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Thor: Love and Thunder [SPOILERS]


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Apparently they change their mind a lot. In addition to reshoots, this creates massive time crunches. One comment I saw was regarding Odin's death in Ragnarok. Originally that took place in an urban setting. They decided to change it to cliffs on the Irish Sea or whatever fairly late and it was kind of a nightmare. In one of the trailers for Ragnarok, the urban setting is still in it. The change came after.

Spider Man-NWH apparently had VFX work completed the week of the release. This is one of the reasons I don't get excited about trailers with janky VFX. When the trailer is released it isn't even finished yet. A perfect example is Darkseid in the first ZSJL trailer compared to the film. They were clearly still putting the finishing touches on him. Mind you, this was at a time when live action film productions were all shut down due to Covid and VFX houses were kind of desperate for work. 

James Cameron, on the other hand, has a reputation for being extremely demanding but he's a director who can work pretty autonomously and who knows what he wants.  He also has a VFX background and is a bit of a polymath so maybe he has more of an appreciation for scope creep and the kinds of decisions that effect quality/cost/timing.

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13 hours ago, RumHam said:

Ah, that was me who didn't get that. Does that make sense though? He does give them "the power of Thor (for a limited time only) right? So why would Zeus' lightning bolt factor into it?

Well, I think I would make the following two remarks in reply:

1. Thor himself states that his powers are very similar to those of Zeus (He even says something along the lines of "I based my act on this guy"). When empowering the child soldiers, he therefore passes on  magic (whether his own or Zeus, doesn't really matter because they are both lightning powers), but he does so using a tool of Zeus (hence the Zeus yellow color coding).
2. I bolded tool in the previous remark, because it is the new tool that gives Thor new options. They make a big deal about how powerful Zeus' bolt is in the film and that is illustrated here beautifully by the fact that Thor can use it to do stuff he couldn't do with either Mjolnir or Stormbreaker. 

To use an analogy, if I had an axe and a hammer, I could do lots of stuff with it, but if someone were to ask me to boil potatoes with them I'd probably prefer a pan as a tool. 

EDIT: I just thought of a better one. Imagine I'm King Arthur and a dragon invades Britain. I have my magical sword Excalibur, but it isn't enough to handle the problem. So I embark on a mythical quest and at the end I receive a magical AK-47 to take on the issue. It gives me options I didn't have before with Excalibur ;) 

Edited by Veltigar
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I saw it last night and enjoyed it, even though it seemed all over the place, tonally. Some whole scenes seemed to be based on the director's whim of the day. The Sif scene especially, but also the reunion scene between Thor and Jane. The exaggerated disbelief in "JANE?!?" was a bit over the top.

I do think that they could've leaned into Korg's storytelling framing device to explain the tonal inconsistencies. Like having the exaggerated "Jane?!?" followed by being challenged by a kid, so they replay it with a more down to earth version. I guess that may have been the idea, but over the course of 2 hours, it's hard to carry that.

I liked the vibe between Valkyrie and Jane. Their bond felt real and fun. After all, a bluetooth speaker is a must for every adventure.

And I didn't realize that the actress for Love is Hemsworth's daughter. That explains the rapport they had. Yes, it's another Lone Wolf and Cub pairing, but I support it in future films. 

While I'd love to see Taika come back for Thor 5, I do hope he reigns in the outlandish stuff a bit. Ragnarok carried a better balance of humor. Thor: L&T reminded me how King Kong showed Peter Jackson's unrestrained tendencies. A bit of restraint is not a bad thing.

 

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I haven't seen the new Thor yet, probably won't get a chance till its on Disney + , but I have been reading Thor: God of Thunder, the comic that at least inspired the Gorr the God butcher bits. Have to say its absolutely excellent, and I think I will be pretty disappointed at how little of it will be in the movie.. thats my assumption.

Edited by Heartofice
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1 hour ago, Myrddin said:

The Sif scene especially

Yea that stood out for me as well. She’s literally dying but the scene felt closer in tone to the play that Matt Damon and co were in.

Don’t really have much to add to everyone else’s thoughts, it was pretty good but a bit all over the place. Possibly Ragnarok benefited from following Thor 2, and so it was great to see them finally find the right tone for Thor. This is basically Ragnarok 2. It was nice to see the happy period of Thor and Jane’s relationship though, which I assume is between Dark World and Age of Ultron.

Phase 4 just really needs to start being about something. Phase 1 was obviously just teeing up the Avengers, but Phase 2 and 3 weren’t just ‘the stones’. SHIELD collapsed, the Avengers broke up. I suppose we have the introduction of the multiverse, but even that hasn’t actually affected 616 really. You could basically watch anything from Phase 4 after Endgame and not need a primer, because not much has really happened. Weird considering Phase 4 (movies and D+ shows) has a longer runtime than Phases 1, 2 and 3 (movies) combined.

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Phase 4 just really needs to start being about something. Phase 1 was obviously just teeing up the Avengers, but Phase 2 and 3 weren’t just ‘the stones’. SHIELD collapsed, the Avengers broke up. I suppose we have the introduction of the multiverse, but even that hasn’t actually affected 616 really. You could basically watch anything from Phase 4 after Endgame and not need a primer, because not much has really happened. Weird considering Phase 4 (movies and D+ shows) has a longer runtime than Phases 1, 2 and 3 (movies) combined.

Every movie in Phase 1 had a post-credit scene pointing toward Avengers team up. With the exception of Shang-Chi and maybe WandVision, the post credit scenes for phase 4 all point to... nothing beyond a single sequel (which was done in the past too). 

  • WandaVision: Monica joining SWORD and Wanda getting ready to be the villain
  • Falcon and WS: Sharon will return
  • Black Widow: Yelena being recruited to go after Hawkeye (and maybe join black ops Avengers)
  • Shang-Chi: Wong introduces S-C to Avengers to study Rings and Ten Rings organization crime will return
  • Eternals: Black Knight epilogue and Starfox* recruits Eternals
  • Dr Strange: Clea* recruits Strange
  • Thor: Hercules* being sent after Thor

* = introduction/cameo of unknown MCU character

Compare with Phase 1, they all had Coulson, Fury, or Stark putting together a team. Most Phase 2 and 3 included Infinity Stone links.

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

It was nice to see the happy period of Thor and Jane’s relationship though, which I assume is between Dark World and Age of Ultron.

Most of it at least. Thor claims they're still together in Age of Ultron and at the end leaves earth, I thought, until Ragnorok. So either he was not ready to admit she dumped him via a note, or he set out in search of the infinity stones and then realized "oh wait I have a girlfriend" and came back to earth. 

I'd rather believe the latter, and that he then roomed with Daryl. Though there's no way to rectify the Banner scenes in those videos with the main timeline of the MCU, where Banner was definitely on Sakaar during Civil War. In Civil War no one knows where Thor is, but that could still work. He doesn't have a phone!

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26 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

scene pointing toward Avengers team up.

This is what’s missing really. We need to see someone acknowledge that there doesn’t seem to be an Avengers at the moment. Does anyone care? Are they worried? Is Sam constantly getting asked if he’s forming a team? It’s also really weird that we’ve met pretty much all of a Young Avengers team, and yet a Young Avengers film would feel completely unearned at this point.

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8 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Thor claims they're still together in Age of Ultron and at the end leaves earth, I thought, until Ragnorok. So either he was not ready to admit she dumped him via a note, or he set out in search of the infinity stones and then realized "oh wait I have a girlfriend" and came back to earth. 

Yeah between Ultron and Ragnarok you definitely get the impression Thor's just been out in the cosmos searching for whomever has been messing with them and the stones (which is his reasoning for leaving at the end of Ultron).

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15 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Apparently they change their mind a lot. In addition to reshoots, this creates massive time crunches. One comment I saw was regarding Odin's death in Ragnarok. Originally that took place in an urban setting. They decided to change it to cliffs on the Irish Sea or whatever fairly late and it was kind of a nightmare. In one of the trailers for Ragnarok, the urban setting is still in it. The change came after.

Spider Man-NWH apparently had VFX work completed the week of the release. This is one of the reasons I don't get excited about trailers with janky VFX. When the trailer is released it isn't even finished yet. A perfect example is Darkseid in the first ZSJL trailer compared to the film. They were clearly still putting the finishing touches on him. Mind you, this was at a time when live action film productions were all shut down due to Covid and VFX houses were kind of desperate for work. 

James Cameron, on the other hand, has a reputation for being extremely demanding but he's a director who can work pretty autonomously and who knows what he wants.  He also has a VFX background and is a bit of a polymath so maybe he has more of an appreciation for scope creep and the kinds of decisions that effect quality/cost/timing.

It's common [and smart practice] to outsource VFX through a few or even several vendors depending on the total shots required for a project. I'm not as hip on 3D as I am 2D, mind, but the former is still very time intensive if you want quality. I mean, if all your interior and exterior set modelling is done, output of VFX should be decent provided there aren't too many physics involved. But even so [spreads hands] it's no small amount of work. Hundreds of people. The industry needs unionization.

Tweaks are normal in production, whereas relatively huge changes within a few weeks of release is absurd. Sounds like Marvel has a perplexing management problem there if this shit is as consistent as reported.  

  

Edited by JGP
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I think that was kind of meh.

And of course we have a moron making the wish in the end - if you are dying, too, moron, then wish your daughter should have never died, not that she comes back alive. That way things go much better for you!

And in context - if you want the god to take care of your child if you are dying ... why not wish that his girlfriend doesn't die. You know ... so that your kid does have a surrogate father and a surrogate mother and not just the former.

Also - Christian Bale shouldn't have needed Thor to convince him to want his daughter back. That should have been his agenda from the start with the heroes only misjudging his motivation.

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38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that was kind of meh.

And of course we have a moron making the wish in the end - if you are dying, too, moron, then wish your daughter should have never died, not that she comes back alive. That way things go much better for you!

And in context - if you want the god to take care of your child if you are dying ... why not wish that his girlfriend doesn't die. You know ... so that your kid does have a surrogate father and a surrogate mother and not just the former.

Also - Christian Bale shouldn't have needed Thor to convince him to want his daughter back. That should have been his agenda from the start with the heroes only misjudging his motivation.

Pretty sure you can't trick Eternity with multiple wishes- "I wish eternal wishes forever" isn't really a thing you can pull off with a nearly omnipotent being.

Also, if he wishes she never died, then he never becomes the God Butcher, and he isn't there in the first place to make the wish. Or maybe if it does, who knows how time-travel works in the MCU- not even the makers.

And if it was Gorr's goal from the start (I doubt he would have heard about Eternity from the start rather than until much later) to resurrect his daughter, no need to go in all that killing gods in the first place.

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2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Pretty sure you can't trick Eternity with multiple wishes- "I wish eternal wishes forever" isn't really a thing you can pull off with a nearly omnipotent being.

Didn't say anything about multiple wishes but I'd say that there is no reason a wish could not have two clauses.

2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Also, if he wishes she never died, then he never becomes the God Butcher, and he isn't there in the first place to make the wish. Or maybe if it does, who knows how time-travel works in the MCU- not even the makers.

Who cares? He could have tried and if it didn't work that way he could have fallen back to wishing his daughter back.

2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

And if it was Gorr's goal from the start (I doubt he would have heard about Eternity from the start rather than until much later) to resurrect his daughter, no need to go in all that killing gods in the first place.

Oh, he did want to kill those gods ... but he could have wanted to go Eternity once he learned about because he wanted his daughter back.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Didn't say anything about multiple wishes but I'd say that there is no reason a wish could not have two clauses.

This is a hilarious distinction.  "I will only ask one wish, but consult the appendix for the multiple clauses and subsections therein."

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

This is a hilarious distinction.  "I will only ask one wish, but consult the appendix for the multiple clauses and subsections therein."

Yes, okay, then let me phrase it properly: 'Change the multiverse in such way that Jane Foster isn't mortally ill and my daughter doesn't die.'

I mean, you can whine about that, but magical wish fulfillment isn't really a thing, so there are no rules how this works.

Or, hey, just grant me the power to bring my daughter back from death and heal Jane Foster.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, okay, then let me phrase it properly: 'Change the multiverse in such way that Jane Foster isn't mortally ill and my daughter doesn't die.'

I mean, you can whine about that, but magical wish fulfillment isn't really a thing, so there are no rules how this works.

Oh yeah, I wasn't really attacking your logic.  As you say, the conception of "one wish" in magical wish fulfillment is entirely abstract - i.e. is asking to save a billion lives the same as asking to save one life, or not?

I just thought your phrasing of it as "two clauses" was very amusing.

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I kind of think it was a mistake to trot out Eternity this early. We more or less just got a Watcher, Celestials, a multiverse. I also saw the Galactus' sihouette before Eternity's full reveal. This tease stop gap abrupt other reveal is getting old. I saw the most recent Thor movie but not very interested in the next one. Thor got a happy ending for now but they do play up the losses he's had, this background ennui. Maybe his kid is all he needs and this is a surprise send off. Retire the jersey. 

I honestly forgot how big an impact covid had on the entertainment industry, so the reminder was good. Feels like maybe they're a little lost right now. The space and variety stuff is cool, so F4 to move that along. It would've been a good reflection if Marvel had been able to do Mutants before expanding so much, but I understand [I think] why it played out this way. 

The Mutants have to be top priority. Get that done. 

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