The Winds of Winter: The Latest Info (updated 10 July 2022)

[Morte]

13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It won't be a single chapter but things will move like ASOS Dany IV and there will be nothing wrong with it. We were in the turn to fire and blood stage, and that's done, now it's the conquest of Essos.

Even if Martin does somehow manage to get back to the pacing of ASOS, there are so many plots hanging in midair now, that it will at the very least take TWoW to get to a point, at which Dany can leave Essos without it feeling rushed.

And all the other storylines are also in (dire) need of space to be told, as @Lord Varys pointed out, not even Aegon can be dealed with in just two JonCon and three Arianne chapters without looking like a filler.

There is so much that has to happen, that we are running out of pages with just two books left.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm always taking the perspective of the story and its scope, not the possibility of it actually being written. But this book series would be an utter joke if everything were wrapped up too quickly.

It is the complexity that makes it compelling and that has to play out.

Of course, and story-wise you are right. The question is, whether GRRM is able and willing to deliver.

[sifth]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure enough. That's one of the biggest mysteries at this point and our inability to answer it greatly affects our ability to predict the future story. Nearly everything could happen there because it is magic and we don't understand the rules at all.

I must say, though, that the one reference to the hell-horns of Valyria in FaB doesn't make me look to Victarion's plan with confidence (ditto with Moqorro talking about the glory that's awaiting him). Dany isn't there. She won't hear the horn. It isn't going to be her doom. But Vic is there. He certainly will hear the horn. And it could very well be the last thing he hears in his life.

 

So what exactly are these hell-horns mentioned in Fire and Blood you're talking about? I read the book only once and really haven't had an interest to read it again. I mean Vic has technically already heard the horn, when it was blown at the kingsmoot, so just hearing it doesn't kill people. So far the only person killed by the horn was the guy who blew it.

[chrisdaw]

47 minutes ago, Morte said:

Even if Martin does somehow manage to get back to the pacing of ASOS, there are so many plots hanging in midair now, that it will at the very least take TWoW to get to a point, at which Dany can leave Essos without it feeling rushed.

No not at all, the leg work has been done and the plot points are set up to be knocked over.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

So what exactly are these hell-horns mentioned in Fire and Blood you're talking about? I read the book only once and really haven't had an interest to read it again. I mean Vic has technically already heard the horn, when it was blown at the kingsmoot, so just hearing it doesn't kill people. So far the only person killed by the horn was the guy who blew it.

We have no idea what the hell-horns are, they are just ominously mentioned in one sentence:

Quote

His Grace grieved for Prince Aemon until the end of his days, but the Old King never dreamed that Aemon’s death in 92 AC would be like the hellhorns of Valyrian legend, bringing death and destruction down on all those who heard their sound.

Make of that what you will. The implication I get from that is that the Dragonbinder horn won't work the way Victarion expects ... and that it also won't smoothen things out for the various POVs but be a further complication.

1 hour ago, Morte said:

Of course, and story-wise you are right. The question is, whether GRRM is able and willing to deliver.

I'm pretty sure he is willing to deliver. He deliberately introduced new big players in AFfC (Euron and to a lesser degree the new High Septon) and ADwD (Aegon and his entire entourage) and literally nothing in the Meereen storyline of ADwD indicates that even tried reduce or simplify the scope of that story. He let it play out as he think it should, giving it the size and scope if it was a real city which had just been conquered by a foreigner.

There isn't the slightest indication that his writing style would just magically change for the next book - more so in light of the fact that this would have most likely resulted in him finishing TWoW much faster. Touching on and dealing with the easy and predictable plot points in a simplified story is much easier done than the trial-and-error writing style he actually uses.

For me the non-existent Others plot and Daenerys being further away from Westeros than ever in ADwD was the big issue that made it clear that this story couldn't be wrapped up quickly. We could have been at the point some think TWoW will reach at the end of ADwD already ... if the decision to go to Westeros had been reached there. And if the Others had attacked the Wall at the end of ADwD.

But, no, that wasn't the plot, and insteads lots of new threads were introduced which now have to play out.

51 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

No not at all, the leg work has been done and the plot points are set up to be knocked over.

Sorry, but this isn't a book series were plot points are 'knocked over'. Nor death or lost battles so far did away with a particular plot point. Robb's death didn't finish the Starks, Renly's death didn't finish his people/allies, Joffrey's and Tywin's death didn't finish the Lannisters, etc.

Even your scenario of one chapter per Free City wouldn't really advance the plot - since we would need many chapters to reach the point where the decision is made to attack Free Cities. And then it is impossible to just have a string of such chapters in this book since they are not exactly all neighboring cities and Dany's armies cannot teleport from one place to the other without lots and lots of pages in-between telling us what the other characters do in the meantime.

I mean, you are aware that it took Daenerys Targaryen half of AGoT to move her ass to Vaes Dothrak, right? Now she has to get there in TWoW and then, eventually, her armies have to leave the place.

Realistically we cannot possibly expect her forces to reach Pentos or Volantis or even Meereen within the scope of one book. Not when lots and lots and lots of other POVs do stuff in the same book, and the events they participate in unfold in only a couple of days.

We should expect that the two battle leftovers from ADwD will unfold throughout the first 400-500 published pages of TWoW. During that time the Dany plot is not going to advance at all. We might just get (re-)introduced to Jhaqo and Mago.

We already saw how many chapters the Meereen battle are going to fill - and there is a further escalation expected there with the arrival of the Volantenes. The Stannis situation should also need multiple POVs to be resolved and we can expect that George will intersperse various other chapters into this battle framework, giving us first the Prologue and then the occasional Samwell, Sansa, Melisandre, Arianne, Jon Connington, and Cersei chapter to continue the other most intense dangling plotlines from ADwD. It also strikes us as obvious that Davos and Bran should feature very early in TWoW since their stories were abandoned very early in ADwD.

This book is not going to advance the plot very far. It can't.

[Lady Rhodes]

4 hours ago, Morte said:

And all the other storylines are also in (dire) need of space to be told, as @Lord Varys pointed out, not even Aegon can be dealed with in just two JonCon and three Arianne chapters without looking like a filler.

I've been thinking about this as well. I tried to make a chart with the various areas and the characters involved to see where there may be some intersection, but I am failing. It has been too long since I read Feast and Dance to recall the intricacies of all the players in all the areas.

Here is a rough sketch. If anyone would care to add, it would be nice to come up with a running list of storylines. It has been so long, I know I have forgotten some.

1. North of the Wall - Bran and company; the Others; Wildings; The Weeper; Coldhands; Benjen Stark
2. The Wall - Various Night's Watch Factions; Melisandre; Jon and Ghost; Gilly's Baby; Alys Karstark and Magnar of Thenn; Shireen, Selyse, and Patchface; The Queen's Men; Tycho Nestoris
3. The North - Stannis, Northern Clans; Various Northern Factions; Davos; Rickon and Osha; Jeyne Poole; Asha; Theon
4. The Riverlands - Brienne; Jaime; Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood; Nymeria and the Wolf Pack; Blackfish; Lannister Armies; Edmure Tully; Jeyne Westerling
5. The Iron Islands - Euron; Victarion; Theon; Asha; Aeron Damphair - I am hesitant to even make this a storyline area because their threads already heavily intersect with other storylines
6. Oldtown - Sam; Gilly; Mance's son; dead Aemon; Marwyn; Maesters; Maester Walgrave; Euron; Aeron, Pyat Pree/Qarth Warlocks; Euron's fleet; Leyton Hightower; The Mad Maid; Garlan and Wylas Tyrell; The faceless man/ Pate; Alleras the Sphinx
7. The Vale - Littlefinger; Sansa; Sweetrobin; Yohn Royce; The Lords Declarant; Harry the Heir; Mountain Clans; Ser Shadrach
8. King's Landing - Cersei; Tommen; High Sparrow; Faith Militant; Margaery; Olenna; Ser Robert Strong; Loras Tyrell; Qyburn; The Small Council
9. Dorne - Arianne; Doran; The Sandsnakes; Darkstar; Trystane; Areo Hotah
10. The Stormlands - Arianne; Aegon; Jon Con; Duck; Septa Lemore
11. Braavos - Arya; Faceless Men; Tycho Nestoris; Raff the Sweetling
12. Free Cities (Pentos, Volantis, Qarth) - The tiger uprising; Ilyrio Mopatis; Xaro Xhaon Daxos; Urrathon Nightwalker; Quaithe; Tattered Prince; Benerro
13. Slaver's Bay/Meereen - Wise Masters; Mother's Men; Unsullied; Yunish Army; Astapori Army; Tyrion; Jorah; Penny; Brown Ben Plumm; Barristan; Victarion; Marwyn; Moqorro; Tattered Prince; remains of Quentyn's crew; Viserion; Rhaegal; Quaithe; Dany
14. Dothraki Sea - Dany; Dothraki; Dosh Khaleen; Drogon

I know I am forgetting things, so add where you will.

 

[Smoke317]

On 7/13/2022 at 5:25 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jon would have to sacrifice somebody who is important to him. Daenerys sacrificed Drogo (and in a sense also Viserys and Rhaego) so for Jon it would have to Arya or any of his other 'siblings', an (unborn) child, or a lover. Think of Euron setting up his big spell by sacrificing a brother, a lover, and an unborn child of his.

 

I was excited to hear George say that things were changing organically and some major themes that he may have told the show runners could still wind up happening differently in the books.  I’m hoping Jon’s resurrection or rebirth is one of them.  My idea of how it happens plays into your Euron & Dany theory.  Dany sacrificed a witch (holy figure) and her son with King’s blood (Rhaego perhaps inadvertently) to wake dragons.  

For Jon’s awakening, I hope it’s done by Val & the Wildlings & not Mel.  Not Mel directly anyway.  Mel gave them motivation for payback when she burned Mance.  I could see the wildlings strapping Mel (holy figure) & Shireen (King’s blood) to Jon & the rest of the dead’s funeral pyre.  

And when the ashes are cleared away, the somehow unburnt Jon Snow, who was murdered,  is dead and the yet unnamed Aemon Targaryen is reborn.  He’ll have a streak of platinum in his naturally dark hair and some darker than the darkest purple eyes (to offset his future brother in arms Gerold “Darkstar” Dayne).  I’d imagine the Wildlings would quickly fall in line behind their new King.  Selyse & Shireen could even manage to escape Castle Black to Stannis (so he could still eventually burn her himself) and Mel alone could be captured?  
 

This opens the door for the possibility of Bloodraven influencing things in order to sync up Stannis sacrificing Theon (King’s blood) to the Weirwood tree and the Wildlings sacrificing Mel (holy figure) and these being the catalysts for Jon’s resurrection through a bit of Northern Magic mixed with the Red God Magic with Mel actually embracing the flames and praying for the rebirth of Azor Ahai with her own death. 

In Euron’s sample chapter we see him sacrificing Aeron (holy figure) and many other holy figures plus his own unborn son (his king’s blood).  Maybe his spells raise that dragon egg that he alleges he threw overboard?  Imagine us witnessing Euron raising that egg from the ocean in the middle of a sea battle from Aeron’s pov?  That could be a legendary chapter in ASOIAF history. Although, it’s more likely that the horn & his Valyrian armor are linked.  The dragon that hears the horn will be bonded to whoever is wearing the matching armor.  That dragon flies to Euron. So either way we could read about Euron tearing things up in a sea battle with a dragon at his command.  
 

I think Euron is that dark force that’s gonna upset the three dragons (Dany, Aegon, Aemon) prophecy and potentially bring down the wall.  He either kills Aegon or he somehow gets the Iron Fleet & potentially a dragon caught up in a Hardhome type situation?  He’d make a prime target for any Other seeking a dragon & ships (to just sail the dead around the wall).  Oh yeah, he’s also got some badass Valyrian steel armor to make a potential “Boss” Other/Night King impervious to Valyrian steel and in control of a dragon.  I still get hyped thinking about the possibilities.  I think George still has some great things in store for us readers in The Winds of Winter that will vary drastically from the HBO series.  
 

I really think he’s re-found his motivation to finish Winds by just finally deciding to completely change some major things that the show butchered and really emphasize the other parts that they cut out.  With the Jon Snow show getting his blessing, he seems to be saying he wasn’t happy with the way GOT’s stuck the landing with his characters.  So he probably feels justified in creating an entirely new ending and entirely different paths to that ending.  HBO doesn’t care.  The money from the original series is already banked.  Him creating an entirely new ending even justifies them to reboot the series in 10-15 years as the definitive GRRM version. 

[SeanF]

48 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I was excited to hear George say that things were changing organically and some major themes that he may have told the show runners could still wind up happening differently in the books.  I’m hoping Jon’s resurrection or rebirth is one of them.  My idea of how it happens plays into your Euron & Dany theory.  Dany sacrificed a witch (holy figure) and her son with King’s blood (Rhaego perhaps inadvertently) to wake dragons.  

For Jon’s awakening, I hope it’s done by Val & the Wildlings & not Mel.  Not Mel directly anyway.  Mel gave them motivation for payback when she burned Mance.  I could see the wildlings strapping Mel (holy figure) & Shireen (King’s blood) to Jon & the rest of the dead’s funeral pyre.  

And when the ashes are cleared away, the somehow unburnt Jon Snow, who was murdered,  is dead and the yet unnamed Aemon Targaryen is reborn.  He’ll have a streak of platinum in his naturally dark hair and some darker than the darkest purple eyes (to offset his future brother in arms Gerold “Darkstar” Dayne).  I’d imagine the Wildlings would quickly fall in line behind their new King.  Selyse & Shireen could even manage to escape Castle Black to Stannis (so he could still eventually burn her himself) and Mel alone could be captured?  
 

This opens the door for the possibility of Bloodraven influencing things in order to sync up Stannis sacrificing Theon (King’s blood) to the Weirwood tree and the Wildlings sacrificing Mel (holy figure) and these being the catalysts for Jon’s resurrection through a bit of Northern Magic mixed with the Red God Magic with Mel actually embracing the flames and praying for the rebirth of Azor Ahai with her own death. 

In Euron’s sample chapter we see him sacrificing Aeron (holy figure) and many other holy figures plus his own unborn son (his king’s blood).  Maybe his spells raise that dragon egg that he alleges he threw overboard?  Imagine us witnessing Euron raising that egg from the ocean in the middle of a sea battle from Aeron’s pov?  That could be a legendary chapter in ASOIAF history. Although, it’s more likely that the horn & his Valyrian armor are linked.  The dragon that hears the horn will be bonded to whoever is wearing the matching armor.  That dragon flies to Euron. So either way we could read about Euron tearing things up in a sea battle with a dragon at his command.  
 

I think Euron is that dark force that’s gonna upset the three dragons (Dany, Aegon, Aemon) prophecy and potentially bring down the wall.  He either kills Aegon or he somehow gets the Iron Fleet & potentially a dragon caught up in a Hardhome type situation?  He’d make a prime target for any Other seeking a dragon & ships (to just sail the dead around the wall).  Oh yeah, he’s also got some badass Valyrian steel armor to make a potential “Boss” Other/Night King impervious to Valyrian steel and in control of a dragon.  I still get hyped thinking about the possibilities.  I think George still has some great things in store for us readers in The Winds of Winter that will vary drastically from the HBO series.  
 

I really think he’s re-found his motivation to finish Winds by just finally deciding to completely change some major things that the show butchered and really emphasize the other parts that they cut out.  With the Jon Snow show getting his blessing, he seems to be saying he wasn’t happy with the way GOT’s stuck the landing with his characters.  So he probably feels justified in creating an entirely new ending and entirely different paths to that ending.  HBO doesn’t care.  The money from the original series is already banked.  Him creating an entirely new ending even justifies them to reboot the series in 10-15 years as the definitive GRRM version. 

Shireen being sacrificed to resurrect Jon would leave Jon feeling terribly conflicted, IMHO.

[Morte]

20 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Here is a rough sketch. If anyone would care to add, it would be nice to come up with a running list of storylines. It has been so long, I know I have forgotten some.

I think it is more or less complete, of course some locations might change and some people move somewhere else, expect maybe:

20 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

The Iron Islands - Euron; Victarion; Theon; Asha; Aeron Damphair - I am hesitant to even make this a storyline area because their threads already heavily intersect with other storylines

You were right to hesitate, as I, too, wouldn't call it a storyline area, as it plot-important habitants are essentially all spread around the globe at this moment. And while I like the Reader a lot, I really hope no storyline splits in a way, that would make people go to the Iron Isle too soon, as this would cost us another bunch of pages we don't have.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

  For Jon’s awakening, I hope it’s done by Val & the Wildlings & not Mel.  Not Mel directly anyway.  Mel gave them motivation for payback when she burned Mance.  I could see the wildlings strapping Mel (holy figure) & Shireen (King’s blood) to Jon & the rest of the dead’s funeral pyre.  

That feels like a very weird and unrealistic scenario. Not only isn't there any indication that the wildlings like to burn people alive for ... reasons, but it makes even less sense they would treat an innocent child in that way. Yes, Val views Shireen as unclean, but that means she might quickly put her out of her misery, not tie her to the funeral pyre of a guy she has literally no connection with.

More importantly, the entire scenario doesn't really convince me. Jon's death is going to weaken not strengthen the wildlings considering the whole hostage situation. And even if they overcame that ... Selyse and Melisandre had no hand in Jon's murder so they wouldn't be the enemies of the wildlings even if some of them were able to deal with Bowen Marsh and company - which I don't think they will since that would mean that Marsh was as stupid as to try to get himself killed by murdering Jon. The guy and his allies must have a plan how to seize power once Jon is dead.

6 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

And when the ashes are cleared away, the somehow unburnt Jon Snow, who was murdered,  is dead and the yet unnamed Aemon Targaryen is reborn.  He’ll have a streak of platinum in his naturally dark hair and some darker than the darkest purple eyes (to offset his future brother in arms Gerold “Darkstar” Dayne).  I’d imagine the Wildlings would quickly fall in line behind their new King.  Selyse & Shireen could even manage to escape Castle Black to Stannis (so he could still eventually burn her himself) and Mel alone could be captured? 

That sounds like bad fan fiction. Not for a moment do I believe that Jon's physical appearance is ever going to change to make him look 'more Valyrian'.

Also, Jon will never properly die. His body will be dead, yes, but his spirit will be trapped in Ghost, living his second life. His not going to come back to life via a magical sacrifice but by the way foreshadowed with Beric and Catelyn.

6 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

This opens the door for the possibility of Bloodraven influencing things in order to sync up Stannis sacrificing Theon (King’s blood) to the Weirwood tree and the Wildlings sacrificing Mel (holy figure) and these being the catalysts for Jon’s resurrection through a bit of Northern Magic mixed with the Red God Magic with Mel actually embracing the flames and praying for the rebirth of Azor Ahai with her own death.

Melisandre just became a POV character. She not going to die in a pointless ritual to bring Jon Snow. Even more so ... chances are very low that the Theon thing (if it happens) would happen around the time of Jon's funeral (assuming that happens). Theon is supposed to be sacrificed before the battle at the village and the Pink Letter presumes to have been written after Stannis was defeated.

While the letter could have been written much earlier, i.e. directly after Jeyne's escape and the revelation that Abel was Mance, it would have then been written days before Theon and Jeyne arrived at the village.

6 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

In Euron’s sample chapter we see him sacrificing Aeron (holy figure) and many other holy figures plus his own unborn son (his king’s blood).  Maybe his spells raise that dragon egg that he alleges he threw overboard?  Imagine us witnessing Euron raising that egg from the ocean in the middle of a sea battle from Aeron’s pov?  That could be a legendary chapter in ASOIAF history. Although, it’s more likely that the horn & his Valyrian armor are linked.  The dragon that hears the horn will be bonded to whoever is wearing the matching armor.  That dragon flies to Euron. So either way we could read about Euron tearing things up in a sea battle with a dragon at his command. 

Euron wants to make a spell to destroy the Redwyne fleet, not to hatch some dragon egg. At this point a dragon hatchling would be of no use to him at all. The dragons he wants are Dany's dragons.

6 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

I think Euron is that dark force that’s gonna upset the three dragons (Dany, Aegon, Aemon) prophecy and potentially bring down the wall.  He either kills Aegon or he somehow gets the Iron Fleet & potentially a dragon caught up in a Hardhome type situation?  He’d make a prime target for any Other seeking a dragon & ships (to just sail the dead around the wall).  Oh yeah, he’s also got some badass Valyrian steel armor to make a potential “Boss” Other/Night King impervious to Valyrian steel and in control of a dragon.  I still get hyped thinking about the possibilities.  I think George still has some great things in store for us readers in The Winds of Winter that will vary drastically from the HBO series.

Euron is a pretty big danger ... but he is about as far away from the dragons and the Wall as you can be. He could certainly have prepared Dragonbinder to work for him ... but I don't think the horn will cause the dragons to fly to whoever controls the horn. Or rather: Not if that person is on the far end of the world.

[Lady Rhodes]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Shireen being sacrificed to resurrect Jon would leave Jon feeling terribly conflicted, IMHO.

It would be a huge inner conflict for him, which makes it all the more likely. 
 

I realize that Jon and his possible resurrection is a heavily contested topic, first on if it will happen and second with how it was depicted on the show. But I feel there is a knee-jerk reaction to dismiss anything the show did as nonsense when there are things that it probably did get right or damn close. I think Mel resurrecting Jon is one of them. Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth:

1. Mel’s chapter in Dance is incredibly important and it is clear she knows/senses something is up with Jon. She is not omniscient, but she knows that there is something there.

2. I think that her resurrecting Jon and Jon warging into Ghost are not mutually exclusive concepts.

3. Unlike the show, Shireen and Selyse are still at the Wall.

4. Shireen burning is near destined to happen. It has been too heavily foreshadowed to not happen.
 

5. Jon has enough Wildings and Night Watch fellows that support him to protect his long enough for Mel to do it. (You only need a few people barricades in a room) OR in a way similar to Dany in Game, he is in the pyre, too, but rises unburnt. 
 

6. So, does Shireen get burnt for Jon or for another purpose and Jon’s resurrection is the unintended side effect? Also, how does Patchface factor into this?

[Lady Rhodes]

@Morte Agree about going to the Iron Islands- I hope it doesn’t happen. I don’t see what purpose it would serve. The Iron Islanders are the linchpins in other plots, connecting them (Asha and Theon with Stannis, Sam and Euron in Oldtown but also Wall through Sam, and Victorian in Slaver’s Bay) 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Shireen being sacrificed to resurrect Jon would leave Jon feeling terribly conflicted, IMHO.

Shireen belongs to Stannis.

It is a kind of understandable desire to shorten the story by trying to come up with ideas how certain plot points could be merged so the plot takes up speed ... but that's not going to happen with the Shireen sacrifice. That will have nothing to do with Jon Snow.

In fact, I cannot think about a cheaper and more silly story in context than the idea that somebody is going to grab Shireen for some pointless 'reason' to sacrifice her in any ritual pertaining to Jon ... and the idea that it will affect Jon only 'unintentionally' and Melisandre is just trying to 'resurrect' Stannis hundreds of leagues away is almost equally silly.

That's writing as bad as most of the sillier stuff in GoT.

In fact, I can't think about Shireen dying soon because it is pretty clear that whatever George has in store for Patchface will have to play out first. I don't think Patches would survive the death of his princess nor that some wildlings would want to feed and clothe and care for a lackwit.

Considering that Mel feels ominous around Patches he might actually have some role to play in the attack of the Others on the Wall and/or the eventual fall of the Wall. Although I don't know what role that could be nor how it will be set up.

I think, though, it could fit with some of my ideas about the Shivers and the Winter Fever being kind of 'magical plagues' being spread by the Others. Patches did have a strange (near-) death experience at sea ... and those plagues also came (sort of) from abroad. It might be the Others have ways to reach south of the Wall through/across the sea. After all, the Wall only stops their magic/advance on land.

18 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It would be a huge inner conflict for him, which makes it all the more likely. 
 

I realize that Jon and his possible resurrection is a heavily contested topic, first on if it will happen and second with how it was depicted on the show. But I feel there is a knee-jerk reaction to dismiss anything the show did as nonsense when there are things that it probably did get right or damn close. I think Mel resurrecting Jon is one of them. Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth:

1. Mel’s chapter in Dance is incredibly important and it is clear she knows/senses something is up with Jon. She is not omniscient, but she knows that there is something there.

2. I think that her resurrecting Jon and Jon warging into Ghost are not mutually exclusive concepts.

3. Unlike the show, Shireen and Selyse are still at the Wall.

4. Shireen burning is near destined to happen. It has been too heavily foreshadowed to not happen.
 

5. Jon has enough Wildings and Night Watch fellows that support him to protect his long enough for Mel to do it. (You only need a few people barricades in a room) OR in a way similar to Dany in Game, he is in the pyre, too, but rises unburnt. 
 

6. So, does Shireen get burnt for Jon or for another purpose and Jon’s resurrection is the unintended side effect? Also, how does Patchface factor into this?

There is already a way to do this without silly sacrifices - the standard funeral rights of the red priests as observed by Thoros of Myr can bring people back from the dead.

Nobody is going to want to resurrect Jon Snow. His first life ended and he will live out his second life as a wolf as wargs are wont to do - that shall be it. Until Melisandre puts Jon on a pyre and breathes living flame in his mouth ... and his body comes back to life.

Then they might have to reunite body and spirit again ... causing further complications.

But if there is a resurrection which is going to work without silly human sacrifices and/or burnings it will be Jon's. George had built up this thing since ASoS.

It is also very obvious that the whole Lightbringer shtick is going to get another layer via Jon's magically transformed/imbued blood. Beric could ignite swords with his blood after his resurrection(s). Jon might be able to turn Longclaw into an actual burning Valyrian steel sword with his blood.

[Lady Rhodes]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Shireen belongs to Stannis.

It is a kind of understandable desire to shorten the story by trying to come up with ideas how certain plot points could be merged so the plot takes up speed ... but that's not going to happen with the Shireen sacrifice. That will have nothing to do with Jon Snow.

In fact, I cannot think about a cheaper and more silly story in context than the idea that somebody is going to grab Shireen for some pointless 'reason' to sacrifice her in any ritual pertaining to Jon ... and the idea that it will affect Jon only 'unintentionally' and Melisandre is just trying to 'resurrect' Stannis hundreds of leagues away is almost equally silly.

That's writing as bad as most of the sillier stuff in GoT.

In fact, I can't think about Shireen dying soon because it is pretty clear that whatever George has in store for Patchface will have to play out first. I don't think Patches would survive the death of his princess nor that some wildlings would want to feed and clothe and care for a lackwit.

Considering that Mel feels ominous around Patches he might actually have some role to play in the attack of the Others on the Wall and/or the eventual fall of the Wall. Although I don't know what role that could be nor how it will be set up.

I think, though, it could fit with some of my ideas about the Shivers and the Winter Fever being kind of 'magical plagues' being spread by the Others. Patches did have a strange (near-) death experience at sea ... and those plagues also came (sort of) from abroad. It might be the Others have ways to reach south of the Wall through/across the sea. After all, the Wall only stops their magic/advance on land.

There is already a way to do this without silly sacrifices - the standard funeral rights of the red priests as observed by Thoros of Myr can bring people back from the dead.

Nobody is going to want to resurrect Jon Snow. His first life ended and he will live out his second life as a wolf as wargs are wont to do - that shall be it. Until Melisandre puts Jon on a pyre and breathes living flame in his mouth ... and his body comes back to life.

Then they might have to reunite body and spirit again ... causing further complications.

But if there is a resurrection which is going to work without silly human sacrifices and/or burnings it will be Jon's. George had built up this thing since ASoS.

It is also very obvious that the whole Lightbringer shtick is going to get another layer via Jon's magically transformed/imbued blood. Beric could ignite swords with his blood after his resurrection(s). Jon might be able to turn Longclaw into an actual burning Valyrian steel sword with his blood.

I don’t disagree that there is plenty of textual evidence for Mel resurrecting Jon without sacrifice because of Beric and Thoros. But I do think that Shireen is going to be sacrificed and I think it is going to have unintended results.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I don’t disagree that there is plenty of textual evidence for Mel resurrecting Jon without sacrifice because of Beric and Thoros. But I do think that Shireen is going to be sacrificed and I think it is going to have unintended results.

Shireen will be sacrificed ... later by her father, after they have been reunited and he feels a need to do this. Whether this will have 'a result' at all I don't know.

The Shireen sacrifice George has been laying the groundwork since ACoK and ASoS. It is part of Stannis' story, nobody else's.

Any other plot line would be cheap. In fact, the strongest possible story there would be if Stannis himself comes up with the idea and insists on it, following Mel's earlier reasoning with Edric, etc. ... not if it something he is persuaded by Melisandre to do.

[Lady Rhodes]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Shireen will be sacrificed ... later by her father, after they have been reunited and he feels a need to do this. Whether this will have 'a result' at all I don't know.

The Shireen sacrifice George has been laying the groundwork since ACoK and ASoS. It is part of Stannis' story, nobody else's.

Any other plot line would be cheap. In fact, the strongest possible story there would be if Stannis himself comes up with the idea and insists on it, following Mel's earlier reasoning with Edric, etc. ... not if it something he is persuaded by Melisandre to do.

I actually agree with you. Perhaps where we diverge is that I am open to the possibility that the unintended consequence is that it affects Jon’s resurrection. I don’t think it is going to benefit Stannis at all. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I actually agree with you. Perhaps where we diverge is that I am open to the possibility that the unintended consequence is that it affects Jon’s resurrection. I don’t think it is going to benefit Stannis at all. 

Stannis is not there. He won't sacrifice his daughter while he is not there. And I don't think Jon is only going to return to life after Stannis finally returns to the Wall - which is not going to happen early in TWoW.

I must also say that magic having 'unintended (side) effects' strikes me as not that good writing, either. So far nothing like that happened with the spells we got in the books, and I don't like the idea Jon Goldenboy is somehow unintentionally favored by a monstrous sacrifice.

Depending how the Shireen sacrifice is done it should accomplish something ... but since we have no clue why she will be sacrificed it is very difficult to say. I think the problem there will be Stannis not being 'the savior' not so much the sacrifice/spell as such.

[Lady Rhodes]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis is not there. He won't sacrifice his daughter while he is not there. And I don't think Jon is only going to return to life after Stannis finally returns to the Wall - which is not going to happen early in TWoW.

I must also say that magic having 'unintended (side) effects' strikes me as not that good writing, either. So far nothing like that happened with the spells we got in the books, and I don't like the idea Jon Goldenboy is somehow unintentionally favored by a monstrous sacrifice.

Depending how the Shireen sacrifice is done it should accomplish something ... but since we have no clue why she will be sacrificed it is very difficult to say. I think the problem there will be Stannis not being 'the savior' not so much the sacrifice/spell as such.

Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo, and Dany seems like unintended side effects to me. 
 

You could argue that Mirri did know what she was doing and so it was not unintended, but magic like prophecy is a double edge blade. 

[Lord Varys]

49 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo, and Dany seems like unintended side effects to me.

I what way? Mirri was an intended ingredient of Dany's spell. And Mirri either fried Drogo's brain intentionally or performed a spell which wouldn't restore his mental faculties. She rather gleefully tells Dany that she only paid for life, after all.

49 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

You could argue that Mirri did know what she was doing and so it was not unintended, but magic like prophecy is a double edge blade. 

Magic might not work like you intend it, true ... but it most likely won't work for the benefit of some other dead guy. For instance, Qyburn's creature might one day run amok or no longer obey him ... that would be an unintended part of creating a zombie slave.

As Dalla put it, magic is a sword without a hilt ... which means it is still a sword, still a weapon, but it might be unpleasant, painful, and dangerous to use it. But it still might get the job done in the end.

[Lady Rhodes]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I what way? Mirri was an intended ingredient of Dany's spell. And Mirri either fried Drogo's brain intentionally or performed a spell which wouldn't restore his mental faculties. She rather gleefully tells Dany that she only paid for life, after all.

Magic might not work like you intend it, true ... but it most likely won't work for the benefit of some other dead guy. For instance, Qyburn's creature might one day run amok or no longer obey him ... that would be an unintended part of creating a zombie slave.

As Dalla put it, magic is a sword without a hilt ... which means it is still a sword, still a weapon, but it might be unpleasant, painful, and dangerous to use it. But it still might get the job done in the end.

I suppose that is where we can rest in our agreement: magic may not work how you intend it. 

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I suppose that is where we can rest in our agreement: magic may not work how you intend it. 

No, I think the impression is that it always works the way you intended. The cost might be too high or too unpleasant. So far we haven't heard anything about a spell which was supposed to do A but turned out to do B.