US Politics: Cancelling Democracy

[Zorral]

Talk about Roe being bad law?

Overturning it being the worst law, if only because 50 + pregnancies of 10 year old girls are reported every year in Ohio alone.  That's just those reported . . . .  And yes, as the child is 10 years old there can be absolutely no blathering about consent because legally no matter what IT IS RAPE because 10 year old legally are not able to consent.

3 weeks into the overule and so many women -- and children -- are literally at high risk of death because the meds and procedures cannot be accessed by this good law.

 

[Mindwalker]

Secret Service Deleted Jan. 6 Text Messages After Oversight Officials Requested Them

A letter given to the January 6 committee says the erasure took place shortly after oversight officials requested the agency’s electronic communications.

The Secret Service erased text messages from January 5 and January 6, 2021, according to a letter given to the January 6 committee and reviewed by The Intercept. The letter was originally sent by the Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General to the House and Senate homeland security committees. Though the Secret Service maintains that the text messages were lost as a result of a “device-replacement program,” the letter says the erasure took place shortly after oversight officials requested the agency’s electronic communications. (...)

A top Secret Service official allegedly involved in the attempt to spirit away Pence on January 6 remains in a leadership position at the agency. ...

https://theintercept.com/2022/07/14/jan-6-texts-deleted-secret-service/

[Week]

Other than being 100% correct and a brilliant musician, I just love the exchange

 

"You're about my age, well maybe a bit younger."

"I'm 45."

A bit younger indeed.

[LongRider]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

I saw that post, guess I just didn't understand what exactly it entailed.  Frankly I still don't.  And July 8, not Jan 7, c'mon!

Damn typos!          

[James Arryn]

This is going to be an uncomfortable, unpopular post. 
 

I’m anti-abortion. It’s the least comfortable of my positions, it’s by a mile the position I hold that those who agree with me mostly do it for the wrong reasons or bullshit reasons. And it’s a position I know that can hurt a lot of people. I really wish I did not hold this position, tbh, especially the way I hold it, but I do. I don’t remotely chose to oppose abortion as a right over a wrong, just the least deadly* of the horrible options.  

So, here’s my position: human life is my prime motivation in all things. I am a million % against the death penalty, as you all know I remonstrate constantly about wars of volition and the relegation to ‘war is hell’ non-apology apologism for the countless victims of wars of acquisition, dominance, imperialism, etc. I am not a full pacifist, but close…I only believe that wars of aggression against expansive enemies should justify defensive war, or pretty much the Canadian ethos. I am against pretty much against any kind of killing there is.** 

*I do not know where human life begins. No one does. Until we do, I strongly feel that we should err on the side of not killing humans. The only but strong exception is where the mother’s life is threatened by the pregnancy/birth, again consistent with what I feel ought to be the priority. Now, most horribly, that means that the life of the child is prioritized over the woman’s right to choose even in the event of rape or similar. That’s disgusting, that is putting that victim through even more suffering and I would do anything to prevent that…except end a human life.

I am not religious, and I feel that most religious arguments against abortion either miss the point or are clearly hypocritical; to be “pro-life”…a phrase I don’t use in this context, because it’s used so hypocritically by most…while being pro-death penalty or ambivalent about aerial bombardment of civilian areas when it’s ‘our side’ doing it, that is just bankrupt to me. That’s about misogyny or power or just plain selfishness. 

Because I know what this means for women. Well, no, I don’t know know, but I intellectually can conceive of the outrage and helplessness and dehumanization of having other people legislate what I can or cannot do with my body. I understand that as a man this is much, much easier for me to say. I’ll never have to suffer the consequences to my person. I sincerely believe I would feel this way if I was a woman, but again I’ll never really know. I also know that like any law, the law I’d choose would absolutely be exploited to excercise bigoted agendas and misogyny. But to me there are other ways, though not nearly so sustained, wherein others legislate what we can and can’t do with our bodies if the result of our choices ends another’s life. 

So to me it is simply this: in the horrible choice between ending a human life and causing a human incalculable suffering for a period of time, I regretfully but sincerely choose to prioritize living over living with complete autonomy. I think the life of the child has been sloganed out of this issue, I feel that because so many used it so hypocritically, the other side has reduced the child/life/potential life to just words. I don’t think most people actually think about that aspect enough any more, it’s just dealt with in talking points or with exaggerated contrasts. Someone earlier said something like ‘this bunch of cells inside me has more rights than I do’, and that’s an example: the right to life is the only relevant right those ‘cells’ have, and you have it too. And if it’s life was a serious risk to yours, I would prioritize yours. 
 

If we ever get to a point where we can say with certainty that at X days life begins, I will fully support terminating pregnancies up to that point. But having been through the whole pregnancy/ultrasounds/etc. with my twins, not to mention our miscarriage, I can say that to my untrained eye what we were seeing on those screens was definitely life, and if it wasn’t human, what was it? Our miscarriage is, to us, a lost child, and nothing will ever take that pain away from us. But to be clear this experience did not formulate my position, it just affirmed it. 
 

This being the least comfortable of my positions, it is also the one I will never do anything about. I won’t tell people what I feel they should do unless they ask me, I won’t protest or try and shame people into agreeing with me. I sometimes feel that that betrays me some…if I feel children are being killed, why am I not trying to do something  about it? But I’ve seen the pain people I have known going through this endure and cannot find it within me to add to that. Maybe that makes me the hypocrite? I don’t know.
 

And though I thought Roe was bad law, where it was wrong was not where it was bad, imo. It was bad as it was classified, it was wrong where it addressed what is/isn’t life. They found that barring certainty we err on the side of not classifying it as life, and this to me was morally and medically wrong; early ‘fetus’ are absolutely treated as life in any other medical context except termination, and medical staff go to great lengths to try and save those lives when threatened by anything but the mother’s choice.

That said, I disagree with what the SC found recently, I find the ‘historically significant’ attribution to be not just bad law but incredibly dangerous law that will almost certainly result in more bad law to follow. I think most of them fall under the religious/misogynist class that sadly makes up most of ‘my’ side on this issue. And no 10 year old should be forced to not terminate, as that obviously presents a significant risk to her life. Not because she was raped, again…the prioritization of human life must remain whatever the cost short of human life. I know this will outage a lot of people I like. It’s a very lonely position, tbh. The people who agree with me mostly disagree with me on almost every other issue, including ones which reveal no prioritization of life, and mostly do so out of religious or other kinds of prejudice. The people who disagree with me about this are the ones I am most in synch with on most other issues. So I don’t really stand with anyone I know on this, and that’s a strange feeling. 
 

Anyways, I’ve been holding back on commenting on this topic lately and probably will mostly return to doing so, but I wanted to clarify that you can oppose abortion without being religious, and you can do so as part of a consistent prioritization on human life rather than just when it only affects others.  

**exception, adults who want to end their own lives with sustained consistency, while of healthy mind, because of contacting an incurable disease or similar should have that right, imo.

[Week]

Sounds like you really know what decision that you want to make for yourself if you are ever pregnant. Of course, assuming that you feel the same way after however you became pregnant, what your life, family, healthcare, living, and employment situations are at that time. Knowing the truth of our inability to provide and protect the above with any guarantee then your stance is indefensible beyond your own body. Even further so considering the inevitable climate calamity.

[JGP]

No one is going to tell my daughters what they can and can't do with their bodies. Men should have no opinion in this at all. It shouldn't even be a question. 

[James Arryn]

1 minute ago, Week said:

Sounds like you really know what decision that you want to make for yourself if you are ever pregnant. Of course, assuming that you feel the same way after however you became pregnant, what your life, family, healthcare, living, and employment situations are at that time. Knowing the truth of our inability to provide and protect the above with any guarantee then your stance is indefensible beyond your own body. Even further so considering the inevitable climate calamity.

Well, I’ll never know what it’s like to be pregnant, obviously. But in the few instances that come as close as I can in my life, ie pregnancy scares outside of stable relationships, I committed to full support for the child regardless of how much that was going to fuck up my life/future. If you think my income, family, etc. would move the needle on this for me, I think you are attributing a much more casual position to me than I hold. My discomfort, my frustration, my career suicide or w(e would always come second to the life of a child. As for the climate, that’s a problem because it threatens…what, exactly? Oh, right, human lives. 

[James Arryn]

6 minutes ago, JGP said:

No one is going to tell my daughters what they can and can't do with their bodies. Men should have no opinion in this at all. It shouldn't even be a question. 

I would 100% agree if there were no other life involved. Serious moral question: why can’t a mother choose to end her child’s life when it’s a week outside vs. inside? If it’s completely fucking up her life, health, income, career, etc. and can’t sustain itself…what’s the moral difference?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I would 100% agree if there were no other life involved. Serious moral question: why can’t a mother choose to end her child’s life when it’s a week outside vs. inside? If it’s completely fucking up her life, health, income, career, etc. and can’t sustain itself…what’s the moral difference?

What kind of dumb question is this?

[JGP]

I'm not interested in the moral difference, because to frame it like that is to kind of lie about it. It's a human right. Something a significant portion of American women, teenagers, and now children ffs, have lost. 

[Kalbear]

Yep doing secret negotiations with Manchin is great

 

[James Arryn]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What kind of dumb question is this?

A sincere one. If the impact on the parent is reasonable cause to terminate, why does that cause end a little later on? You can suffer just as much, or even more, by a constantly screaming baby that requires a lot of financial support, time, etc. that so impacts people’s lives that is one of the leading causes for suicide among new parents. I’m asking, morally, when that child’s life supersedes the impact on the parent, and how that point is determined, and by whom?

[Week]

8 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Well, I’ll never know what it’s like to be pregnant, obviously. But in the few instances that come as close as I can in my life, ie pregnancy scares outside of stable relationships, I committed to full support for the child regardless of how much that was going to fuck up my life/future. If you think my income, family, etc. would move the needle on this for me, I think you are attributing a much more casual position to me than I hold. My discomfort, my frustration, my career suicide or w(e would always come second to the life of a child. As for the climate, that’s a problem because it threatens…what, exactly? Oh, right, human lives. 

That's wonderful _for you_ . My wife had an abortion within the first three weeks of us dating. We were messed at the time. Barely passed exclusive, frankly. I supported her choice - either way - fully. She made her choice (inwardly, I agreed as well) and I, barely knowing her, stayed throughout check up, abortion, taking her home,.and convalescing. We've been through a lot since then. Broken up. Got back together. Moved. Married. Bought our first house. 11 years later we both would make the same choices 100/100 times. We've discussed it. Also we have some nieces and nephews who we love -- to see and then leave with our siblings at the end of the weekend.

We deserve the way to live.our lives the way we choose and not imposed on us.

 

[James Arryn]

Just now, Week said:

That's wonderful _for you_ . My wife had an abortion within the first three weeks of us dating. We were messed at the time. Barely passed exclusive, frankly. I supported her choice - either way - fully. She made her choice (inwardly, I agreed as well) and I, barely knowing her, stayed throughout check up, abortion, taking her home,.and convalescing. We've been through a lot since then. Broken up. Got back together. Moved. Married. Bought our first house. 11 years later we both would make the same choices 100/100 times. We've discussed it. Also we have some nieces and nephews who we love -- to see and then leave with our siblings at the end of the weekend.

We deserve the way to live.our lives the way we choose and not imposed on us.

 

Right, again, where we differ is that I think someone else’s rights were involved, and you don’t. 

[Week]

Barely a ball of cells. This is seriously obtuse to the point of intentionally obstinate. Is every sperm and egg sacred then? What about benefits for the living? Maternal health? You're prioritization of future, potential, life is myopic and arbitrary in the face of a often cruel and unforgiving world that does not provide health and safety for all that are already alive.

[JGP]

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Right, again, where we differ is that I think someone else’s rights were involved, and you don’t. 

None of which supersede those with the right to choose. 

[Week]

Anyway, here are your people -

 

Enjoy rubbing elbows with them.

[James Arryn]

1 minute ago, Week said:

Barely a ball of cells. This is seriously obtuse to the point of intentionally obstinate. Is every sperm and egg sacred then? What about benefits for the living? Maternal health? You're prioritization of future, potential, life is myopic and arbitrary in the face of a often cruel and unforgiving world that does not provide health and safety for all that are already alive.

No, every sperm and egg is not ‘sacred’. They are not human life. I am not certain when that ‘ball of cells’ is, and until we do know for certain, I have to prioritize on the side of not ending human lives. You told me how you felt, so I’ll ask: Are you telling me my wife and I are wrong to deeply mourn our miscarried child/bag of cells? Is it’s right to life just dependent on the opinions of the parent?

[James Arryn]

3 minutes ago, JGP said:

None of which supersede those with the right to choose. 

Life does, imo. It doesn’t for you? Where does the right to live rank for you? For me it’s our first, most basic right. 

But if not, if the right to choose is paramount to the right to live, if abortion is ever legalized again you will fully support the right of the mother to kill anyone who tries to prevent her abortion?