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The Winds of Winter: The Latest Info (updated 10 July 2022)


Werthead
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12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Sadly, I’ve come to accept this too. I think it could be overlooked if AFFC/ADWD at least fixed other issues, like half of the characters being way too young, but instead it exacerbated them. 2,000 pages of text that covered less than a year in-universe. 

I know it’s unpopular, but I’d rather he focused on Dunk and Egg and FnB instead. I think he knows how to write those through to the end.

I mostly enjoyed both books, but they are frustrating.  They’re leading up to a climax that never arrives.

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32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I mostly enjoyed both books, but they are frustrating.  They’re leading up to a climax that never arrives.

I think the biggest mistake George and his publishers have done  is not including the final battles in the Dance . which I believe might very well hurt Winds too . I mean , that book's gonna start with a conclusion , then it'll start from a beginning point, again! I liked Dance and Feast (as a package) better than the first three books . the first three were fun but most chapters in Dance and Feast were very well written short stories.  however , it is still quite frustrating that the books as a whole feel unfinished . 

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3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I think the biggest mistake George and his publishers have done  is not including the final battles in the Dance . which I believe might very well hurt Winds too . I mean , that book's gonna start with a conclusion , then it'll start from a beginning point, again! I liked Dance and Feast (as a package) better than the first three books . the first three were fun but most chapters in Dance and Feast were very well written short stories.  however , it is still quite frustrating that the books as a whole feel unfinished . 

I think Dany’s and Tyrion’s chapters in ADWD could easily have been cut by half, giving space for the two battles.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I think Dany’s and Tyrion’s chapters in ADWD could easily have been cut by half, giving space for the two battles.

I agree. I suspect some of the reason for their numerous chapters was their popularity. Dany-cult would have killed George if there were only 3-4 Dany chapters . meanwhile Tyrion spent 3 chapters getting drunk until he joined Griffs.

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5 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I agree. I suspect some of the reason for their numerous chapters was their popularity. Dany-cult would have killed George if there were only 3-4 Dany chapters . meanwhile Tyrion spent 3 chapters getting drunk until he joined Griffs.

I like Dany, but so often, less is more.  Dany only has six chapters in ASOS but they’re great.  Her first five chapters in ADWD are just spinning wheels.  Her story only comes to life at Daznak’s Pit.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I like Dany, but so often, less is more.  Dany only has six chapters in ASOS but they’re great.  Her first five chapters in ADWD are just spinning wheels.  Her story only comes to life at Daznak’s Pit.

you should tell that to George Martin . it certainly feels like his editing judgement is at times clouded when it comes to Daenerys , Tyrion and (in clash and aSoS ) Arya. the first three Tyrion chapters could easily turn into one . same goes for a lot of Dany chapters.  

Brienne's story in feast suffers from conclusion too, in my opinion . sure , she goes back to Cat and her vow and in Dance she goes to Jaimie ; but both characters needed that final confrontation . honestly , Jon's death and Bran's final vision is enough Cliffhanger for both books .

Edited by EggBlue
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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I know it’s unpopular, but I’d rather he focused on Dunk and Egg and FnB instead. I think he knows how to write those through to the end.

It is a long while since I bothered to follow what has been going on in any detail, but I had the impression that he had lost his way with Dunk and Egg as well. Hasn't The Wolves of Winterfell repeatedly been postponed?

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4 hours ago, A wilding said:

It is a long while since I bothered to follow what has been going on in any detail, but I had the impression that he had lost his way with Dunk and Egg as well. Hasn't The Wolves of Winterfell repeatedly been postponed?

The reason why GRRM has written so much about the Targaryens is because doing so won't spoil the ending of ASOIAF. I suspect that the SheWolves tale is too spoilery.

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On 12/19/2022 at 2:24 PM, Cas Stark said:

D&D turning out to be poor custodians of his story & plots & characters & themes, they at least finished it.  

George doesn’t believe in “themes” either. 

(6:15) 

Then again it’s not surprising. Most fantasy authors personally despise literary concepts and find them pretentious.  

Patrick Rothfuss, author of The Name of the Wind laughs at any question regarding his series having imagery or motif that doesn’t have a literal meaning. 

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17 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But alas, the end destination doesn’t change no matter how much tinkering he does.

I mean, as long as the books aren't published, he can change anything he wants, including the ending. The question is whether he wants to do that or not.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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22 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, as long as the books aren't published, he can change anything he wants, including the ending. The question is whether he wants to do that or not.

He should. But for some weird reason he is reluctant to do so. I guess because of clues and butlers, you know he already wrote the foreshadowing so he doesn’t want to change the answer. 
 

But if he doesn’t like it he absolutely should. Foreshadowing is kinda dumb anyways.

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Should we try to guess what characters are causing GRRM the most trouble? It's probably not Tryion, since he finished his story. My guess would be anything at The Wall. I get the feeling GRRM is having a hard time writing Jon's return and flipping and flopping on certain things with that plot. I also think figuring out what to do with Vic is causing him trouble. The guy wasn't suppose to be around this long.

Edited by sifth
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As far as themes go, Stephen King said something interesting about how he thinks that literary devices are probably unconscious on writers’ parts (i.e. GRRM might not be using deliberate symbolism for ice and fire, but they are associated with certain things in his mind, which is why they are used when they are).

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18 minutes ago, sifth said:

Should we try to guess what characters are causing GRRM the most trouble?

GRRM has always said that Bran is the hardest character for him to write, and I don't think that has changed. He has mentioned several characters that he's working on in his blog posts over the years, and Bran was never one of them.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

To be fair, the only character ending I really object to is Bran becoming king. The endings for the other characters make sense, more or less, IMO. Where the show failed is the buildup to them.

We haven't seen GRRM's character endings. The show was a perversion. GRRM has described it as an alternate universe to his book. Hibberd did an AMA on reddit and revealed that the main 6 endings were very different in the books. This further proves GRRM's ending is still something he's sticking too. 

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2 minutes ago, MissM said:

We haven't seen GRRM's character endings. The show was a perversion. GRRM has described it as an alternate universe to his book.

GRRM has said many times that he told D&D the endings for the major characters (which I assume includes Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran), and said both before season 8 and after it that the endings will be more or less the same. It's the road to those endings that will be different. 

Obviously this doesn't include major characters from the books that have an impact on the story (Arianne, Aegon, etc...) but the result will be the same.

And yes, GRRM might have changed his mind on many things, but that's where things stood in 2019.

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Bran’s ending was first laid out in ACOK. He’s just been so disconnected from the rest of the story for so long now that people forget this.

Re: Victarion, I think that GRRM must have always had something else planned for him, because so far there’s been no reason for him to be a POV. Everything about his story could have been covered by Aeron, Asha, and now Barristan. He doesn’t strike me as GRRM’s favorite character to write (compared to Arya and Tyrion, whose chapters could have easily been cut in half), so I’m inclined to believe he has a greater narrative purpose.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Re: Victarion, I think that GRRM must have always had something else planned for him, because so far there’s been no reason for him to be a POV.

Well, we know from early drafts of AFFC that Victarion and Euron were initially supposed to go to Slavers Bay together and Victarion was supposed to die early on. However, GRRM came up with a different story for Euron, with the attack on the Reach and all the creepy magic stuff, so Victarion had to go the Meereen alone and, I guess, remain a POV for longer than originally intended.

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