jaime III)

I have been pondering the possibility that Jaime is a symbolic Rhaegar - Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar but she instead partners with Jaime. There is suspicion that Rhaegar and Tywin were plotting to depose Aerys, with the tourney at Harrenhal as a key moment in advancing their plot. At that tourney, Aerys appoints Jaime to the kings guard and sends him to King's Landing. When Jaime kills Aerys, Ned finds him sitting on the Iron Throne as one would expect from the king's successor. 

But we have the longtime rumor that Queen Rhaella was in love with Ser Bonifer Hasty, and that he might have fathered her first child, Rhaegar. Here we have Jaime comparing Bonifer Hasty to his father. Jaime will also call him "Baelor Butthole" because he became religious, like King Baelor, and because Jaime thinks he's a jerk. "Shit" symbolism is usually associated with Tywin and Jaime, so the butthole reference is a further link to Jaime's father. 

Rhaegar is associated with Gregor Clegane because Rhaegar knighted Gregor and because Gregor raped Rhaegar's wife. Gregor is also the Mountain that Rides, which is the opposite of Dany's baby Rhaego, who is the Stallion that Mounts the World. 

Sandor refused to be knighted but he was appointed to the kings guard by Joffrey, who is sort of a "mini-me" version of Jaime, in my reading of the text. Joffrey was betrothed to Sansa but it is Sandor, Joffrey's body guard, who gave Sansa a cloak. 

In the hints left for us, I think Gregor Clegane may represent the growing season (or maybe the previous growing season) and/or a fertility god (anagram: green grace log) but Sandor Clegane represents the long night (irony because he refuses to become a knight but he is a "night" based on clues in his conversation with Sansa between days of the Hand's Tourney). He may also represent fire or R'hllor because he survived fire.

Jaime wants Sandor to join Gregor in hell BUT not in the same hell. And Gregor is already in hell, by Jaime's estimation, but Sandor is not. 

There is also an element of time implied here, based on the idea that one hell would not be enough to hold the Cleganes. Meaning they could escape one hell, but it would take longer to escape from seven hells? Or is it a spatial calculation about the size of hell, because the Cleganes are large men? Or, like the dungeon and cage that held Rorge, Biter and Jaqen, is hell a fortified dungeon that is stronger because it has seven layers?

I like the temporal idea because that fits with the idea of rebirth that recurs throughout the books. Rhaegar died but he is reborn in various ways, including through one or more children who survived. Gregor Clegane died but he is reborn as Ser Robert Strong. Sandor has died but he seems to have been reborn as the Gravedigger and/or by Lem Lemoncloak, who wears his helmet. 

I guess my point is that there may be seven hells because they represent seven stages of rebirth after death. The trip through hell is important for the Cleganes because they are central to the symbolism of the series. Like a forge where metal is smelted and reworked, hell is a place where humans are reworked to emerge as new weapons. 

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Dolorous Edd was feeding the horses. "Give the wildling an axe, why not?" He pointed out Mormont's weapon, a short-hafted battle-axe with gold scrollwork inlaid on the black steel blade. "He'll give it back, I vow. Buried in the Old Bear's skull, like as not. Why not give him all our axes, and our swords as well? I mislike the way they clank and rattle as we ride. We'd travel faster without them, straight to hell's door. Does it rain in hell, I wonder? Perhaps Craster would like a nice hat instead."

Jon smiled. "He wants an axe. And wine as well."

(ACoK, Jon III)

Long ago, @GloubieBoulga (I believe) pointed out that Dolorous Edd is a witty version of Ned Stark. So imagine that this is Ned complaining about giving an axe to Craster. When a character asks whether something is true, this is often the author telling us, "This is true." So it sounds as if at least one of the hells is rainy. (Which leads us back to Tywin and the Rains / Reynes of Castamere.)

Axes are used to cut down trees, of course, but they are also symbolic spouses: Asha tells Theon that an axe is her wedded husband and Areo Hotah is married to his longaxe. So Edd seems to be telling us that people without spouses can get to hell (be reborn?) faster than people with axes (spouses). 

[Evolett]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

I would add Ned Stark's dream of the frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.  That seems to correspond to the 9th circle of Dante's hell; the frozen lake and the deepest level of wickedness.  Reserved for traitors to kindred, traitors to one's Lord, traitors to guests, and traitors to country.

You've set me off on a quest here, looking for more "frozen Starks" and besides frequent mentions of Ned's frozen face there are indeed several other bits of evidence for a "frozen hell" perhaps reserved for Starks. There is also evidence for a means to escaping from that hell, the frozen one at least.
I've put together a number of relevant quotes:

Quote

Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

This is from Bran's waking dream where he must learn to "fly" or die upon the jagged spires of ice in a frozen wasteland. Bran escapes the frozen hell by learning to “fly” – “flying,” another term for warging, grants the soul a second life in a wolf, or as we learn through Varamyr, the chance at a second life in another human. Either way, in this case, it’s a sure way for the soul to avoid a frozen hell. Since the warg's soul mingles with the wolf's to the extent that nothing of the man remains, a warg can probably escape that hell altogether. 

Another probable frozen hell, the heart of winter:

Quote

And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Benjen Stark might also be in a "frozen hell:"

Quote

But Eddard Stark was dead, Benjen Stark lost in the frozen wilds beyond the Wall.

Arya:

Quote

 “You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

And here the "frozen hell" is a penance, enforced by Septa Mordane. Interesting. (Does Septa Mordane symbolize a dead (Mor) Dayne (dane) making sure the punishment is carried out in the frozen hell?)

Jon:

Quote

“Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

Just before he dies (presumably), Jon thinks of Arya and Needle? And feels the cold which could imply he's on his way to the frozen hell. His brothers kill him because they consider him a traitor to the NW, which would match up with Dante's 9th circle. So perhaps calling Ghost and thinking "stick them with the pointy end" represents a choice. The choice between a second life in his wolf or doing penance down in hell. 

 

As we see through Theon's POV, Winterfell becomes a living earthly frozen hell. And he is one of the ghosts that reside in this hell. 

Quote

Back behind him, he heard a woman laugh. Even here in this half-frozen lichyard of a castle, surrounded by snow and ice and death, there were women. Washerwomen. That was the polite way of saying camp follower, which was the polite way of saying whore.

Here too, escape is possible, through the help of "washerwomen." Perhaps "washerwomen" can symbolically "melt" ice ("turn it to water to wash"). They are "spearwives" with a "fiery" temperament. A good clue to this comes from Ramsay's pink letter, I think: 

Quote

 If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

The skins of the women make a warm cloak which acts as a shield against the cold. 

Fire should facilitate escape from such an icy hell and is so suggested by the prayers to R'llor:

Quote

“R’hllor,” Ser Godry sang, “we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants.

Here, fire cleanses the sins and melts the icy chains that bind the damned, leaving them free to rise through the circles of hell into the light. Independently of this discussion on the seven hells, I've always thought of wights as bound by icy chains to the Others with fire the means to break that bond and release them from undeath.

The Others are essentially bound to a frozen hell as well and thus it is fitting that they are released from this hell by way of "frozen fire."

Quote

“Dragonglass.” The red woman’s laugh was music. “Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other.”

 

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

It doesn't really map with the Faith of the Seven; but it does seem on the nose for the Starks.  I wonder if Martin is hinting at some egregious form of treachery in the past for which they are now paying the price.

This is a really difficult question to answer, at least in view of the information we have at present. Did Ned commit treason when he chose Sansa's life over denouncing Joff's claim to the throne? Did Torrhen Stark betray the North when he bent the knee to Aegon I? Does Robb not keeping his word to Walder Frey warrent a stint in a frozen hell? How about the son of Bael? He killed his father unknowingly but as Ygritte informs us, the gods hate kinslayers even if they have no idea of the relationship. She also reveals:

Quote

One o’ his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak.” 

If said Lord, presumably a Bolton, killed him as well as skinned him, that would also consitute a cardinal sin against one's liege Lord. And if Stark cloaks are  as"warm" as those of washerwomen, they would prevent said Bolton from suffering in a frozen hell. The Bolton's do have "eyes of dirty ice."

I guess it all depends on who controls and manages the Seven Hells.  

[Evolett]

The Drowned God - a god damned to a watery hell?

The World Book gives an account of an Ironborn king who brought the Faith of the Seven to the Iron Islands. Noteworthy is his attempt to add the Drowned God as one more godly aspect to the Seven which would have made Eight. Since neither septons nor priests of the Drowned God favoured this, he declared the Drowned God an aspect of the Stranger:

Quote

Though Harmund II accepted the Seven as true gods, he continued to do honor to the Drowned God as well, and on his return to Great Wyk spoke openly of “the Eight Gods,” and decreed that a statue of the Drowned God should be raised at the doors of every sept. This pleased neither the septons nor the priests and was denounced by both. In an attempt to placate them, the king rescinded his decree and declared that god had but seven faces … but the Drowned God was one of those, as an aspect of the Stranger.

The Drowned God being an aspect of the Stranger could be hinting the Stranger corresponds to a "frozen hell," with the Drowned God residing in the "water aspect" of ice. 

Similarly, the Reynes were consigned to an earthly watery hell.

The Damphair's drowning and reviving ritual can then also be seen in the light of releasing drowned sinners from their watery hell.  

[Mourning Star]

I think it is worth noting that while Dante writes of his famous Nine Circles of Hell, it is very easy to get to Seven, since two of the circles are distinctly Christian (as opposed to say the three beasts I mentioned above who are directly corollary to Aristotle's incontinence, violence/bestiality, and fraud/malice.)

The first circle of Dante's Inferno is Limbo, a place for the unbaptized and virtuous pagans.

“I am Virgil, and for no other crime did I lose Heaven than for not having faith…not for doing, but for not doing have I lost the sight of the high Sun…there I dwell with the innocent little ones”

The sixth circle is for heresy. This is the last circle in "upper hell" before the walls of the City of Dis.

Both Heresy and Non-belief (or being unbaptized) are particular to Christianity, and there are even figures among their number greatly admired by Dante, including Virgil himself.

Dis is another name for the devil, lucifer (light bringer), the dragon, the three headed beast at the center of hell.

I also think it is no coincidence that we see major "sins" of ASoIaF in Dante.

The Ninth Circle of Hell is divided into four rounds, descending towards the devil himself, frozen in ice.

Caina, after the Biblical Cain; traitors to blood relatives. Kinslayer

Antenora, after Antenor from the Iliad; traitors to country. Turncoat

Ptolomea, after Ptolemy, governor of Jericho, who murdered his guests. Betrayer of Guestright

Special note here: Dante says their souls descend immediately to hell and their living bodies are possessed by demons when they commit these acts.

Finally, Judecca, after Judas Iscariot; traitors to masters and benefactors. 

The three most notable souls in the deepest part of Hell, being chewed on by the Devil's three heads, are Judas, Brutus and Cassius. Judas betrayed Jesus, and Brutus and Cassius betrayed Julius Ceasar. I point this out because the stabbing of Jon Snow is comparable to the death of Caesar.

Because I like tying these literary analysis back to the story (and making wild predictions) I would point out that after visiting the lowest part of Hell, Dante passes out through the bottom. I would suggest that we will see Bran escape Bloodraven's cave by passing through the bottom and escaping via the underground river which flows beneath, possibly all the way to the crypts of Winterfell, feeding the cold pool in the Godswood.

[Mourning Star]

I also want to return to the Virgil parallel both in Dante (to the Sibyl in Virgil's Aeneid) and the three eyed crow in ASoIaF. I've quoted liberally from wikipedia without siting it, sorry.

The Cumaean Sibyl prophesied by “singing the fates” and writing on oak leaves.

The Sibyl was a guide to the underworld (Hades), whose entrance lay at the nearby crater of Avernus.

Trojan, Anchises' son, the descent of Avernus is easy.
All night long, all day, the doors of Hades stand open.
But to retrace the path, to come up to the sweet air of heaven,
That is labour indeed.

Aeneid 6.126-129.

Dante comes across the gates of Hell in Canto 3, inscribed with, "Abandon hope all ye who enter here". Then he and Virgil meet Charon, the boatman, who famously says:

Hope not ever to see Heaven. I have come to lead you to the other shore; into eternal darkness; into fire and into ice.

One may note that this is the very line which may have, directly or indirectly, inspired the name of the series, A Song of Ice and Fire (see my comment on the Frost poem, Fire and Ice, above).

The story of the Sibyl given by Ovid in his Metamorphosis is interesting in it's own right.

Although she was a mortal, the Sibyl lived about a thousand years. She attained this longevity when Apollo offered to grant her a wish in exchange for her virginity; she took a handful of sand and asked to live for as many years as the grains of sand she held. Later, after she refused the god's love, he allowed her body to wither away because she failed to ask for eternal youth. Her body grew smaller with age and eventually was kept in a jar (ampulla). Eventually only her voice was left

Obviously, as I believe that Old Nan is the three eyed crow, and Bran's spirit guide, comparable to Virgil and the Sibyl, this hits home for me.

In a portion of the Aeneid, Book 6, the Sibyl directs Aeneas to properly bury the singer Misenus (with the correct funeral rites) and gather the Golden Bough for Proserpina (wife of Dis Pater, father death, or Pluto) who was the Roman deity best comparable to Persephone (also called Kore, the maiden) of Greek Mythology. A story in itself but Dis takes Proserpina to wife and once she eats the pomegranate seeds he offers her she cannot leave, for those that eat the food of the dead cannot leave the underworld. (One could take this optimistically about Sansa's refusal to eat the pomegranate seeds offered by Littlefinger, if you were so inclined.) End of the story, we have seasons because she was allowed to spend half the year above with her mother, and half the year below with her husband. Irregular seasons are obviously a major issue in ASoIaF.

I also feel the need to mention The Golden Bough written by the Scottish anthropologist Sir James George Frazer. Frazer attempted to define the shared elements of religious belief and scientific thought, discussing fertility rites, human sacrifice, the dying god, the scapegoat, and many other symbols and practices whose influences had extended into 20th-century culture. His thesis is that old religions were fertility cults that revolved around the worship and periodic sacrifice of a sacred king. Frazer proposed that mankind progresses from magic through religious belief to scientific thought. These thoughts, or plays on them can be seen prominently in ASoIaF, for instance regarding Garth Greenhand or the Prince of Pentos.

In Pentos we have a prince, my friend. He presides at ball and feast and rides about the city in a palanquin of ivory and gold. Three heralds go before him with the golden scales of trade, the iron sword of war, and the silver scourge of justice. On the first day of each new year he must deflower the maid of the fields and the maid of the seas." Illyrio leaned forward, elbows on the table. "Yet should a crop fail or a war be lost, we cut his throat to appease the gods and choose a new prince from amongst the forty families."

Aeneas's mother, the goddess Venus (love, and also notably here a planet that when seen in the east before sunrise is the Morning Star, light bringer), sends two doves to aid him in this difficult task, and these help him to find the tree. The Trojans carry out the funerary rites for Misenus, allowing Aeneas to start his descent into the Underworld. The Sibyl shows the golden bough to Charon who only then allows them to enter his boat and cross the Stygian river. On the other side, she casts a drugged cake to the three-headed watchdog Cerberus, who swallows it and falls asleep.

Aeneas finally finds his father in Elysian Fields and ends up returning to the world of the living through one of the gates in the House of Sleep where dreams are sent to mankind.

Two gates the silent house of Sleep adorn;
Of polish'd ivory this, that of transparent horn:
True visions thro' transparent horn arise;
Thro' polish'd ivory pass deluding lies.
Of various things discoursing as he pass'd,
Anchises hither bends his steps at last.
Then, thro' the gate of iv'ry, he dismiss'd
His valiant offspring and divining guest.

It is an old debate as to why Aeneas returns through the gate designated for lies. I think the simplest explanation is that we aren't to take the story literally, but make of it what you will. I recall that Melisandre compares sleep to death directly in ASoIaF, and we see multiple instances of meaningful dreams, possibly including truths and lies.

He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

I know I'm rambling at length, but I want to return to Virgil's Sibyl for a moment, because there is another story about her, or possibly a different Sibyl, I think worthy of comparison to ASoIaF here.

Aeneas could be compared to Aegon, who led his people to Westeros (Rome/Italy) from Valyria (Troy).

The last Kings of Rome were the Tarquins, who I would hazard to suggest inspired the name of the Targaryens.

Lucius Tarquinius Superbus was the seventh and last king of Rome. An unidentified old women, who Varro claims was the Cumaean Sibyl, came to Rome. She offered nine books of prophecies to King Tarquin; and as the king declined to purchase them, owing to the exorbitant price she demanded, she burned three and offered the remaining six to Tarquin at the same stiff price, which he again refused, whereupon she burned three more and repeated her offer. Tarquin then relented and purchased the last three at the full original price, whereupon she "disappeared from among men". Tarquin had them preserved in a sacred vault beneath the Capitoline temple of Jupiter. The story is alluded to in Varro's lost books quoted in Lactantius's Institutiones Divinae.

I think it's possible to compare the Sibylline Books to Blood and Fire (The Death of Dragons) in ASoIaF.

Ten years ago, Tyrion had read a fragment of Unnatural History that had eluded the Blessed Baelor, but he doubted that any of Barth's work had found its way across the narrow sea. And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

Enough for one post, but I do love the topic and hope to be back for more!

[Seams]

19 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

In a portion of the Aeneid, Book 6, the Sibyl directs Aeneas to properly bury the singer Misenus (with the correct funeral rites) and gather the Golden Bough for Proserpina (wife of Dis Pater, father death, or Pluto) who was the Roman deity best comparable to Persephone (also called Kore, the maiden) of Greek Mythology.

This is all marvelous, @Mourning Star. I look forward to your next posts.

The cited excerpt may help to explain where Brienne and Jaime are going when they disappear together at Pennytree. 

Brienne buried Nimble Dick Crabb at Crackclaw Point, perhaps fulfilling the Sibyl's direction to bury Misenus. With help from Pod, she also killed Shagwell, Tymeon and Pyg - this could represent Cerberus who has to be removed as an obstacle before the descent into the underworld.

The golden bough could be Jaime's replacement arm. (Or, alternatively, the sword Oathkeeper.) In Frazer's book, he begins with a story of a king who has to stay awake beneath a tree because his successor must kill him and take a branch from the tree in order to become the new occupant of the throne. Jaime's kingslayer arm is replaced with the golden arm which may represent the branch he needed.

We know that Brienne is determined to honor her oaths to both Catelyn and Jaime to find Sansa Stark, who is surrounded by all kinds of Proserpina symbolism (although with a twist, as you noted, when she declines to eat the pomegranate). 

So I would guess that Jaime is Aeneas here, although that does not preclude your insight about Aegon as Aeneas.

Brienne may be Venus, the goddess of love and beauty, which fits with GRRM's love of irony.

Elsewhere, I have noted that Tyrion has a lot of Odysseus parallels on his trip to Essos and, of course, Cersei could be a Circe.  

[Mourning Star]

45 minutes ago, Seams said:

Elsewhere, I have noted that Tyrion has a lot of Odysseus parallels on his trip to Essos

Just wanted to point out an interesting possibility since I mentioned the gates of horn and ivory above, and the first recorded reference to these gate through which dreams are sent to men, true and false, is actually in the Odyssey by Penelope, wife of Odysseus.

 For two are the gates of shadowy dreams, and one is fashioned of horn and one of ivory. Those dreams that pass through the gate of sawn ivory deceive men, bringing words that find no fulfillment. But those that come forth through the gate of polished horn bring true issues to pass, when any mortal sees them. But in my case it was not from thence, methinks, that my strange dream came.

Penelope dreams of her husbands return, which prompts the quote above.

If we read Sansa having a dream of Tyrion's return to Westeros, possibly while she is surrounded by suiters, I think we've identified the literary reference. This doesn't seem at all out of the realm of possibility to me.

While I'm on the topic and in the mood to ramble... "polished horn" doesn't appear many times in the series, I quoted the first reference above (Old Nan's stories of the Wildlings).

But, the next instance is possibly interesting in its own right:

Ned had hoped to discover the king still abed in a wine-soaked sleep, but luck was not with him. They found Robert drinking beer from a polished horn and roaring his displeasure at two young squires who were trying to buckle him into his armor. "Your Grace," one was saying, almost in tears, "it's made too small, it won't go." He fumbled, and the gorget he was trying to fit around Robert's thick neck tumbled to the ground.
"Seven hells!" Robert swore. "Do I have to do it myself? Piss on the both of you. Pick it up. Don't just stand there gaping, Lancel, pick it up!" The lad jumped, and the king noticed his company. "Look at these oafs, Ned. My wife insisted I take these two to squire for me, and they're worse than useless. Can't even put a man's armor on him properly. Squires, they say. I say they're swineherds dressed up in silk."
Ned only needed a glance to understand the difficulty. "The boys are not at fault," he told the king. "You're too fat for your armor, Robert."
Robert Baratheon took a long swallow of beer, tossed the empty horn onto his sleeping furs, wiped his mouth with the back of his hand, and said darkly, "Fat? Fat, is it? Is that how you speak to your king?" He let go his laughter, sudden as a storm. "Ah, damn you, Ned, why are you always right?"
The squires smiled nervously until the king turned on them. "You. Yes, both of you. You heard the Hand. The king is too fat for his armor. Go find Ser Aron Santagar. Tell him I need the breastplate stretcher. Now! What are you waiting for?"

Robert may not be dreaming but he is speaking truth while holding the polished horn, the squires are far worse than useless and will contribute directly to his own death.

Then when he puts down the horn, he sends the squires on a false quest.

Meanwhile Cersei is the one behind the squires being there, and behind the eventual wine-boar "mishap". So I would be remiss if I did not point out that calling the squire "swineheards" may point not only to Roberts future goring by the boar, but to the fact that, in the Odyssey, Circe turns the men who visit her island into pigs.

The only other hits I could find for "polished horn" on asearchoficeandfire were for Gendry and his frequent polishing of his horned helm. Perhaps the dream this represents to him is a true one?

Finally, Arya references this polished horn helm in an interesting place, and perhaps it indicates her dreams of vengeance may be true as well.

Arya watched and listened and polished her hates the way Gendry had once polished his horned helm. Dunsen wore those bull's horns now, and she hated him for it. She hated Polliver for Needle, and she hated old Chiswyck who thought he was funny. And Raff the Sweetling, who'd driven his spear through Lommy's throat, she hated even more. She hated Ser Amory Lorch for Yoren, and she hated Ser Meryn Trant for Syrio, the Hound for killing the butcher's boy Mycah, and Ser Ilyn and Prince Joffrey and the queen for the sake of her father and Fat Tom and Desmond and the rest, and even for Lady, Sansa's wolf. The Tickler was almost too scary to hate. At times she could almost forget he was still with them; when he was not asking questions, he was just another soldier, quieter than most, with a face like a thousand other men.
Every night Arya would say their names. "Ser Gregor," she'd whisper to her stone pillow. "Dunsen, Polliver, Chiswyck, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Amory, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." Back in Winterfell, Arya had prayed with her mother in the sept and with her father in the godswood, but there were no gods on the road to Harrenhal, and her names were the only prayer she cared to remember.

 

[LynnS]

On 7/10/2022 at 3:43 PM, Evolett said:

You've set me off on a quest here, looking for more "frozen Starks" and besides frequent mentions of Ned's frozen face there are indeed several other bits of evidence for a "frozen hell" perhaps reserved for Starks. There is also evidence for a means to escaping from that hell, the frozen one at least.

I haven't thought of it terms of escaping the hell the Starks are bound for.  That's an interesting idea! I was thinking more in terms of the Wall as the frozen hell reserved for Starks; that everything is connected to preserving the Wall.  This is the frozen hell to which Jon and Benjen have been consigned.  The crypts of Winterfell may be another frozen hell to which souls of the kings of winter are consigned until they are called upon by the horn of winter.   

The Faceless Men have another notion of the afterlife referred to as the nightlands:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?

 

 This would be in keeping with their role of the stranger.  

Oddly this description of an angel walking beside us fits Hodor:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

 

So I'm guessing that Hodor could not have been affected by Bran until the day Bran was born.  Hodor is the dark shadow/angel walking beside Bran in this passage.

[Mourning Star]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So I'm guessing that Hodor could not have been affected by Bran until the day Bran was born.  Hodor is the dark shadow/angel walking beside Bran in this passage.

It has to be noted in this discussion of Hell, that we get the term from the Norse Mythological figure Hel.

Daughter of Loki and sister to the Fenris Wolf and World Serpent, Hel was Queen of the Underworld.

This deserves more attention here imo, but I had to take a moment after reading your post to point out that in Norse Mythology Baldur is killed by Hodr, and sent to Hel.

There is a decent parallel to be made between Bran and Baldur, and this comparison or Hodor to the "dark angel" brought this to mind.

Sorry for the half baked thought but I found it interesting, hopefully I find some time to come back to it.

[LynnS]

On 7/10/2022 at 3:43 PM, Evolett said:

“R’hllor,” Ser Godry sang, “we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants.

This is also interesting.  The idea that fire cleanses the soul is something Mel brings up and we see that spiritual fire cleansing Dany's soul in her wake the dragon dream.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

  I think this is the kind of spiritual transformation that the priests of R'hllor are hinting at in the liturgy.   We also see the part of Drogo's soul that is attached to his body ascend to the heavens on his funeral pyre.  Fire is the means for releasing the thralls of the Others. So there is a truth to fire cleansing in that context.

I have a suspicion that whichever character personifies the soul of ice will only be released by the cleansing fire.  

It's curious that the Dothraki believe that the soul ascends and becomes a star while the Faith believe that seven stars came down and walked the earth.

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

... the first recorded reference to these gate through which dreams are sent to men, true and false, is actually in the Odyssey by Penelope, wife of Odysseus.

...

If we read Sansa having a dream of Tyrion's return to Westeros, possibly while she is surrounded by suiters, I think we've identified the literary reference.

But Penny is also the Penelope character in Tyrion's arc. Maybe the point will be that Tyrion's entire Selaesori Qhoran interlude is a dream. That doesn't feel right, though.

It's almost as if Circe and Penelope have swapped in ASOIAF, relative to the Odyssey. In the ancient story, Circe turns the crew of Odysseus' ship into pigs. In ASOIAF, Penny persuades Tyrion to ride a pig, which is what Joffrey wanted him to do in order to become Joffrey's champion. Cersei is the one who waits for him at home (except she wants only his head). 

I suspect the name "Penny" is associated with "serpents" in some of the anagrams (serpentine steps, Ser Arlan of Pennytree and Ser Illifer the Penniless). But it is also a coin and that relates to Littlefinger and Tyrion as the Masters of Coins. 

Hmm. Now that I think of it, there was a character name Scylla on the Shy Maid and now I'm wondering whether something about his Yezzan zo Qaggaz interlude is a symbolic Charybdis? Before the storm on the Selaesori Qhoran, Penny gets Tyrion to feed acorns to the pig. Acorns are also called "mast," and this may represent Tyrion being tied to the mast. 

But I digress from our Seven Hells topic. Carry on. 

[Mourning Star]

18 hours ago, Seams said:

But Penny is also the Penelope character in Tyrion's arc. Maybe the point will be that Tyrion's entire Selaesori Qhoran interlude is a dream. That doesn't feel right, though.

It's almost as if Circe and Penelope have swapped in ASOIAF, relative to the Odyssey. In the ancient story, Circe turns the crew of Odysseus' ship into pigs. In ASOIAF, Penny persuades Tyrion to ride a pig, which is what Joffrey wanted him to do in order to become Joffrey's champion. Cersei is the one who waits for him at home (except she wants only his head). 

I suspect the name "Penny" is associated with "serpents" in some of the anagrams (serpentine steps, Ser Arlan of Pennytree and Ser Illifer the Penniless). But it is also a coin and that relates to Littlefinger and Tyrion as the Masters of Coins. 

Hmm. Now that I think of it, there was a character name Scylla on the Shy Maid and now I'm wondering whether something about his Yezzan zo Qaggaz interlude is a symbolic Charybdis? Before the storm on the Selaesori Qhoran, Penny gets Tyrion to feed acorns to the pig. Acorns are also called "mast," and this may represent Tyrion being tied to the mast. 

But I digress from our Seven Hells topic. Carry on. 

And I too hope to return to the hellish topic at hand, but while we are digressing...

I had to chuckle at "Penny" being short for "Penelope". I know, I'm sorry. Although I suspect the name may be more a play on the "dwarf's penny", Tyrion's tax on whores, and hope she will be something of impetus for change in him morally.

Honestly, I hadn't given Tyrion as Odysseus that much thought until you mentioned it. Especially when we have Davos, whose story arc fits in a few places, if perhaps his character less so. I'll have to give it all some more thought.

[Evolett]

Part 1 of 2 posts

Examining the seven hells can serve to help explain several confusing or unclear aspects of the story, the background story in particular, I find, or aid in connecting different aspects of the narrative. We are probably not going to see any supernatural “hells,” but even a rudimentary evaluation of the text is enough to reveal several earthbound “hells” on the planet, both physical and psychological in nature.

Some examples:

• The icy Grey Waste in Essos, populated by various dread-inspiring monsters.
• Asshai, covered in shadow, devoid of light and fertility. Shadowbinders and mages may walk this earthly hell, an apt place for them to be.
• The jungles of Sothoryos, the ancient City of Yeen, a location so “dark” that not even the malevolent jungle intrudes upon it. The mysterious oily black stone may be a particular feature of hell.
• Destroyed Old Valyria – definitely hellish. Poor Aerea Targaryen. Gruesome worms that use living humans as hosts appear to feature in this hell.
• The Red Waste and Dorne – hot dry infertile locations where one can starve to death or die of thirst. In Dorne, severe sandstorms and winds are said to strip the flesh from a man’s bones.
• Hardhome has special hell status, then and now.
• The frozen North beyond the Wall, home to the Others and to the undead, the heart of winter beyond the curtain of light.
• Watery hells – the Sorrows where the Shrouded Lord resides waiting to dispense his “grey kiss.” Greyscale is a physical and mental hell in itself. The Drowned God who feasts on sacrifices made to him.
• Slaver’s Bay – a hell for all those sold into or born into slavery.
• The Isle of Gorgosos where women are made to mate with beasts.
• The Riverlands since the beginning of the war. War, strife, death, marauding bands indiscriminately killing smallfolk, stealing and destroying their harvests and herds. Location of the Red Wedding, two undead walking.
• The Battle of the Blackwater, a fiery and watery hell.
• Private hells such as that experienced by Theon Greyjoy at the hands of Ramsay. A physical and mental hell with the added agony of losing one’s identity.
• “Broken men” living in a psychological hell including madness, men in torment,

 

Looking at these locations / situations / personal predicaments from the perspective of their status as one of the seven hells reveals there is often a way out, or a way to ascend to a next perhaps less nefarious level, or to descend further, as the case may be.

Take Dany’s journey through the Red Waste for example. The discovery of the City of Bones (also a place of death) offers a respite from the hot and arid Red Waste, a new lease on life for her small khalasaar. They are still in a level of hell, however. Qarth is the next stage where Dany is in danger of being dragged right back to a different hell by the Warlocks and the Undying. In Slaver’s Bay, she frees multitudes of slaves from their plight, killing the overseers of this hell, the masters, in the process. Her motives are noble but she cannot consolidate this freedom without making concessions. Her freedmen do not leave this hell entirely.

The motif of ascending and descending characters, of heights and depths, perhaps even mountains and vales or lakes, weirwoods and accompanying pools at their base, maybe giants vrs. CotF/dwarfs, the frozen 700ft Wall versus the frozen fields and “haunted” forest beyond the Wall becomes clearer when viewed through this lens as well.

As I proposed in my previous post, Bran’s learning to “fly” just before he falls to certain death on frozen spikes of ice represents an escape from a frozen hell. Flying or warging – the transfer of a one’s soul to a beast or to another person is a means to avoiding that hell. Had Danaery’s dragons been old enough to ride, she, like Bran, could have escaped the hell of the Red waste by simply flying off to a more hospitable region. Her “wake the dragon” dream suggests just such a scenario – an escape from terror when she grows wings and flies to the red door. Perhaps the red door represents the way out of “hell.”

Similarly, Jon Snow’s ascension of the Wall with the troupe of wildlings can be interpreted as an escape from the frozen hell beyond the Wall. Nevertheless, not all survived the ascension. When Mance Rayder searches for the Horn of Winter, he opens up graves and releases the shades of  the dead into the world. Is this a good thing or not? Will the shades contribute to further agony or is their release equivalent to finding peace and freedom? Are the Kings of Winter confined to a frozen hell because their iron swords prevent them from rising beyond the grave?

The Eyrie then also offers glimpses into “heaven and hell,” implied by the flying falcon and the descent through the moon door.

Watery hells: the Shrouded Lord offers those who can make him laugh a boon. Is this boon a release from the watery hell to another level? Tyrion who in his role as a fool symbolically makes the Shrouded Lord laugh escapes the hell of contracting greyscale. Jon Connington does not.
Aeron Damphair is drowned but defies his watery hell, returning to life to become a prophet. Patchface does not survive his watery hell unscathed and becomes a prophet of sorts. Here we have a transition from hell, from the evil sinner to redemption.

Davos is interesting because he survives three hells in a row. Fire, water and the spears of the Merling King. Davos is also the character to follow for more insights to surviving various levels of hell as well as to the concept of punishment and reward which is intrinsic to the concept of hell itself. Davos starts off as a smuggler, an illegal activity that takes place mainly at night. He “transcends” between the waters and the land to carry out his missions and paradoxically, his smuggling activities in the “nightlands” turn out to be his salvation as well. Accordingly, Stannis punishes him for his sins and rewards him for his good deed – the first step out of “hell.” If dungeons are also part of the underworld theme of hell, then his stints in the dungeons of Dragonstone and the Wolf’s Den are also representations of times spent in hell. The next hell he is sent to is Skagos, believed to be populated by a primitive cannibalistic peoples.  

 

Every decent hell has its recruiters, overseers and its guides. Septa Mordane oversees Arya’s penance – sewing through winter in a frozen wasteland. The masters of Slaver’s Bay are responsible for their slaves. Lady Stoneheart is a “master,” the BWB her recruiters. Lord Beric was also a “master” but he advocated justice rather than vengeance. Souls are given a chance to redeem themselves via a trial. The Dothraki “recruit” souls for the hell of slavery. They capture and pass on. Gregor Clegane is also a “recruiter,” while Sandor goes from recruiter to guide. Craster recruits his own sons and passes them on to a deeper level of the frozen hell. Arya is a “master.” She passes the sentence and carries it out as well. The HoBaW tries to break this maxim of hers.

There are “spirit guides” as well, most notably some holy men such as Septon Meribald and the brothers on the Quiet Isle, Aeron Damphair, the High Sparrow and perhaps the fool characters. Littlefinger is a recruiter / guide. The bleeding star guides Dany through hell. The Undying say they sent it so perhaps they are the guides. Mother Mole recruits souls for Hardhome. 

This post is getting too long. To be continued in a follow-up comment.