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Thor: Love and Thunder [SPOILERS]


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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

 

I'm not sure about this concern. Obviously the anchors aren't gonna be 1 for 1 but Dr Strange has replaced Iron Man pretty directly, and though he's not stepping into anyone's shoes, Spidey seems like a fairly anchor character too. Obviously Black Panther was going to be one, and would likely have been a sorta replacement for Captain America since he's also a national icon with a strong moral code that he struggles with. Marvel would be more akin to Thor in this scenario, a link to the cosmic side. And of course Captain America has an actual replacement too, direct and in-story. 

The problem isn't that the characters aren't there, we just don't see where they're going and aren't sure if Marvel know, because we haven't had the next Avengers or any clear builds into it. I'm fine with that though.  
 

The problem is that the characters are just less compelling, interesting and charismatics than the old ones. They haven't got a factory line of characters and actors that means they can just replace what they had. All the talk was that Marvel could swap in new characters easily, but it hasn't been the case.

Dr Strange was always positioned as a poor mans Tony Stark, and even after appearances in numerous movies I still have very little concept of who Steven Strange is, other than being incompetent. Captain Marvel, who I think they hoped the whole universe could be centred around, is a fun free zone and Brie Larson only brings a smug energy to the character that is pretty off-putting. I'm not even sure who else there really is at the moment?

Shang Chi, an ok movie, but held up more by its supporting cast, the central character is cookie cutter. There is only so much you can do with Thor, and you can't build a franchise around Natalie Portman. Eternals was a washout. Then all of the tv show characters have hardly shown themselves to be ready for the big screen. 

Yes there is a problem that Marvel haven't been able to build up to anything, but they also don't have the ingredients any more. If they put together a new avengers movie now based on any new character they have introduced after Endgame, I don't think I would watch it, it would sound utterly dry.

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There is a lot of pessimism here I'd say, which is weird given the fact that they despite having their early clunkers as well, the MCU did manage to "pull off" phase 1.

Just do what I do if your apprehensive. Just go and see the films that have good reviews and interest you and leave the rest behind you. Hope they'll pull off another team up and then rinse and repeat. 

I still haven't seen either of the two Dr. Strange films for instance, as they have zero interest to me. I did give Thor 3 a chance due to good reviews and because I liked it I went to see 4 and was absolutely not disappointed. 

 

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Anyone at that point that thinks Stephen Strange and Tony Stark are the same characters is just being petty or lazy. Tony is the life of the party, the guy who's at the center stage of everything, making quips and having fun with his bros. Strange is the guy who's in a corner with his back against the wall, who can't relax for one moment because of all the things he saw and knows, and would rather no one even know he existed.

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7 hours ago, Heartofice said:

...and you can't build a franchise around Natalie Portman. 

Eh, why not? I mean it doesn't seem like they're doing that but I don't get your reasoning.

It seems like they're going for a Young Avengers thing. But they haven't announced it yet and all these kids aren't going to stay young forever.

Edited by RumHam
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7 minutes ago, RumHam said:
8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

 

Eh, why not? I mean it doesn't seem like they're doing that but I don't get your reasoning

Because she has the onscreen personality of a plank of wood in most of her movies… with one or two exceptions 

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18 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Anyway, I don't think Thor is going to be central to the MCU and outside of his own solo movies he will swing into GoTG and Avengers team ups when needed to provide some cosmic-powered and comic relief. 

Not sure I agree with that.  He's arguably their most popular character right now with Captain America, Iron Man, and the Boseman Black Panther gone, and with Spider-Man on a time-share with Sony.  Hemsworth doesn't seem to be growing tired with the role either.  It's honestly the perfect role for him, at least since Waititi figured out the character in Ragnarok. 

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Apparently the Marvel presentation at SDCC should set up Phase 5 and make the next big thing clearer. Phase 4 I think has been very much a new introduction era, bringing in new characters and keeping old ones ticking over. Phase 5 will be the transition to a bigger threat. At the moment all the smart money is on Secret Wars, which has all kinds of advantages (including the possibility of employing the multiverse angle to bring in alternate versions of Captain America and Iron Man if those actors want a huge payday).

I think ironically the problem they have at the moment is almost too many likely villains, with Kang, Wanda, Kingpin and the presumably incoming Dr. Doom all capable of being elevated to a major multi-film villain, if Secret Wars is not the direction they're going in.

On the charisma issue, I think it's there to a certain extent, but I also think they can overcome it. They can do an Avengers Reassemble thing and bring back together Thor, Hulk, Dr. Strange, White Vision, Hawkeye, Falcon/Captain America, Winter Soldier, a possibly rehabilitated Scarlet Witch and a post-time-hopping Loki, and you have a reasonable all-star team there. You're really only lacking Iron Man and OG Captain America. And you're not tapping Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, Moon Knight, She-Hulk, Neo-Hawkeye, Neo-Black Widow, the Eternals, Shang-Chi, Black Knight, Blade or the Fantastic Four, all of whom (by that point) would also be available.

1 hour ago, briantw said:

Not sure I agree with that.  He's arguably their most popular character right now with Captain America, Iron Man, and the Boseman Black Panther gone, and with Spider-Man on a time-share with Sony.  Hemsworth doesn't seem to be growing tired with the role either.  It's honestly the perfect role for him, at least since Waititi figured out the character in Ragnarok. 

One issue is that Hemsworth is getting older, whilst Thor is clearly not supposed to be. In fact, I thought Hemsworth was a few years older than he actually is (38). They can get maybe 2-3 more movies out of him with great makeup and maybe CGI, and then it'll get tougher to keep him in the role (without some kind of cheesy in-universe reason to explain his aging).

The better approach is to kill Thor off at some point when it will have maximum impact and have someone else inherit the mantle.

Edited by Werthead
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Yeah people have been talking about RDJ and Evans coming back since basically the day after Endgame came out. It remains waaay too soon for that. I wouldn't even try to top Thanos for a while, I kinda like the idea of 3-4 smaller big bads each doing their own thing and crossing paths as their interests align or conflict. 

Still bummed there's no Oscorp in the MCU! I guess Norman could still exist and just be less public. 

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5 hours ago, Werthead said:

One issue is that Hemsworth is getting older, whilst Thor is clearly not supposed to be. In fact, I thought Hemsworth was a few years older than he actually is (38). They can get maybe 2-3 more movies out of him with great makeup and maybe CGI, and then it'll get tougher to keep him in the role (without some kind of cheesy in-universe reason to explain his aging).

The better approach is to kill Thor off at some point when it will have maximum impact and have someone else inherit the mantle.

The only A-Listers left from phase 1 are Hemsworth, Jackson and Ruffalo. All three of those guys have been in those roles for over a decade now. Are they going to be playing them for another decade? Not likely. Hell, Jackson might be retired from acting in 10 years. 

I saw a blurb on twitter that said Hemsworth and Waititi were surprised at the "Thor will return" script at the end of this movie. Like, "huh? Really?" Anyway, I don't see Waititi directing the next Thor unless it happens like, five years from now. Between his Star Wars film and Incal he's going to have a full plate. He also has an Akira movie at WB that I guess is on hold, maybe. I know they were about to go into production when he went to do T:L&T and apparently this caught WB by surprise. 

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

Yeah people have been talking about RDJ and Evans coming back since basically the day after Endgame came out. It remains waaay too soon for that.

It's inevitable that they'd return for a cameo at some point. 

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11 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Phase 5 will obviously see the X-men involved, and I imagine everything will revolve more or less on that. I doubt we'll have a Secret Wars type of movie until much late.r

Disney will want another $2 billion+ movie at some point and it's already been three years since Endgame. I don't seem them being happy to wait another five years or more for another major event MCU movie.

I think it's more likely that Secret Wars will be the culminating event of Phase 4/5 and the mutants will come in force in Phase 6. Of course, the Ms. Marvel revelation that mutants might already be a thing in the setting might be a clue they are going to go earlier than that.

6 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

The only A-Listers left from phase 1 are Hemsworth, Jackson and Ruffalo. All three of those guys have been in those roles for over a decade now. Are they going to be playing them for another decade? Not likely. Hell, Jackson might be retired from acting in 10 years. 

I saw a blurb on twitter that said Hemsworth and Waititi were surprised at the "Thor will return" script at the end of this movie. Like, "huh? Really?" Anyway, I don't see Waititi directing the next Thor unless it happens like, five years from now. Between his Star Wars film and Incal he's going to have a full plate. He also has an Akira movie at WB that I guess is on hold, maybe. I know they were about to go into production when he went to do T:L&T and apparently this caught WB by surprise. 

I think Waititi was making progress with the Akira movie but it was like pulling teeth, and it had cost an immense amount of work to get the studio to agree to set the film in Japan with a mostly Japanese cast. I think Waititi might have realised it was going to be a lot of work and a lot of politics to make that movie work and he may have bailed on it when realising it could turn into a massive poisoned chalice.

Edited by Werthead
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8 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

It's inevitable that they'd return for a cameo at some point. 

For sure, I just think if it's too soon it blunts the impact and feeds into the idea that death in these things has no weight to it.

I wouldn't mind old man cap showing up to give Sam a pep talk in Captain America 4, but tony should stay dead for like ten years in my opinion. 

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Disney will want another $2 billion+ movie at some point and it's already been three years since Endgame. I don't seem them being happy to wait another five years or more for another major event MCU movie.

I think it's more likely that Secret Wars will be the culminating event of Phase 4/5 and the mutants will come in force in Phase 6. Of course, the Ms. Marvel revelation that mutants might already be a thing in the setting might be a clue they are going to go earlier than that.

 

Phase 6? Wait like 10 years for the X-men? I doubt it. Besides, done properly, a X-men movie certainly has Infinity War/Endgame potential at least.

More than likely X-men is the phase 5, and Secret Wars is pretty much the ultimate team-up movie with everyone, being a send off to the older MCU members.

 

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3 hours ago, RumHam said:

and feeds into the idea that death in these things has no weight to it.

That's pretty much how the comics are.  No one is ever truly dead.

Edited by briantw
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4 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Phase 6? Wait like 10 years for the X-men? I doubt it. Besides, done properly, a X-men movie certainly has Infinity War/Endgame potential at least.

More than likely X-men is the phase 5, and Secret Wars is pretty much the ultimate team-up movie with everyone, being a send off to the older MCU members.

Bearing in mind 2020 was a washout, Phase 4 will basically be over by the end of 2023 after just three years, so Phase 5 I expect will be 2024-26 or thereabouts and Phase 6 they can kick off around 2027.

My sense is that they're just starting to lay pipe now for the mutants reveal, but in the meantime the multiverse thing is their main focus and that will culminate in Secret Wars (with the Fantastic Four popping up alongside or just before), and the mutants can properly get going afterwards. I think taking everything they're doing at the moment and layering X-Men on the top of it will get pretty unwieldy, pretty fast (mind you, I was of the opinion that if they thought X-Men was on the cards, they should have never gone for the Eternals in the first place, but I think Eternals was in development before the Fox deal was done).

Edited by Werthead
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Yikes.

According to Box Office Mojo, Friday estimates for T:L&T indicate and 80% drop from last Friday. Oof. I might get to see it on D+ next week after all. 

6 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think Waititi was making progress with the Akira movie but it was like pulling teeth, and it had cost an immense amount of work to get the studio to agree to set the film in Japan with a mostly Japanese cast. I think Waititi might have realised it was going to be a lot of work and a lot of politics to make that movie work and he may have bailed on it when realising it could turn into a massive poisoned chalice.

Yeah, Akira isn't happening. I don't know about the behind the scenes shenanigans, but I remember an article in Variety or whatever that pre-production was all but done and they were very close to starting production. WB was left somewhat poleaxed by the whole situation. Actually, this might be for the best.

The only other instance I can recall that's similar is Bryan Singer and X-Men 3; although they may have been even further along when he bolted for Superman Returns. 

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50 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Bearing in mind 2020 was a washout, Phase 4 will basically be over by the end of 2023 after just three years, so Phase 5 I expect will be 2024-26 or thereabouts and Phase 6 they can kick off around 2027.

My sense is that they're just starting to lay pipe now for the mutants reveal, but in the meantime the multiverse thing is their main focus and that will culminate in Secret Wars (with the Fantastic Four popping up alongside or just before), and the mutants can properly get going afterwards. I think taking everything they're doing at the moment and layering X-Men on the top of it will get pretty unwieldy, pretty fast (mind you, I was of the opinion that if they thought X-Men was on the cards, they should have never gone for the Eternals in the first place, but I think Eternals was in development before the Fox deal was done).

I don't see any of these as impediments. The over arching storyline or drive can continue on, and meanwhile I'd start out with some establishing properties first, some solos. Lower level more personal type plots. Maybe the Summers, the Morlocks, and the like. There's enough hero worship in the existing MCU that the Mutant panic wouldn't be much of a deal. Initially. 

You can't do Secret Wars without the X-Men, or Doom, many others.     

Edited by JGP
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2 hours ago, JGP said:

You can't do Secret Wars without the X-Men, or Doom, many others.     

I think you need Doom (he's kind of a major player in all the different versions) but I think you can hold off on the X-Men, at least to a point.

Assuming this is more likely to be nodding at the recent Secret Wars rather than the original (the same as how Guardians and Ultron both took recent comic book incarnations as their inspiration, not the originals), I suspect they're looking at using it in a similar way, to collapse the multiverses into one timeline again, and basically close the problems that began with the TVA's kind-of-destruction in Loki.

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If they're doing it like that, Secret Wars could be where they fully introduce the X-Men as their timeline merges with the main MCU. That could explain how mutants have been a big enough thing for a long enough time that anti-mutant prejudice is a thing (which you need to have for a lot of X-Men stories to work) even though mutants have so far not existed in the MCU timeline.

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